Nard says goodbye

[Cassy]

Thanks for you reply o11c.

The problem is that whenever a thread happens, it's usually because that contributor is ragequitting. In this case, Nard is ragequitting after Crust deleted some spam posts that he tried to make to prove a (fallacious) point.

Hmm... I thought he was quitting because of the some differences about the graphic licences?
He said goodbye in this context, not in the thread about the Egyptian NPC/Monsters.
But nevermind, I really don't care about the reason, just the principle.

It's hard to do that since Nard has been very disruptive lately. He doesn't seem to be willing to talk about things; he's saying "do what I suggest, and screw the legal text".

I understand you don't feel very well when someone ragequits.
I'd still say at least "thanks" to not be (or seem to be) unthankful.
You can still add some words that the way of ragequitting is not the right one and not very nice.

When it's about the image, speak in neutral words, not in feelings.
In RL this is the perfect way to lose both customers and also potential customers.
Replace "customer" with "devs" and you know another reason why I care about this that much.

[Alige]

I'm getting worried reading this or similar threads.
If I really start contributing some things, will I be treated like this too?
Like being a nobody?

• What do you expect? Of course you will be treated like such! Everyone has, I was too, more than anybody.
• This project is in serious danger, it always has. Its awesome community is falling apart, thanks to, lets face it, o11c.
• I heard about another project that do care about its contributors, feel free to check it out!

Note to o11c: I have nothing against you personally but honestly, since you arrived and took TMW from Platyna's hands, the number of players didn't stop decreasing. You're killing this community dude, wake up!

Best regards to Nard,
I hope to still see you on Evol!
--Alige

[veryape]

I'm sad to see you stop contributing to the wiki (and possibly other things you might be working on).

Thanks for everything you've done, I relied on the wiki quite much when I was a new player and really appreciate the time that has gone into that work. It really helped me when I've been stuck and still provides me useful info from time to time.

Thanks for all the time and effort you put into this game!

[Nard]

Nard, I will also write you a PM, but as I mentioned in above post, I also want to say "thanks" here.

Thanks for teaching me some things about the wiki and GitHub and for some nice discussions we had

I'm very happy you "only" leave the admin team and stay as a player.

In TMW a wiki admin is not considered, as an administrator, (nor a developer or even as a contributor). Wiki contributors are just players as well. and that's fine like that, except when maintenance is required.

[Big Crunch]

I'm getting worried reading this or similar threads.
If I really start contributing some things, will I be treated like this too?
Like being a nobody?

• What do you expect? Of course you will be treated like such! Everyone has, I was too, more than anybody.
• This project is in serious danger, it always has. Its awesome community is falling apart, thanks to, lets face it, o11c.
• I heard about another project that do care about its contributors, feel free to check it out!

Note to o11c: I have nothing against you personally but honestly, since you arrived and took TMW from Platyna's hands, the number of players didn't stop decreasing. You're killing this community dude, wake up!

Best regards to Nard,
I hope to still see you on Evol!
--Alige

Incorrect info. o11c did not take TMW from platyna, it was agreed upon by the entire group. o11c can be removed just like anyone else in the committee.


Regarding the Nard situation. It seems as though the license thread got taken WAY too personal by the parties involved. We are doing what we can to get real legal advice on the issue. Like my father always told me "Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one and they all stink". I say that to impress that TMW is attempting to prevent legal action from being taken against the Committee members regarding the content we use, and regardless of my opinion, Nards, o11c's, or anyone elses, at the end of the day we will take the route that best protects the project and our individual persons.

Now, I would recommend that everyone take a step away from the issues and clear their minds and emotions.

BC

[Nard]

The problem is that whenever a thread happens, it's usually because that contributor is ragequitting. In this case, Nard is ragequitting after Crust deleted some spam posts that he tried to make to prove a (fallacious) point.

I am not rage quitting. I am angry that's certain. because crush deleted spam posts? NO Thats because crush caccuses me unfairly to be out of topic, removes some posts (not the trollin "code" ones") and let yours where you suggest to other players with a hidden link to nuke me, thus my new signature. In your sentence you just showed who has fallacious arguments and why I do not have the will (and tolerance at the moment)to work besides you anymore; You are the first responsible of my angryness, then crush, then the trolls by Ablu.

It's hard to do that since Nard has been very disruptive lately. He doesn't seem to be willing to talk about things; he's saying "do what I suggest, and screw the legal text".

when you are able to read the bottom on this page http://www.gnu.org/licenses/licenses.en.html (it may take ages) you are able to give an opinion.

We're certainly sad that there will now be less effort toward the wiki, but ... no amount of hard work can overcome his manner of departure.

Certainly you are not sad, because you have now no one to poke you about wiki updates and can rest again in the code rewritring that preventrs you to bring additional features to the server.

Nard did request that, and then immediately complained about it. I can't say this is really surprising, after the last few weeks.

once a gain you lie:

Btw thank you Crush, It took Bjorn more than 2 months to make me a wiki admin, you did it in less than a minute
One could probably think that I was not really appreciated. but NP.

I do not see any complaint, just a thank and a remark about how wiki bureaucrats work and consider the others. I guess you are the next one o11c.

[Nard]

This message has been submitted successfully, but it will need to be approved by a moderator before it is publicly viewable. You will be notified when your post has been approved.

[Freeyorp101]

The decision to require GPL was a shortsighted one, but what's done is done, and TMW has to pick up the pieces as best as it can.

The popular desired replacement seems to be CC-BY-SA. Unfortunately, this has a viral nature that conflicts with the GPL's, so TMW can't just immediately drop the old GPL requirements. TMW has to track down people to get their permission to use CC-BY-SA, and replace the works for which permission can't be obtained. This means that at no point will people be unable to combine works within TMW.

I don't think that anyone was trying to malign artists at any point.


I didn't realise the implications of o11c's link, and just how nasty it was, when I was skimming through things earlier. If I had noticed, I would have removed it then; in any case, I've removed it now.


---Freeyorp

[Nard]

The decision to require GPL was a shortsighted one, but what's done is done, and TMW has to pick up the pieces as best as it can....

Once again The topic is "Nard says goodbye", Your post should be in allow/switch CC BY SA. sorry.


The project is complex? ok Maybe there is no simple solution. Let's look at it. the division is obvious

1. Server side
   1. Server code- tmwa: Obviously GPL applies.
   2. So called "Server-data" This is mainly code except config files and scripts. GPL
   3. Scripts and related: this can be more tricky as it mixes text and code. Gnu says that you may consider using "exception" Let's forget about it at the moment.
   4. The game data: Player private info. They are absolutely private and they are under the Host's responsibility; at the moment as there is no other moral person in charge of them except agreements I am not aware about.
2. Client side
   1. Client same problem as game data code should be concerned with GPL, Major original graphics CC BY SA.
   2. Game data: xml stuff can be GPL while graphics and music can be CC BY SA
   3. Players preferences are of course private

I don't see any problem with that you give the sources or data where. This means that you can call the project a free one in the common sense meaning but not in the GPL one. If you have no problem to call this a project (server and clients are separated ones) I cannot see the point.

As a side point: not all the project is GPL: some files are missing: Magic spells for example. Which license are they?

[Nard]

I didn't realise the implications of o11c's link, and just how nasty it was, when I was skimming through things earlier. If I had noticed, I would have removed it then; in any case, I've removed it now.

---Freeyorp

Thank You

[ChefChelios]

i post this here coz the other topic is locked... this message is from Nard and i did just copy&past it... regards CC




Now I cannot defend myself:
NOTE I could not publish this post which was even off topic
There were two:

crush wrote:
I am sorry, but I don't agree with you in this case. I asked as a forum moderator to stop pondering this topic. You ignored this. When the instructions I make as a moderator are ignored, I must act administratively. I had no other choice.

I posted an in topic reply. but it was removed. YI said roughly: gnu recommend other licensing for free artand uses CC for some of it's documents

If TMWC 's decision is already taken, then close the topic, as long as it is open we can discuss about it and I can say that GPL is nonsense regarding art. Or is only one opinion allowed
(pm)
crush wrote:
I will put you off the moderation queue when you promise that you will from now on respect my moderation instructions.

I understand that as I have special instructions for you, promise you follow them. where is it written you have to promise something to a specific person?


crush wrote:
Then this discussion is over. I asked the TMW Committee to decide with an internal poll if I will stay moderator or Nard will be banned.

Now I am even not able to defend myself in front of community.

missing quotes in previous mail


crush wrote:
There is no specific, unpublished rule for you. I expect everyone to follow moderative instructions after I published them.

Note: Crush also promised:

crush wrote:
I will approve your postings even when I disagree with them, as long as they are not disrupting development.


Nard

[o11c]

i post this here coz the other topic is locked... this message is from Nard and i did just copy&past it... regards CC

Please do not attempt to override a moderator action.

[ChefChelios]

pfft...

[Frost]

This conversation makes me sad. Each of the people involved has the best intentions, and each has worked hard within their abilities and time. Nobody has earned this conflict.

Nard specifically mentioned how difficult it is to make even small changes, like upgrade from MediaWiki 1.16.1 to 1.20.5.
I accept full responsibility for this. I set up a staging "TMW server" and copied the wiki database. I read the upgrade instructions and scanned Release Notes to see what we were getting into. At that point, real life matters started requiring more attention, and I didn't pass this work off to someone else to finish it.

For 2 months, Nard has been waiting on this change. I stopped responding to his requests for status. I don't blame him for being frustrated. I've begun talking with other admins about how I can better communicate and coordinate and hand off tasks if I can't finish them. Nard and TMW deserve better.

The wiki was my first way to contribute to the game. I was excited to see Nard take leadership of it. He did a great job, and I'm very sad that he ultimately lacked the support he needed to succeed in that role.


The license debate has been thoroughly thrashed in other threads by better people than I. While there's plenty of frustration, all I see are people who put their hearts into making TMW better. Nobody likes to see their energy get sucked up by conflict instead of accomplishing great things.


I had more to write, but that last sentence sums it up. We're all poorer for this.

Nard, thank you for all your years of work to improve TMW. Although we don't always agree on details, I have the greatest respect for your intelligence, your skill, and your integrity. I'm sorry you've run into walls when you try to move the game forward. I hope you remain active in whatever way you can, and I look forward to great conversations like we used to have before TMW B.S. took over.

[Johanne Laliberté]

Crush wrote:
Hello Nard

You are angry, and I can understand that. I would be furious too, in your situation. You are smart and you are right about something, and people just don't want to understand that you are right. And even when you keep telling them over and over again they refuse to understand. And now there is that evil forum mod who hates you and wants to stop you from telling people that they are wrong, just because he has a power complex.

But before you give in to your anger and destroy everything you have here, I would like to give you a chance to cool down. I have now put you on moderation queue. From now on, each of your posts will have to be approved by a moderator. This is in no way an attempt to bully you or to stop you from stating your opinion. It is just to give you a chance to cool down a bit and make you think what you are doing before you post. When your posts are constructive and on-topic, you will have no problem getting them reviewed. I am also not doing this in an attempt to prevent you from saying anything I disagree with. I will approve your postings even when I disagree with them, as long as they are not disrupting development.

I know that you are now likely thinking about registering a new account, because you refuse to let some moderator who is wrong and doesn't know how to do his job stop you from writing the truth. But before you do that, I would like you to think about where this will lead. When you would do that, you would only leave me one option, and that would be to ban you on sight, and when that shouldn't help to ask the server admin to ip-ban you. I don't want to do this because it would be a lot of work for us all and would destroy any chance for ever working together with you, but it would be my only option. What else would you as the moderator do in this situation?

Is this stupid dispute that important to you? Just because you can't be wrong about how to interprete the GPL?

Regards

I deny you to "give me any chance to cool down" because the only thing you do is putting oil on fire, the only things that could make me cool down is that I get public apologies from o11c (Then I'll change my signature back to a reasonable one), and you; just as your accusations were public.
I can imagine that I could have thought that Ablu's post s were tells instead of believing they were just opinions from someone who has little practice, and reply to explain. I can recognize that the tone he employed made me upset and that I could have been more kind in my answers.
But Yes, I publicly say you are unfair in this case:
You were unfair when you didnt remove this o11c's post: viewtopic.php?p=134319#p134319 which is not only out of topic, but trolling in a content development thread.
You were unfair when you referred to two lines in my reply to Jaxad, just to say wrongly that I was out of topic.
You were unfair to remove several posts that were'n't mine under angryness and bring them back without a single word of explanation (I even do not say excuses, and I do not care about the ridiculous source code that was here only to underline your contradictions).
Finally, you were unfair to remove my last post which was in the heart of Topic where I quoted Gnu. (quote follows so users and TMWC can judge)
I may add that you are often disgracious toward newbies questions, except on the graphic art topics.

It seems that you do not know me after 3 years of posts. If you decide the ban I will not create another account, because I respect the rules on the opposite of some members of this forum, some of which are actual members of TMWC. If you decide to ban me, it is your right but your reasons must be public. I request a TMWC public agreement and to be put in the "banned" group so my name and post can stay attached.( I'll remove my signature before on request).

Quote:
Is this stupid dispute that important to you? Just because you can't be wrong about how to interprete the GPL?

Yes this dispute IS important to me because I AM an artist too IRL even a small one; and for that reason I do care about artists rights that TMW does not respect by imposing them since the beginning a license that Gnu itselfs does not recommend. I just thought that this topic was the occasion to make things right. I am not wrong, the internet artists community says I am, just look to bthe license theuy use, with no sunglasses. Even you agree with me :
Crush wrote:
You know what's the funny thing? I actually agree with your point. I agree that the GPL is ill-suited for anything but software sourcecode. But I don't agree with the way you are making your point, which is by being obnoxious, trying to derail threads and preventing people from getting work done.




The censored original post was turned as questions. (I had no copy)
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/licenses.en.html wrote:
Licenses for Other Types of Works

We believe that published software and documentation should be free software and free documentation. We recommend making all sorts of educational and reference works free also, using free documentation licenses such as theGNU Free Documentation License (GNU FDL).

For essays of opinion and scientific papers, we recommend either the Creative Commons Attribution-NoDerivs 3.0 United States License, or the simple “verbatim copying only” license stated above.

We don't take the position that artistic or entertainment works must be free, but if you want to make one free, we recommend the Free Art License.


Gnu protects the content of its pages by:
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/licenses.en.html wrote:

This page is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NoDerivs 3.0 United States License.

Copyright Infringement Notification

Updated: $Date: 2013/02/28 17:09:29 $

YES TO SUPPORT AND PROTECT ALL ARTIST I SEND THIS POST AND SUPPORT NARD

Johanne