Dear TMW Community.

[meway]

I will not branch TMW community - it would be dividing something I built and which has a sense only as a whole.

And I am not pissed off on o11c, as he is no match for me (I am a decent person, trustworthy person and I do not get what I want by abusing someone's trust).

Regards.

I am interested to still host my own TMW server, since there are quite a few people who wanted a fork, they may contact me via email platyna at platinum.linux.pl

http://synapticnulship.com/blog/wp-cont ... 33396.jpeg
http://hosiplan.com/memes/faces/genius.png

Also tesla discovered AC soooo ..

[Platyna]

I changed my mind, and? The choice - let the TMW die slowly in hands of irresponsible people or to divide it (which also will be not the same TMW as we know) isn't easy one.

And why you spam such large images here? You got paid to disrupt that thread or what?

Regards.

[meway]

I changed my mind, and? The choice - let the TMW die slowly in hands of irresponsible people or to divide it (which also will be not the same TMW as we know) isn't easy one.

And why you spam such large images here? You got paid to disrupt that thread or what?

Regards.

If its not easy than what in your thought process made you decide against it if I may ask? What about a new game? would you host an entirely different project? the images seemed to be fitting and I just grabbed them from google. I wouldn't accept money to be a troll when I can do it freely but my questions are legitamate. Why aren't you on irc it would be much easier to chat...

[Platyna]

Meway, I stated clearly why. And I don't want to chat with you.

Regards.

[Pihro]

At one point, LoF was intended to go to an entirely different theme, steampunk.

I realize this is unrelated to most of the rest of this thread, but the theme is wanted but currently not available due to lack of willing artists...which has also been a long term issue for TMW, but I am planning to take a steampunk turn of quests and replacement of magic in the near future. (Sorry all for being off topic here.)

[blackrazor]

I decided to check out the GPL licence terms and conditions, mainly because I was curious. I went here:

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-license ... PLStandFor

Specifically, this paragraph:

Is there some way that I can GPL the output people get from use of my program? For example, if my program is used to develop hardware designs, can I require that these designs must be free?

In general this is legally impossible; copyright law does not give you any say in the use of the output people make from their data using your program. If the user uses your program to enter or convert his own data, the copyright on the output belongs to him, not you. More generally, when a program translates its input into some other form, the copyright status of the output inherits that of the input it was generated from.

From what I understand of this, TMW is using the GPL licence, and so anyone can run a server using the software and art assets, and have it connected to legally by any mana-compatible client.

However the output, the player savefiles specifically, do not inherit the GPL licence, and they belong to the person or organization that is running the software on their own hardware.

For example, I am legally allowed to obtain a copy of the TMW server program file(s) and I am allowed to run it on my computer. My copy of TMW server does not belong to me, but any player datafiles / savefiles that are output by the program do belong to me.

Please excuse me, if I have misunderstood the GPL, but in the advent that I am correct, it would seem that all the playerfiles / datafiles that were hosted on platinum are the actual property of Platyna, and are not part of GPL unless she chooses to make it so. Under those conditions, no one would have the authority to take these from her, even if they honestly heartfelt that it was in the best interests of the game to take them.

I'm not trying to get into what is "best for the game", but I'm merely attempting to ask a legal question based on what I found in the GPL licencing, on their site.

EDIT:

1) By "take", I am also referring to making copies, or any other action that would normally violate a non-free non-GPL copyright ownership.

2) Much has been made of Bjorn and Elvenprogrammer in all of this, but while the GPL covers their development work, I don't think it covers the output from the platinum server (or any other TMW server) unless specific legal arrangements were made prior, where Platyna would have assigned ownership of these files either to the community or (those) other developers. But in the absence of such official documentation, I would guess that the datafiles (program output) belong solely to any given host.

Even if a host is declared "official", I would doubt that this changes ownership of those datafiles, unless it is officially mentioned somewhere, in some legal contract, somewhere.

EDIT (more):

By host, I am referring to an actual person or organization that officially takes legal responsibility for the server's output, by virtue of installing and running the server program and making it available online. Host does not refer to an ISP, server farm, data hosting center, cloud computing, etc, as these are simply mediums that allow the files to run and they typically come with contracts that assign the legal responsibility to the actual person or organization that is using the service to install, run, and make available the software.

[Frost]

I decided to check out the GPL licence terms and conditions, mainly because I was curious. I went here:

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-license ... PLStandFor

However the output, the player savefiles specifically, do not inherit the GPL licence, and they belong to the person or organization that is running the software on their own hardware.

...it would seem that all the playerfiles / datafiles that were hosted on platinum are the actual property of Platyna, and are not part of GPL unless she chooses to make it so. Under those conditions, no one would have the authority to take these from her, even if they honestly heartfelt that it was in the best interests of the game to take them.

I'm not trying to get into what is "best for the game", but I'm merely attempting to ask a legal question based on what I found in the GPL licencing, on their site.

If you intend to ask a legal question, that would phrased as "who owns the server data?"

I am unable to find your bolded citation in the GPL.
I am unable to find where the GPL specifies ownership of the save files.
I am unable to find where the GPL defines Platyna as both the owner of her server and the legal entity of The Mana World.

[blackrazor]

Hi Frost, thanks for replying.

The paragraph I quoted from the GPL website is enclosed in |Quote| tabs, and is strangely missing from your quote of my post. It refers specifically to the ownership of the output of GPL-licenced software.

I will re-post it here:

Is there some way that I can GPL the output people get from use of my program? For example, if my program is used to develop hardware designs, can I require that these designs must be free?

In general this is legally impossible; copyright law does not give you any say in the use of the output people make from their data using your program. If the user uses your program to enter or convert his own data, the copyright on the output belongs to him, not you. More generally, when a program translates its input into some other form, the copyright status of the output inherits that of the input it was generated from.

The link is here:

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-license ... #GPLOutput

[blackrazor]

If you intend to ask a legal question, that would phrased as "who owns the server data?"

The question I am asking is: "Who owns the output data from a GPL server-software?"

I am unable to find your bolded citation in the GPL.

The {Bold} text is mine. I used {QUOTE} for the part from the GPL-faq from their website. Sorry for any confusion.

I am unable to find where the GPL specifies ownership of the save files.

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-license ... #GPLOutput

It applies to the ownership of program output, which presumably should include save-files.

I am unable to find where the GPL defines Platyna as both the owner of her server and the legal entity of The Mana World.

I never made this claim. I merely suggest that if she owned the platinum server, then she may very well also own the savefiles generated by the iteration of the TMWserver that ran on it.

[Bjørn]

Dear blackrazor,

You are obviously completely right that the player data is not covered by the GPL (good heavens!). However, you are wrong in your conclusion that it thus must be owned by Platyna.

When Platyna took over the hosting of the TMW server from Ultramichy, there was indeed no written agreement about who would own the data produced by the server. However, most of the project was managed by Common Sense, and common sense is that you'd never choose a host for the server when you expect that host to claim ownership over the data. One needs to be able to move to another server when the need arises, after all.

On the server side, TMW has always been managed by a group of admins. They gained these rights because the project needed admins and these people have shown their skill and have shown they can be trusted. As a group, they manage the server-side data and can be considered the owners of it.

What happened here was a split of this group, with Platyna on one side and all the others on the another. The data ended up on both sides, and both sides are in my opinion entitled to hold on to it. We should be able to trust each side to handle it with care, like they always have.

Best regards,
Bjørn

[blackrazor]

Hi Bjorn, thanks for replying.

I appreciate that you also see that the GPL does not protect player data. And I agree with the "good heavens" too, but such is life.

Unfortunately, there is no license called "common sense". To the best of my knowledge, Platyna ran the platinum iteration of TMW-server as if she owned it, which has been claimed by many as core to the current break.

Nevertheless, by the GPL, if Platyna did in fact run the platinum iteration like she owned it, then she did in fact own the datafiles, unless you (Bjorn), Elven, her (Platyna) made specific legal arrangements otherwise.

GPL does not protect a development team's right to the output savefiles from a server iteration, even an official server iteration, even if common sense would hope otherwise. The development team isn't even entitled to an un-authorized copy, as that would violate the copyright that by default, protects these savefiles.

Personally, I would have hoped there existed a TMW organizational constitution that would have governed exactly these sorts of situations, but sadly, that does not seem to be the case.

[Frost]

Edit: I removed my line-by-line rebuttal because it's all the same: you make extravagant claims without supporting them.
Stop watching soap operas about lawyers.

Edit:
I agree with everything that Bjørn said about the practical situation.
In the end, The Mana World is bigger than any single person (except perhaps ElvenProgrammer). I see my official role as purely to support, and I expect no compensation now or in the future. I claim no ownership of any game data (including but not limited to account data and logs). I hope and believe that others who contribute feel the same way.
Just...please stop presenting fake legal arguments. I'm no lawyer, and you are even less of one.

[blackrazor]

@Frost

I already gave you the citation, multiple times, that your GPL-protected serversoft does not have its GPL-protection extended to the output files it generates. The GPL-faq webpage specifically states that the output files are owned by the person running the software, not the creators of the software. I've already quoted it twice in this thread; I don't want to create spam by quoting it a third time.

Copyright is what it is. The onus is not on me to cite copyright law to you; I was merely suggesting that based on what I quoted (twice) from the GPL-faq, that the output files from the platinum serversoft belong to Platyna. Platyna stated it was her work (output files) that was taken without her permission at the start of this thread, so that clearly implies she considered herself the owner of said data, and that its copying for the purpose of moving the server was un-authorized by her. Those two pieces of information (GPL-quote regarding ownership and Platyna's clear sense of ownership), taken together, should merit consideration.

This is a forum, not a court of law. You, I, and everyone else are (supposedly) free to bring suppositions, personal opinion, legal opinion, etc. to these discussion without having to file a legal brief. I did link to the GPL-faq page, and to the specific quote which I felt was the most relevant to the discussion at hand.

If you have a good counterpoint to make, then by all means please do. Feel free to cite the GPL, or other relevant things, to support any other point of view. But you do yourself a disservice, I feel, by bringing up Guadalupe-Hidalgo or soap operas about lawyers. If you want to have a serious discussion, then cool, I welcome that.

[blackrazor]

Edit:
I agree with everything that Bjørn said about the practical situation.

Me, too.

In the end, The Mana World is bigger than any single person (except perhaps ElvenProgrammer).

Elven is as limited by the GPL nature of this project as any other member of the team. He doesn't own the data output from a specific TMWserver-iteration that he isn't running, any more or less than anyone else. He deserves respect, of course, but so do Bjorn, Platyna, You, Jen, and quite frankly everyone else, too.

I see my official role as purely to support, and I expect no compensation now or in the future. I claim no ownership of any game data (including but not limited to account data and logs). I hope and believe that others who contribute feel the same way.

It's cool that you feel this way about yourself, but you don't get to say it about others. How Platyna feels about ownership of output from software that she ran on her machine for years, is up to her, not you or I.

Just...please stop presenting fake legal arguments. I'm no lawyer, and you are even less of one.

If you are no lawyer, then how do you know my legal opinions (not arguments; it's not official) are fake?

Please cite where in the body of human logic and philosophy how I can be less than nothing (without being a negative number).

Instead of just tearing my opinion down, why not try instead to build your own opinion up.

[Platyna]

Dear blackrazor,

You are obviously completely right that the player data is not covered by the GPL (good heavens!). However, you are wrong in your conclusion that it thus must be owned by Platyna.

When Platyna took over the hosting of the TMW server from Ultramichy, there was indeed no written agreement about who would own the data produced by the server. However, most of the project was managed by Common Sense, and common sense is that you'd never choose a host for the server when you expect that host to claim ownership over the data. One needs to be able to move to another server when the need arises, after all.

On the server side, TMW has always been managed by a group of admins. They gained these rights because the project needed admins and these people have shown their skill and have shown they can be trusted. As a group, they manage the server-side data and can be considered the owners of it.

What happened here was a split of this group, with Platyna on one side and all the others on the another. The data ended up on both sides, and both sides are in my opinion entitled to hold on to it. We should be able to trust each side to handle it with care, like they always have.

Best regards,
Bjørn

This is not true. You both left five years ago. TMW was managed exclusively by me. Frost, Jenalya and o11c were given access to these files, but I never relieved my control over them, and they never were project admins. I have also never allowed to copy the files.

These files belongs to me, as I have took over the project after you both left and I am the original service provider, you and Elven just allowed to steal them by people who never were project admins at all. I am currenty the only project admin of TMW, not you Bjorn and not you Elven, as you have resigned from the position five years ago (you were head of development team anyway, not the game admins, on your own request BTW).

When I was given these files by Ultramichy we had 5 players online and very little data. Basically all of work on the game server was done by me or by my request. These files therefore belongs to me and I did not give you the permission to use it. So hand me the copy and remove all other copies.

Regards.