Poll: Should admins post a specific player's info publicly?

[blackrazor]

Poll: Should admins look up a specific player's private info (outside of an investigation) and post it publicly, for example on the forums?

@Frost and TMWC

I think it's odd how you have a whole thread, 3 pages, dedicated to a poll on combat data, with the central issue being player PRIVACY rights vs. availability of useful information here:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=17295

And also another thread, also 3 pages, with a poll on using player-bots as webcams, and the player PRIVACY rights affected by that:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=17320

So presumably you care about player privacy rights, or at least that they are worthy of discussion, and yet it is perfectly fine for frost, a TMWC top-admin, to look up my last time online status and to post about when I was last online in the game, on this public forum. If he really needed to discuss it with me, he could have private messaged me, but instead he chose to make it public.

What happened to player privacy rights in this case?

I am launching an official complaint against frost, right now, to the TMWC, over what I feel is a misuse of his authority in this case, to look up my personal info without any investigation against me (just for his curiosity) and to post it publicly on the forums.

Also of serious concern, is his implication as to whether my online status correlates with a desire that he places upon me, that I might not want my data retained.

I feel that such a statement and public reveal is intimidating, to say the least. He is ready, out of the blue, to "help" me with any data deletion services that I might need on .Org. How convenient .... *sarcasm*

The incident occurred here:

http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... &start=272

My response was here:

http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... &start=274

IMPORTANT NOTE:

This has nothing to do with the server move thread, except for the fact that the incident happened there. This is entirely an issue of player privacy rights, in the same vein as the webcam-spying poll and the combat-data poll.

Thanks.

[Big Crunch]

You are aware that you can use the !last seen function on auctionbot, right? Also I saw no information released that could not have been gleaned from just being observant in game or using auctionbot. How do you know he used some special command or search? I'm not trying to discount your objection, perhaps I'm missing the private info that was leaked?

BC

Edit. The combat data thread posited that the data could have been used to determine that a player was botting and could be harassed based purely on data rather than observation.

The webcam thread was posted by a player for player discussion, not a member of tmwc.

Again, not discounting your allegation, just clarifying.

[Frost]

blackrazor, you misunderstand something.
If I wanted to post your specific information, I would have done so.

You repeatedly say we should delete game data (which I assume means characters and such). Naturally, this includes your data. I noted that you have not logged on in a while, and offered to help you delete your data.

If you wish an example of what it would look like to get

a specific player's private info (outside of an investigation) and post it publicly, for example on the forums

I can do that.

[blackrazor]

blackrazor, you misunderstand something.
If I wanted to post your specific information, I would have done so.

You repeatedly say we should delete game data (which I assume means characters and such). Naturally, this includes your data. I noted that you have not logged on in a while, and offered to help you delete your data.

If you wish an example of what it would look like to get

a specific player's private info (outside of an investigation) and post it publicly, for example on the forums

I can do that.

That you offered to help delete my data, after checking my last time online, is very intimidating, given your position of power. Is that really lost on you? I doubt it.

Are you threatening to post more of my public data online? I certainly did not ask you what it would look like to have more of my data posted online, so why offer it?

All of these statements from you specifically, given your position of power, are very intimidating and inappropriate. You are showing a whole other side of yourself, quite different from that patient considerate thoughtful persona that you have worked so hard to cultivate. Whatever your issue, as an admin, you should not be behaving this way towards any player. And I hope the TMWC has something to say about it, because it is bad for the game, the players, and the community to have an administrator intimidate players in this fashion.

As for the other stuff you mentioned about deleting all the data (not just mine), you know very well that belongs in another thread, not here, so I will not get into it here. It has already been discussed there, and you can continue that aspect of the conversation there, hopefully without threatening any more players with deletion "services". So far, you have done that to three players, in the links I provided in the previous post. Not cool at all.

[o11c]

My option is not there:

[*] Public information about when a player is online is not private.

[Jaxad0127]

My option is not there:

[*] Public information about when a player is online is not private.

Yes. a false dichotomy is just that: false. The information Frost posted was in no way private. ActionBot maintains a list of last seen dates. The online list is completely public. Anyone can scrape it and maintain their own records of when people are online.

[blackrazor]

Last online was just an example. Frost offered to show me what it really looks like to have my private information posted online, which I did not want. He used the information he did provide to offer me his "deletion services", for which I did not ask. So you are going on about "last online" (which can be obtained through other public means), while basically ignoring the real meat of the issue.

Should an admin be posting private information about a player (even if it can be obtained through clever public means, or if it cannot, either way), and offering it as a reason to offer punishment, sanctions, or deletion?

[AnonDuck]

Of course they should! How could they have any fun otherwise?

What I really like to do is check email addresses associated with an account and cross-reference them with facebook. I then try to find some pictures in their profile I can masturbate to (usually the player's mother). If she's really cute I'll chat her up and see if she's down for some webcam action.

It's loads of fun invading people's privacy!

[Jaxad0127]

Last online was just an example. Frost offered to show me what it really looks like to have my private information posted online, which I did not want. He used the information he did provide to offer me his "deletion services", for which I did not ask. So you are going on about "last online" (which can be obtained through other public means), while basically ignoring the real meat of the issue.

Should an admin be posting private information about a player (even if it can be obtained through clever public means, or if it cannot, either way), and offering it as a reason to offer punishment, sanctions, or deletion?

This thread was made over last online time, something completely public. The rest was posted later. And he wasn't threatening deletion of your data, but reminding you that we will delete it if you want, unlike Platyna. If you have such an issue with your data being here, why not take it?

[blackrazor]

This thread was made over last online time, something completely public. The rest was posted later. And he wasn't threatening deletion of your data, but reminding you that we will delete it if you want, unlike Platyna. If you have such an issue with your data being here, why not take it?

And this is why you need an impartial top-admin. So that players with more power than they can socially handle cannot intimidate regular players with "friendly offers of deletion services".

Anything I brought up about appropriate deletion of data is a separate issue, not related to this thread, and belongs in the server-move flamewar thread, so stop trying to mention that here. Go have that conversation there, in the proper thread set aside for that purpose.

This thread was clearly made about whether admins should post private data (even if obtainable from clever public means, or not, either way) about specific players, and use it as a means to offer punishments, sanctions, or deletions (whether disguised as friendly services, or not). The last-online was just an example, and the words "last-online" are not even in the poll question, so stop pretending the question is about something other than what it is.

edit: fixed broken quote

[o11c]

This thread is about nonsense that I'm pretending is distinct from the flamewar thread, just so I can get around the limitation of one flaming thread.

FTFY

[Freeyorp101]

So presumably you care about player privacy rights, or at least that they are worthy of discussion, and yet it is perfectly fine for frost, a TMWC top-admin, to look up my last time online status and to post about when I was last online in the game, on this public forum. If he really needed to discuss it with me, he could have private messaged me, but instead he chose to make it public.

What happened to player privacy rights in this case?

To me, this does look like this was about data that was actually public.

private data (even if obtainable from clever public means, or not, either way)

Public data is public. I don't see the problem.

[*] Public information about when a player is online is not private.

Quoted for emphasis.


---Freeyorp

[blackrazor]

This thread is about nonsense that I'm pretending is distinct from the flamewar thread, just so I can get around the limitation of one flaming thread.

FTFY

You're just further demonstrating why this game needs an impartial top-admin, not a part of your meritocratic TMWC club. I've made a legitimate claim of abuse of authority, and a poll to ask whether the community wants to allow admins this kind of latitude. You can make a joke about it, o11c (n00b), because you are safely on the top of the power structure, but regular players may realize that yesterday it was Nard, today it was me, Garret, and Len, and tomorrow it could be anyone that is subject to admin coercion disguised as friendly punishment or deletion services.

[blackrazor]

So presumably you care about player privacy rights, or at least that they are worthy of discussion, and yet it is perfectly fine for frost, a TMWC top-admin, to look up my last time online status and to post about when I was last online in the game, on this public forum. If he really needed to discuss it with me, he could have private messaged me, but instead he chose to make it public.

What happened to player privacy rights in this case?

To me, this does look like this was about data that was actually public.

private data (even if obtainable from clever public means, or not, either way)

Public data is public. I don't see the problem.

[*] Public information about when a player is online is not private.

Quoted for emphasis.


---Freeyorp

Okay, I am not going to quibble about whether data that requires some amount of knowledge to manipulate in order to be public, should then be considered automatically public.

The point was clearly not about that. It was about whether admins should be using this data, or any data, to offer punishments and deletions, even if cleverly disguised as helpful services. You seem like a fair minded person who reads, Freeyorp, are you honestly telling me that after reading this thread, and the poll question, that was not obvious?

[o11c]

I've made a legitimate claim of abuse of authority, and a poll to ask whether the community wants to allow admins this kind of latitude.

If I thought even one person actually believed either part of that sentence, everything would be different.