Online list and privacy [split from: TMW promotion]

[yaypunkrock]

I've read some of this topic and thought I'd chime in. At the moment "guild" and "AuctionBot" both use the online list to figure out when people are online as well as the in client online list feature on manaplus. So another solution for these would need to be found if it was removed.

Assuming argul's data would be interesting to analyse it could be released by first anonymizing usernames, a simple/safe suggestion would be to just hash each username with some added random salt. This could be released freely as it wouldn't identify any user but would allow those so-inclined to fiddle with R or some other statistical package of their liking...

[Chicka-Maria]

Just ask Chicka how she would troll or harass someone with these data.

I understand you dont have the mind of a troll, Or you dont try to think of how it would be used in a negative way.. But try and think about it...people would just stay online until the specific time someone they want to troll is online..the online statistics would help them average it out of how long to wait or exacly when to be online. There are more examples if you think of them, so please do.

as for the online list being different. alot of the people wont bother recording data, alot of people are to lazy to do so. So who wouldn't want the data right infront of them instead of having to do work themselves? People would probably just look at the statistics because they are bored. Alot of trolls wont record the data themselves because it wouldnt be worth it for them to have to do work to get the data but if its right infront of them..hey why not use it

Regards,

[o11c]

I'm noticing quite a scarcity of ordinary players having input into this thread.

[Nard]

Just ask Chicka how she would troll or harass someone with these data.

I understand you dont have the mind of a troll, Or you dont try to think of how it would be used in a negative way.. But try and think about it...

This is exactly why i ask your help for: I tried and could not find what information I could get that could annoy someone, that I could not get with our clients, forum, gm log and so on. I hoped you could enlighten me about it because of your long experience of this game.
Now if I replace original names with encrypted ones or simply other ones by a wisely chosen process I double dare anyone here to crack the code. It would take months of work and as much information that the one included in these data for a very poor result.

people would just stay online until the specific time someone they want to troll is online

Isn't it the case actually? Yes it is; there is no need to bother yourself with Mbytes of data

the online statistics would help them average it out of how long to wait or exaclty when to be online.

yes Mom, increase of data increases also the time range they will have to lookup while giving one or two digits of precision on the 99% confidence interval. Here again I don't need these data because I dont need such precision.

There are more examples if you think of them, so please do.

the only one I could find is about GMs because Frost and mrgrey implicitely asked to think about it. If I decided to annoy them I could with that say something like : "on this day in this time interval there was a great need (?) and there was no Administrator-GM online. and you were playing with your alt xyz" What a big troll! it is nowhere written that GMs have to be in game 24/365 and have no time for quietness, on the opposite it is written that they are players chosen among players. (Sorry Tiana to have disturbed you once last year)

as for the online list being different. a lot of the people wont bother recording data, alot of people are to lazy to do so. So who wouldn't want the data right in front of them instead of having to do work themselves? People would probably just look at the statistics because they are bored. Alot of trolls wont record the data themselves because it wouldn't be worth it for them to have to do work to get the data but if its right infront of them..hey why not use it

As Argul showed it recording the data is very easy. (more I verified that you can easily find ready made scripts to do it)
Gathering them is over a long time range is a bit more problematic and that is the point of the discussion Mom.
Now, even if you have them what would you do with them? reading the text files (or even a nice summary of them provided you know how to make one) will take you days before you may find something useful because you don't know what you are seeking for.

Finally retrieving global TMW statistical information over a large period of time, evolution of the mean number of players over time for example, has no relation with privacy, and can be an index of the impact of events, quest releases... It is in my opinion useful to developers and administrators, just as are Matt's site statistics. Perhaps they have no interest in them, if so, they just have to say it.
o11c has said in this thread he had no reason to trust players, maybe he is right; this is precisely why the whole (names encoded) data packet has to be available/accessible with any summary of these data: he can control the job has been well done if he wants to. If not, a stalker, or a troll could easily say that the author of the calculations has done them over partial or truncated data.

I repeat I don't find here anything funny or worth to Joke at.If I thought so, I would not spend that much time to answer you and other contributors in such a detailed way.

Nard

[Chicka-Maria]

okay nard, ive explained to you in my posts already my examples how trolls can use them, why they would, and the difference between giving the data and making them getting it themselves, if you don't understand them please read my posts again.


Regards,

[Nard]

okay nard, ive explained to you in my posts already my examples how trolls can use them, why they would, and the difference between giving the data and making them getting it themselves, if you don't understand them please read my posts again.

I don't think you have, Mom. I carefully read them. And you didn't give any example. On the opposite you just repeated what others said, and showed that you did not understand the point of the subject.
You did not explain anything between "giving the data" and "getting them", Frost and mrgrey did and complained because they felt it implied their privacy, Argul did, I did.
Do I have to explain you what the terms encrypt and encode mean. I can if you have not courage enough to take a dictionary.

regards;

Nard

[Chicka-Maria]

Im sorry if you cant see my examples, but im tired of hearing the same thing over again and its not helping. Can someone lock the topic? clearly its not getting anywhere anyway.

Regards,

[Nard]

have a look on Matt's sites stats then, maybe they are easier to understand, they are colored.

Nard

[Nard]

I've read some of this topic and thought I'd chime in. At the moment "guild" and "AuctionBot" both use the online list to figure out when people are online as well as the in client online list feature on manaplus. So another solution for these would need to be found if it was removed.

Assuming argul's data would be interesting to analyse it could be released by first anonymizing usernames, a simple/safe suggestion would be to just hash each username with some added random salt. This could be released freely as it wouldn't identify any user but would allow those so-inclined to fiddle with R or some other statistical package of their liking...

my simplest suggestion
Name----> random name in random language dictionary
decryption algorithms are unusable.

[Chicka-Maria]

I dont think you get what i meant, i mean statistics of players online habbits.....showing the players name according to when they were online. for example http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 7&start=15

Have a look at arguls statistics he used for mrgreys nomination. Information like this should not be revealed, (of course it was up for good use for mrgreys poll) for peoples privacy...THIS is what i mean.

Regards,

[Nard]

I dont think you get what i meant, i mean statistics of players online habbits.....showing the players name according to when they were online. for example http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 7&start=15

Have a look at arguls statistics he used for mrgreys nomination. Information like this should not be revealed, (of course it was up for good use for mrgreys poll) for peoples privacy...THIS is what i mean.

Regards,

You begin to understand Chicka, you are on the good way. I was the one who quoted these stats upper in this thread.
Regards
Nard

[Chicka-Maria]

I dont think you get what i meant, i mean statistics of players online habbits.....showing the players name according to when they were online. for example http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 7&start=15

Have a look at arguls statistics he used for mrgreys nomination. Information like this should not be revealed, (of course it was up for good use for mrgreys poll) for peoples privacy...THIS is what i mean.

Regards,

You begin to understand Chicka, you are on the good way. I was the one who quoted these stats upper in this thread.
Regards
Nard

Then surely you understand now why these stats (as the one i quoted above) shouldnt be handed out publicly. hopefully

I will stop arguing a meaningless battle, this threat isnt going anywhere as it is.

Have fun!

Regards,

[Nard]

Matt's site statistics: an example of the good use of the daily data
awesome TMW online stats! yay!

you will see that Matt, as every good statistician, lists his data:

http://www.themanaworld.org/stats/

Nard

[Nard]

Then surely you understand now why these stats (as the one i quoted above) shouldnt be handed out publicly. hopefully

sure , they were an intolerable intrusion in mrgrey's privacy and a nasty GM spy. Why didn't you tell anything about them at that time?

[mistergrey]

Nard, it is understood that this information Can be gathered by anybody. The point is, how many WOULD go to the trouble, before being given the tools to do so? I never had a problem with Pjotr having that data, or even posting the data that he did in my GM poll. He is not some random player - he is a developer, and I have some amount of trust towards them, as well as being friendly with him. This was only my time online for a certain period of time - it is not the same as giving everyone the tools to easily have an up to date list of my online times. I do not have any such trust for every random player who can make more mischievous use of them.

[Players can also harass people and whisper each other insults - this does not justify releasing a feature that will automatically do it for you, and pick choice insults for you. Sure, somebody could make an InsultBot... but would that be authorized by TMW? Surely not. I realize that this is a bad example, since the online list itself is not against the rules, nor is this script/the logs something being offered as part of the game client. When it comes to the bad things players can do with data like this though, the saving grace is that most are too lazy to go to a huge effort, especially when they don't have the knowledge to do many things themselves.