The official server flamewar topic

[blackrazor]

That depends on the license. With GPL, sure. With Google output, or with Gravity's Ragnarok engine ... not so much. eAthena's license, I am not sure.

When discussing copyright claims, where some software from which eAthena derives may not offer the same freedoms on data copyright as given by GPL, it is related. Heck, eAthena, or its derivatives may not even qualify for a GPL license, based on where the original code derives, from the commerical copyrighted work of Gravity of South Korea. I know the TMW project has rejected artwork for similar reasons, because they derived from commercial or non-GPL copyrighted works. What about the server software?

Perhaps we should pre-emptively sue eAthena and RO for ownership of the data after we're done with Platinum?

Don't ask me. Ask the lawyer that the claimant is supposed to hire for the property dispute.

Your (or my) ability to quote sources, reputable or not, does not a substitute for proper legal advice make. I won't perform surgery based on advice from the web, nor handle a property dispute that way, either. Sure, the web is a great starting point for basic information, or to have a discussion, but there comes a time to bring in a professional for a professional problem, and that is neither you nor I. For you to claim that a professional would offer equivalent insight than your reputable quotes is not sensible, in my opinion.

It helps to do a little research before seeking professional help. I don't make a habit of bringing my car to the mechanic on a daily basis because an ignorant person made a little fuss about it.

I have hardly suggested that the claimant go to a lawyer on a daily basis. There is an actual real property dispute, Platyna herself has posted on these forums that she owns the disputed data files. Hey, if the ignorant (not a car mechanic) person notices blue smoke billowing from your exhaust, while the car makes "chitty chitty bang bang" noises, sure, by all means feel free to ignore him, because he is not a mechanic, and the internet told you that cars are supposed to do that, on occasion.

I know just enough to know that you need a professional lawyer for a property dispute. You appear to know even less.

I know it takes 2 people to dispute, and there's only one side to this dispute right now. Perhaps you should let the other party decide if such a dispute is necessary?

You know, this I can agree with. But not in isolation. Both sides need to take your excellent advice on this.

If I were you, I would question the wisdom in embittering yourself over basic advice to consult a lawyer regarding a property dispute.

I have 3 problems with this sentence:
1. Your claim that I'm "embittered" at all by nonsensical arguments
2. Your claim that what you give is advice
3. Your claim that there is a dispute at all

1. You are the one that brought up embittered first, not me.
2. My only real advice was for the claimant to seek professional legal help. Hardly radical advice.
3. TMWC claims the data files. Platyna claims the data files and further claims the TMWC had no right to relocate them off of her property. Thus, there is a property dispute between the two parties.

I liked my analogy better. There is a real property dispute, therefore the roof is really leaking. I've lived in this house since 2007, so I care about the outcome. Sorry if that offends you in some way.

If you care about the outcome, why can't you be bothered to do any research into factual law and not your opinion of the law? It's pretty obvious your opinion of the situation isn't very highly regarded, but yet you do nothing but recite the same lines over and over again that haven't garnered even the slightest support in a thread of over 300 posts. Why don't you start looking for a list of pro-bono lawyers that might be interested, raise some money, or post the issue on a legal forum for advice? I'm not a lawyer, but I can see that whatever you're trying to accomplish has nothing to do with what you're stating your goals are.

Like I said, I know enough to know that you need a real legal opinion from a real lawyer in a property dispute. Internet quotes and forums don't count. Galileo's opinion on the moons of Jupiter wasn't very highly regarded in his time, either, but he recited the same thing over and over again (until they put him under house arrest and forced him to recant), but hey, we all know that is the very definition of truth, right?

Plus, this has come up before, so he already knows how this makes me feel. Even Freeyorp acknowledged that this could be interpreted as a threat, the last time Frost did it to me.

Have you tried suing Frost? Perhaps the lawyer will give you a discount since you'll be suing so many people.

I'm not suing anyone. In your random musings, I think you have mistaken me for the claimant in this property dispute. You are mistaken. I am just like you, an interested onlooker with a marginal stake in the outcome.

A lawyer hasn't said anything, because no claimant has bothered to hire one for this property dispute, so there is no way to tell.

If there's no claimant and no claim, why hire a lawyer?

Platyna came on these forums, and said the data files were hers. They had been located on her computer, and she had not given permission for them to be relocated. The TMWC claimed ownership of the files, intrinsic with the right to relocate them to a new server. There you have your claimant and your claim. You normally hire a lawyer for a property dispute that doesn't get amicably resolved, but yes, why doesn't the TMWC try amicably resolving it with Platyna first? Good idea. But failing that, they need a lawyer, in my opinion, to which I am entitled, same as you.

You are asking the wrong person for legal documentation.

I think we all already knew this from previous conversations we've had involving you.

Well, duh .. yeah. What made you (or anyone) think that I, of all people, would be holding any legal contracts or documentation regarding this property dispute? Except for Elven's ownership of the domain name "themanaworld.org", I don't think there exists any legal documentation to validate this project or its assets, whatsoever. Which is all fine and dandy until there is an actual property dispute. Like now, for example. To be clear, not by my hand. I'm just bringing it up .. oh look, and in the appropriate thread for it, too. Imagine that.

[blackrazor]

I have to ask, blackrazor, if you really care so much, why do you intentionally post somewhere your information will not be taken seriously (ie, this thread) instead of somewhere it could be considered more seriously (ie, http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewforum.php?f=4). If you really care so much, why do you not question everyone's hostility towards you?

Normally, when someone is rebuffed by a group they care about, they would ask why and show some remorse that they haven't been taken seriously. You seem more interested in coming up with witty replies than either of these things.

I am posting in the correct and only allowable thread for these purposes. Anywhere else on these forums is verboten for such things.

Long ago, when I became an adult, I learned not to overly concern myself with the hostility of strangers on the internet. I have no reason to show remorse for my opinions ... why, because some people cannot handle a thread that they should better ignore, if it offends them so?

What I care about is the theoretically inclusive and open community, hypothesized to perhaps occur in an open sourced GPL licensed MOG. I allow myself to care about that, without allowing myself to get all butthurt if my opinions are unpopular or unaccepted in some quarters.

[o11c]

Regarding the fact that eAthena is a clone of Ragnarok Online:

When I took over maintainence of tmwa, I investigated this, and I found that the eAthena team and their predecessors had been very careful to shield their developers from this. Gravity made one attempt at a lawsuit, which failed. And in that, the only thing that was claimed to be an issue was the binary patching of the RO client by individual server operators (unlike TMW, the developers of eA do not run an instance as well).

At no time has there been any serious claim that any part of eAthena's source is based on Aegis (Gravity's server).

Regardless, none of this has anything to do with the topic of this flamewar. If you expected anyone to take you seriously, I'm sure you would stop to answer th point instead of dragging up unrelated points.

[GARRETTtheGREAT]

The thing is, your opinion isn't particularly bad, but exceptionally poorly executed. After so many times, I think you'd come to expect a little resistance. If you could clearly articulate your argument, I think that your opinion wouldn't be so unpopular. Have you considered creating a succinct list of your rationales without any trolling or flaming attempts?

In example:

I think we have a problem that needs to be addressed. With the legal threats that have been presented, I'm worried that the server move may have put the game and community at risk. I think we could get some advice from a lawyer, maybe even pro-bono. Either way, it wouldn't hurt to be sure.

Hell, if you said that a few months ago when the idea popped into your head, I would have jumped on board instead of figuring you were a quasi-sentient spam bot for a seedy lawyer.

The problem I have with you is that every post you've made on the subject matter contains an attack on someone. It looks like your adult onset wisdom hasn't done much in the way of teaching you that people are more responsive when you don't insult them, and less responsive when you do.

You could also try acknowledging new information that has been presented by other parties. For example, when discovering that copyright ownership cannot be transferred except by explicit written permission by the owner or agents thereof, you could have questioned if Platyna could be considered an agent of Elven for her role. Instead, you chose to run the same tired plays from your book again, ignoring the new direction the discussion was headed. This makes you look either arrogant or like a troll.

Or don't do any of that. I could probably use some practice arguing with others that share your stature. Besides, I'm making good progress in another game in the downtime here.

[blackrazor]

The thing is, your opinion isn't particularly bad, but exceptionally poorly executed. After so many times, I think you'd come to expect a little resistance. If you could clearly articulate your argument, I think that your opinion wouldn't be so unpopular. Have you considered creating a succinct list of your rationales without any trolling or flaming attempts?

In example:

I think we have a problem that needs to be addressed. With the legal threats that have been presented, I'm worried that the server move may have put the game and community at risk. I think we could get some advice from a lawyer, maybe even pro-bono. Either way, it wouldn't hurt to be sure.

Hell, if you said that a few months ago when the idea popped into your head, I would have jumped on board instead of figuring you were a quasi-sentient spam bot for a seedy lawyer.

The problem I have with you is that every post you've made on the subject matter contains an attack on someone. It looks like your adult onset wisdom hasn't done much in the way of teaching you that people are more responsive when you don't insult them, and less responsive when you do.

You could also try acknowledging new information that has been presented by other parties. For example, when discovering that copyright ownership cannot be transferred except by explicit written permission by the owner or agents thereof, you could have questioned if Platyna could be considered an agent of Elven for her role. Instead, you chose to run the same tired plays from your book again, ignoring the new direction the discussion was headed. This makes you look either arrogant or like a troll.

Or don't do any of that. I could probably use some practice arguing with others that share your stature. Besides, I'm making good progress in another game in the downtime here.

I would like to believe that the people here are wise enough to take the points made at face value, and explore them on their own merits. If not, oh well, so be it.

I have always been polite, and I only defend myself when attacked. I have not insulted anyone, certainly not anyone even marginally polite.

As for those quotes, for example: your "copyright ownership cannot be transferred except by explicit written permission by the owner or agents thereof", or my own "possession is 9/10th of the law", you seem to miss the point entirely. It's fun to discuss this, up to a point, but really, quotes from the internet are no suitable replacement for proper real legal advice. I think it's clear enough that there is a property dispute that needs to be sorted out, and I would be much more comfortable seeing the resolution come from a lawyer or a court or a notary, rather than us finding supporting quotes on the internet.

So if it doesn't steer my approach one way or the other, that is why. Because regardless of what quotes you or I find, I still believe that a legal professional is the best way to approach this issue. Heck, show him the quotes, try to teach him his job, and then let him marvel at how smart you are. Or maybe, he'll teach you a thing or two, that you didn't find on the internet, because heck, he has years of actual education and practice in a highly technical field, and may have been exposed to a thing or two, that neither of us found on the internet today.

[GARRETTtheGREAT]

I would like to believe that the people here are wise enough to take the points made at face value, and explore them on their own merits. If not, oh well, so be it.

I have always been polite, and I only defend myself when attacked. I have not insulted anyone, certainly not anyone even marginally polite.

As for those quotes, for example: your "copyright ownership cannot be transferred except by explicit written permission by the owner or agents thereof", or my own "possession is 9/10th of the law", you seem to miss the point entirely. It's fun to discuss this, up to a point, but really, quotes from the internet are no suitable replacement for proper real legal advice. I think it's clear enough that there is a property dispute that needs to be sorted out, and I would be much more comfortable seeing the resolution come from a lawyer or a court or a notary, rather than us finding supporting quotes on the internet.

So if it doesn't steer my approach one way or the other, that is why. Because regardless of what quotes you or I find, I still believe that a legal professional is the best way to approach this issue. Heck, show him the quotes, try to teach him his job, and then let him marvel at how smart you are. Or maybe, he'll teach you a thing or two, that you didn't find on the internet, because heck, he has years of actual education and practice in a highly technical field, and may have been exposed to a thing or two, that neither of us found on the internet today.

Sure, why don't you get working on finding a lawyer for us. Or, are you too busing marveling at how butthurt you aren't right now?

[blackrazor]

Sure, why don't you get working on finding a lawyer for us. Or, are you too busing marveling at how butthurt you aren't right now?

I don't have the authority to find a lawyer on behalf of anyone, nor is it my job to do that. Maybe you can go dig up some more internet quotes that can teach you that, too.

[GARRETTtheGREAT]

I don't have the authority to find a lawyer on behalf of anyone, nor is it my job to do that. Maybe you can go dig up some more internet quotes that can teach you that, too.

The internet has more than quotes. I'd teach you about those too, but I don't want to overwhelm you.

How'd you know about the whole "authority to find a lawyer on behalf of anyone" without being able to use the internet? I can only assume that someone with such a profound knowledge and no internet access must have an encyclopedia up his ass. It's a wonder you can fit it in there with your giant head in the way.

[Hello=)]

Except this project is "copyleft", specifically GPL. By the GPL licence, ownership for the code and art is to their respective authors.

GPL haves nothing to do with processed data. The fact I used GPLed program to process photo does not makes this photo GPLed. Processed data are independent IP objects.

Ownership of the playersave data is to the admin running it on their machine.

Which laws can support this bold statement? Admin is not author, (s)he haven't created IP object (him/her)self. Hence copyright laws can't protect such claims.

(Unless the input playersave data was copyrighted, in which case the output data would hold the same copyright, but that is not the case here.)

Again, if copyright law does not apply - no ways for lawsuit. If it does, admin is not author anyway - no luck either.

Yes, if the admin uses a hosting service, they will have a legal contract with that hosting service that the admin owns the data, and not the hosting service. NO such contract exists for Platyna and she claims she was the admin running it, not just the host. In the absence of a legal document that claims otherwise, Platyna's claim appears valid.

You haven't got how copyright law works. By default IP object author keeps all rights - no extra agreements needed as it is explicitly stated in copyright laws. Unless author gives explicit permission to use his/her work, you (or hosting, admin, ISP, whoever) should not use this work, being under risk of facing copyright law wrath (if author decides to do so). The trouble here is that it's dubious if data file records like this could be qualified as IP object. But if it happens they are, the only entity which keeps rights by default is author. Aka player who caused data record creation.
I don't see how admin/host/ISP/whoever can gain any extra rights.

Normally, hosting providers make you sign a contract, either digitally (EULA or TOS) or on paper, that specifically assigns ownership (and legal liability) for the hosted IP to the account holder and not the hosting company.

Wrong! Normally, author haves all rights assigned to him/her "by default". This statement is a part of copyright laws in virtually all places where copyright is recognized. Everyone else (admins/hosters/ISPs/whoever) have no rights on IP objects unless author explicitly grants them rights with some license agreement.

That protects the interests of both the hosting company (that just wants to host, without liability) and the account holder (that wants to clearly maintain ownership of any data, metadata that is created or output by the running software). This was not the case with Platyna; no legal contract exists, and she claims she was the admin, not just the host.

Copyright laws only care about protecting authors. Author is person who creates IP object.

That's why I utterly fail Platyna's claims on exclusive data ownership. At the end of day she haven't created these records herself.

You have the right to ask for your own personal identifying data or data that carries legal liability to you, to be wiped. Data from the game (your hitpoints, your castle, your horse, your potions, your gold coins) do not actually belong to you. The game creates the data on the server (their machine),

The fact that some program does something on my behalf does not grants this program or her authors any extra rights on it's own. They own castle and horse IP objects, sure. However unique combination of these and related data records was created by me. Should this be considered as valid IP object suitable for protection under copyright law, it's me who i author. If it's not a valid IP object... you can't file lawsuit at all, lol.

not the client (your machine).

Copyright laws do not care about this. It's only important who is author and what rights he/she granted to others.

Most commercial licences assign the ownership of game data to the same copyright as the ownership of the code and art IP, but not GPL.

Code license have nothing to do with data. Certain project can request to give certain rights to them to be able to use their services, but again, you can disagree on this and don't use their services. Then they will lack rights and you will lack access to their services. It's a matter of agreements achieved.

This game is licensed by GPL, which assigns the ownership of the data to the person running the program.

Wrong. GPL makes no such claims. Try to read it, after all. Furthermore, processed IP objects are independent entities which have nothing to do with program code licensing. The fact I used GPL program to open some photo does not automatically grants me rights to use this foto on terms of GPL. Else I can easily convert all photos in the world to GPLed versions, even without asking their authors. Which is definitely wrong, don't you think so?

(In the same way as the ownership of the output of a pencil, the drawing, is assigned to the person using the pencil, not the person who made the pencil,

You can use pencil to draw unique pictire, by placing unique combination of colored particles on a paper. I can use game interface to make unique combination of objects. It's hard to tell where border lies and when it stops being triial stuff and becomes copyrighted IP object. But in 1st case there can be no lawsuit on copyright basis and in second case player turns out to be author of particular unique record. If player agreed to transfer rights to certain entity it could be the case, but there was no such agreement anyway. So if copyright could be applied, its likely players who own thier records. Because their actions created these records, just as your action of using pencil could create a picture.

and not the person who invented the pencil.) There are exceptions, such as if the program uses an input file, then the copyright of the output file will be the same as the input file.

I don't know where you got this idea but I suggest you to read copyright laws and some licenses to get idea how it works. These are not exceptions. The fact program can process some IP object does not grants anyone any rights on some copyrighted IP object. If you'll take photo made by me, it's no matter what program under which license you use. You haven't created it. It's mine. You have no rights to use it unless I gave you permission in license agreement. This is how copyright laws define it.

This is similar to a photocopier, the output (photocopies) will have the same ownership as the original documents you photocopied; just because you copied them, you do not own their copyright, nor does the person who build or invented the photocopier, either.

So, it were the players who created unique datasets and server was something between pencil and photocopier. Admin was something between owner of penicl and owner of photocopier. Neither of these can claim copyright "by default".

How well an admin handles hacking intrusions has nothing to do with who owns the data playersave files.

Sure, it's just my personal observation on how Platyna usually does the things.

Sure, we all wish the person who owns the data is able to fend off any attacks, but ownership does not work that way.

First of all, I think she does not owns data exclusively as she haven't created these. Hence no reasons to claim ownership.

You don't lose ownership, just because you got hacked. And you don't lose ownership, if you trust certain individuals with file-move access in order for them to do their job of pushing updates, and they use that access to instead relocate a clone of those files somewhere else. To be clear, I'm not accusing (although I certainly have my opinion), I'm just saying that ownership does not change from this.

The only thing is wrong is that you assume that owner of photocopier could have some rights on data his/her machine processed. But in fact it has been about letting to process your data/IP objects.

I'm not demanding anything; I'm giving my opinion. I already explained who owns the playersave data, and it's not you or me, unless we run a copy of the game server on our own machines,

You told yourself that photocopier owner does not owns processed data. It's not a big deal it will be yours photocopier or mine. You can offer that "I will make a copy if you allow me to use this picture" but it's really up to both sides to agree on terms and author have to give you permission to use his IP object this way.

then that specific world data (playersaves) is ours. This is GPL OSS software, and we are allowed to run our own servers, no problem. And we own the world (playersaves) that we create with that software.

The only problem is that you don't create records yourself and hence can't qualify as author. Just as photocopier owner can't qualify as picture author "just because his photocopier has been used".

But if we play on someone else's world, someone else's server, we do not own it. All we can ask is that they delete personal info, emails, usernames, passwords, IP addresses. We can also demand that we are no longer associated with our in-game assets, to avoid legal liability, and then it is the game company's choice in how to process that claim, either through deletion, banning, setting the assets to non-player or un-owned status, etc.

And again, by default author owns created IP object. So if data record qualifies as such, you can't claim ownership on it's own. However you can, say, refuse to serve those who does not grants certain rights by accepting agreement offered by you. But it's matter of agreement of both sides. As there was no such agreement, defaults from copyright laws apply. And these telling us it's IP object author who owns all rights. This is not a server admin (who is just some "photocopier owner").

I totally agree that pissing off a development team is a bad idea, but that does not change ownership. It might make a game a lot less fun to play, but it does not change who owns the data.

The only problem is that I dont see who owns these data. Either they're not subject to copyright or it's players who own copyright because ... because there was no other agreements and it's players actions cause these records to appear.

By the way, to be clear, I am not a lawyer, and I don't think you are, either.

Right. But I had to deal with software and other copyrighted stuff for years. So I learned basics of this crap (to be able to understand most troublesome/dangerous pitfalls) and it's what makes me really amazed to read some really dumb/incorrect statements from those who simply haven't got even very basic things on copyright laws. Also I own some web servers, so I'm more or less aware of my rights (else it's not that hard to get in trouble).

[Nard]

Except this project is "copyleft", specifically GPL. By the GPL licence, ownership for the code and art is to their respective authors.

GPL haves nothing to do with processed data. The fact I used GPLed program to process photo does not makes this photo GPLed. Processed data are independent IP objects.

Ownership of the playersave data is to the admin running it on their machine.

Which laws can support this bold statement? Admin is not author, (s)he haven't created IP object (him/her)self. Hence copyright laws can't protect such claims...

t3st3r, you should read again all this thread from start, because all has been exposed many times. Also this is because of your first argument ("The fact I used GPLed program to process photo does not makes this photo GPLed") that Player Data are not public. Just as your processed photo they not subject to copyright, but private data, and under the host owner's responsibility as long as the service provider has no legal existence (non profit org. or a person for example).
TMW-the game is a service just as TMW-the-forum and TMW-the-wiki. There should be terms of service from both services provider (still rather virtual at the moment) and the host that clearly states who owns these data and what are their relations; and what is their privacy policy (California state requires it for example).
TMW-the-project is not a service but an informal moving community . TMW-the-project could claim some "moral ownership" over the player data, though the great majority of accounts were created after the first developers became away from game and inactive but on some little significant mana client development. But if we speak of "moral property" the main client developer could also claim some kind of ownership because this game would be dead now without him... :/.
Server administrator is not necessarily an author, but some legal entity which makes software running on his own machine or a machine it rents, Player data belongs to this entity. We know who and what Platyna and Platinum are, we know nothing about the actual host and service providers.

[AnonymousNo666]

WE DO NOT FORGET WE DO NOT FORGIVE
NOBODY MESSES WITH PLATYPUS!
EXPECT US!

Anonymous.png (150.8 KiB) Viewed 17022 times

EVERYONE HERE PLEASE RISE UP AND REVOLT AGAINST THIS ANIMAL ABUSE!

[AnonDuck]

LOLTROLL

*laughing so hard coffee is spraying from his nose all over the keyboard*

[Platyna]

The only source of rules I set is my forum post, all other things are unauthorized modification, which I usually did not agreed for so I was kicked out from the project I managed. So if one wants to change the rules stated on forums, which were the base this community was built on, to match those stated by rogue developers then they want to simply change the rules behind the back of the community, which is another proof that TMWC has nothing in common to democratic body but is rather oligarchy, as it used to be, with one imporant difference - the responsibility is now obfuscated, therefore there will be no guilty for any negative impact this will have on the community.

Good luck hunting maqueraded players.

I hope this clears some things up.

Regards.

[prsm]

you really can't clear much up when you use the word "obfuscated".

[Platyna]

Another point I'd like to make, based on Freeyorp's post:

Based on this post, as of end 2009, Platyna had the following separate roles:

• Server host
• tmwAthena administrator
• Community administrator/manager (I guess we could call it "lead GM", based on Elven's description of "community manager" here)
• Forum administrator
• Other "minor" roles (such as website maintanance)

When the manasource split happened, as Freeyorp said, TMW was managed by Jaxad, but at this point Platyna was still in control while behind the scenes. She claims that she never "relieved her control" over anyone since then. When the server move happened she still had all those roles listed above, the only thing that was removed from her, with pemission from Elven, was her role as server host, because the host was changing to accomodate the community's needs. So there is still the problem of why she was relieved of her other separate roles when the move happened. Was it to prevent her from being an obstacle during the move? Then after the move she should have been reinstated. I know this can cause lots of problems because she hates a lot of people in the TMWC now, but not doing it would be wrong, since o11c, Frost, etc. are still technically under Platyna, she is still part of the GM group and she is still a forum admin. Only her role of server host is now covered by MadCamel.

I say Platyna should be made administrator again, as she was before (except she won't host anymore, unless she's offered the position again), with the premise that she won't kick people out as revenge and she will help solve the issues with the multiboxing rule and the GM and dev at the same time thing. This would ensure the end of this flamewar, a solution for two important issues that we had and a peaceful continuation of the game's development, since TMW.net is hurting TMW.org and could potentially hurt it even more in the future.

One correction Wild - they are under me, so they have no right to assign or remove any roles from me, including the server host role, and since Bjorn and Elven resigned from these roles, they also have no right to assign or remove roles, so these belong exclusively to me.

So I demand the files and all the priviledges I had to be returned to me. I am not going to kick or ban the mutiners, but they will no longer have any access to these files, not becuase I hate them - I don't, but simply because those people cannot be trusted, and the reason that they can't be trusted is a reason why I do not agree for them to take my files and rule over them.

As most of people pointed out - I am fair, impartial and honest - this is a major difference between me and current self-proclaimed TMW management. All decisions I ever made were for the good of the project, and if it ever happens that TMWC comes to their sense, this is not going to change.

For the survival of this project there has to be a clear responsibility and division of power.

What we will do, if e. g. Frost will start to hate o11c, and one day one of them will convince Elven to change domain entries and then copy over files? We all know they both are capable of doing so, as they already did it once.

We will have player data files flying around the world? Where is the wellness of this project and users' privacy?

There are multiple arguments against current self-proclaimed managers, which were pointed out.

The fact that I had the good of the project on my mind was abused - I gave them admin powers to update the server while I had no time to do it.

This thread:
http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8710

Clearly explains the division of powers we agreed on after our argument:

I plan to be part of the client mantainers, so count me in. I already started some thinking about restructuring our git repositories and keeping them up to date with manasource ones.

At this time I'd really like to see a draft of an organizational chart for the TMW project. People are really starting to loose references and we need to know who's responsible for what, and who should we ask to.

As you can see he assumed no power over eathena server files stored on Platinum, and he did not objected when I have assumed these powers.

Also the server was created and ran by Ultramichy, who handed the files to me and nor Bjorn or Elven objected.

Also here:

As I already stated, I plan to take care of client maintenance/development, so be sure to add my name there.

And I propose Bertram as Server mantainer, since he is the one most actively working on tmwserv/manaserv development.

I think at the moment, while ea is still alive, everyone responsible for one meta project should be rosposible also for the other.

Also I would like to consider a couple of other meta-projects: web (which means keeping up-to-date/renewing website, forums, tmwweb and so on) and community (which means forum moderation and in game moderation since I see server-admin more of a tech work)

I could take care of web and I hope Platyna will take care of community.

I was made a person responsible for the community.

How on earth TMWC can own a content that was there when they werent? The only way is to receive permission from me which they didn't.

Also eathena account on Platinum is owned by me. And you agree for the TOS by using the service.

Freeyorp: No comments for you, really, shame on you.

Also I fought with Bjorn for valid reasons:
http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... =12&t=5261

Also here is clearly stated the organization structure:
http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... yna#p72374

I will remain project lead for the Mana Client and Server. I will however only administrate the testing server. The running of other servers will be left to those who feel up to the challenge. Hopefully Platyna will keep hosting server.themanaworld.org since it has proved a very dependable service, but I also hope other projects will be able to grow and develop in this ecosystem.

It was after Elven lef for mana source, Bjorn took over, next in chain of succession was me and here I am.

Bertram, it's nice that you draw diagrams, but since I'm proposing a split between TMW as a game and player community and the client/server software that this community is based on, they are really only useful in the context of trying to draw the complete picture as far as the TMW project is concerned. I am personally not planning to contribute to TMW directly apart from contributing to the Mana client and server, and at that level TMW would be just one of the users. Hence, while the diagram is interesting, it is not the picture as seen from a manasource.org point of view, and I have no interest in modifying it, like Platyna suggested, since most of the diagram is outside of the scope of manasource.org.

I think you could compare the relationship between TMW and manasource.org to the relation between TMW and Tiled. While TMW has a lot of influence on the way Tiled develops, being one of the primary users, it remains a generic editor that is also used by many other people.

I hope it explains everything. I am awaiting the data to be returned to Platinum and removed from MadCamel's server.

I took screenshots, of course and there is a copy on the original server.

Also Bjorn was unaware of what is happening here, and as he wrote to me - o11c is not a good material of an admin, he agreed to change DNS entries (and only that) because he treatened to leave and Bjorn was lied to that if he does the project will die.

Regards.