The official server flamewar topic

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prsm
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by prsm »

blackrazor wrote:
melkior wrote:You know, we may have disagreements in the TMWC sometimes, some of them ugly, but each time you show up, all of those start looking completely irrelevant. TMWC, as flawed as it is, is outstanding when compared to the alternative, if that alternative is you.
Your TMWC Ugliness, the exact nature of which, Frost vs. o11c, with no reasonable way to resolve it, was predicted exactly. It's funny, because while you obviously have a bee up your ass regarding Platyna, many people are saying the _exact_ same thing about your TMWC. People are leaving, bad feelings all around, lies and mistruths, people being squeezed out. My time with TMW predates your TMWC, and I for one, was a lot happier under the old regime. So were many others, some quiet, some gone. Anyways, I'm going to stick it out, in the hopes that your little TMWC will eventually self-destruct and go away too, leaving the game hopefully a much better and much less hateful, less bitter, and less spiteful place.

Every time I try to forget how unpleasant your TMWC propaganda is, one of you obligingly comes forward to remind me. Thanks. For nothing.
Sorry to hear you feel this way Blackrazor, neither was a perfect environment. Now or than. Nor will it ever be, in an open source game there will always be disputes, it's inevitable. Egos factor in and cloud judgement. But to come to Mels defense (not that he needs me to defend him), the working environment is threat free now, that's a move forward. We can't claim fight free, but some time small steps are the best.

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Re: TMW Admin Role and Responsibilities

Post by blackrazor »

prsm wrote: ... ugly propaganda followed by brilliant self-revealing quote:

I am a sycophant of that current ill system.

Prsm

'nuff said.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by melkior »

I'm not too happy about that fight either, nor am I impressed with how TMWC functions, to be honest. I think it could do a lot better and in many areas it leaves a lot to be desired.

My time here also predates TMWC. But I've also seen the internal discussions of the ex-GHP (thanks to my position as a member of TMWC) and I can tell you that Platyna's appearances are not pretty.

I can see other things too. I can take a step back and see that TMWC is trying, where Platyna didn't. I know, I know, good intentions and roads to Hell. But an organisation like this is going to make a lot of fumbles. It's still new, it's trying to run a project that was never really a democracy, and everyone is used to not having a democracy. I think it'll take time and hopefully it'll improve.

Maybe TMWC will be replaced by something else, maybe it won't. I do hope that whatever happens will be for the better of the game.

My reply to Platyna was my personal reply, it had nothing to do with TMWC. Maybe it's my mistake that I don't have two forum accounts, one for my personal posts, I apologise for that. I was merely talking about my personal interactions here.

I don't really care whether TMWC stays or falls. I care about the game and its players. Sometimes, feedback like yours leaves me jaded about trying to fight for the players, but I bounce back eventually. I think we would all do better if the players showed more interest, but no one really cares about how the game is run, as long as it is run.

I'm sorry if my post in any way offended you or made you angry, blackrazor, but like I said, I was talking to Platyna, as melkior, not TMWC. Maybe it should've been a PM... Anyway, thank you for caring enough to offer critique.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor »

Yeah, it's threat-free. Too bad it's only threat-free if you're TMWC or TMWC-allied. Otherwise it's pretty much the same as always. Just ask me, Nard, or Platyna (and others) ... you piss off the wrong people, and it's not threat-free at all. I was here in 2007, 8, 9 so I missed a lot of the stupid dramas that followed. The game was better when the administration was smaller, more humble, and less filled with EGO, piss, and vinegar.
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Re: TMW Admin Role and Responsibilities

Post by prsm »

blackrazor wrote:
prsm wrote: ... ugly propaganda followed by brilliant self-revealing quote:

I am a sycophant of that current ill system.

Prsm

'nuff said.
Actually, if I may, you errored.
The thing you called a self-revealing quote was one of the many things that Platyna had called me over the last few years, I liked it so I used it. I am sure she meant it to insult and demean.

Have a great day,

Prsm
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by melkior »

I'm not too happy about that fight either, nor am I impressed with how TMWC functions, to be honest. I think it could do a lot better and in many areas it leaves a lot to be desired.

My time here also predates TMWC. But I've also seen the internal discussions of the ex-GHP (thanks to my position as a member of TMWC) and I can tell you that Platyna's appearances are not pretty.

I can see other things too. I can take a step back and see that TMWC is trying, where Platyna didn't. I know, I know, good intentions and roads to Hell. But an organisation like this is going to make a lot of fumbles. It's still new, it's trying to run a project that was never really a democracy, and everyone is used to not having a democracy. I think it'll take time and hopefully it'll improve.

Maybe TMWC will be replaced by something else, maybe it won't. I do hope that whatever happens will be for the better of the game.

My reply to Platyna was my personal reply, it had nothing to do with TMWC. Maybe it's my mistake that I don't have two forum accounts, one for my personal posts, I apologise for that. I was merely talking about my personal interactions here.

I don't really care whether TMWC stays or falls. I care about the game and its players. Sometimes, feedback like yours leaves me jaded about trying to fight for the players, but I bounce back eventually. I think we would all do better if the players showed more interest, but no one really cares about how the game is run, as long as it is run.

I'm sorry if my post in any way offended you or made you angry, blackrazor, but like I said, I was talking to Platyna, as melkior, not TMWC. Maybe it should've been a PM... Anyway, thank you for caring enough to offer critique.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor »

I care very much about how the game is run. Unfortunately, that has brought me nothing but trouble, since with caring comes an opinion, and my opinion does not jive with the prevailing winds. That being said, I very much appreciate your well thought out and honest reply, Melkior. Thanks for that.

Well, back to wrapping presents and eating Chinese Food, while we prepare for American Thanksgiving, Black Friday, and eventually Christmas (and Chanukah right now, too !) We celebrate everything, lots of love and happiness here. Family is great. Peace.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by o11c »

blackrazor wrote:Yeah, it's threat-free. Too bad it's only threat-free if you're TMWC or TMWC-allied. Otherwise it's pretty much the same as always. Just ask me, Nard, or Platyna (and others) ... you piss off the wrong people, and it's not threat-free at all.
"threat-free" does not mean lawless. TMW exists as an environment for people to *build* in, not destroy.

I'm not sure what threats there were against you ... and Platyna is obvious. I'm not sure how much to say about the Nard case, but there were very good reasons (not personal conflict).
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor »

o11c wrote:
blackrazor wrote:Yeah, it's threat-free. Too bad it's only threat-free if you're TMWC or TMWC-allied. Otherwise it's pretty much the same as always. Just ask me, Nard, or Platyna (and others) ... you piss off the wrong people, and it's not threat-free at all.
"threat-free" does not mean lawless. TMW exists as an environment for people to *build* in, not destroy.

I'm not sure what threats there were against you ... and Platyna is obvious. I'm not sure how much to say about the Nard case, but there were very good reasons (not personal conflict).
I followed the laws. I posted where I was told to post. I made zero noise at all in the game. Yet Frost offered to delete me twice. Even Freeyorp admitted that could be seen as threatening ... the first time. And Frost did it again. Then there was Tux's poll to ban me, and you (o11c) chimed in, not forbidding it, but just asking that TMWC members kindly not vote, so as not to skew the results. And finally Crush (TMWC Forum admin) chimed in with: "I'm not banning him, just because nobody likes him." Which he later rewrote into something more politically correct. So yeah, threats, bullying, and all for expressing my opinion in the appropriate sanctioned place. I'll let Nard and Platyna speak for themselves, I brought them up to make it clear that mine was not some freakishly flukey one-time case. There was a pattern. As there is often, with any administration. But to claim that the environment is threat-free for those the TMWC dislikes (even if the disliked do follow the laws) is disingenuous.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by o11c »

Ah, sorry, I forgot about that, I guess your claim of being threatened is legit.

But to add emphasis:
prsm wrote:the working environment is threat free now, that's a move forward.
Now the developers and GMs can work without threats. It's not that we don't value our player community, but we can't *ever* expect to keep everyone happy.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Cassy »

I can't let such things uncommented.

blackrazor you have some good points when mentioning some of TMWC's problems, especially the communication and different opinions between Frosty and o11c and I think everyone will agree with it.
Maybe they will find a solution for that together with Freeyorp as we can see in another thread = they are willing to find a way to solve their problems.

I'm not part of TMWC and therefore don't have access to the hidden forums to see how it has been with Platyna, but with so many people saying it has been worse, you/we should believe them instead of argueing with 12±x people who know while you don't.
Also see what melkior wrote about TMWC immediately being on the same side as soon as Platyna appears... and you don't need the hidden forums to see that he is obviously right.

I remember wushin saying something on IRC about the current TMWC and dev team needing time to form this new team to work well together.
He is right: when you establish a new company or rearrange departments or groups it will take a lot of time until the processes are transparent.
Bad comparison? Only because at work you see and work with your colleagues far more than with voluntary people in an open-source game which means you have more time to become a real team.

Which is my next point: volunteers in an open-source game.
Some of your posts sound more like you had payed them for the service to be able to play the game.
They don't get money, they never see each other, but they get preasure and flames from people who only know half of the things happening.
Please keep that in mind.
blackrazor wrote:Just ask me, Nard, or Platyna (and others) ... you piss off the wrong people
  • Nard was "pissed off" by a single person, not TMWC.
  • No idea why you mention Platyna here.
  • Since you were refering to former team members: AFAIK you weren't part of GHP, dev team, or a contributor, or am I mistaken? Serious question btw, not a trolling one.
blackrazor wrote:I followed the laws. I posted where I was told to post. I made zero noise at all in the game. Yet Frost offered to delete me twice.
Thanks to RL I really have a bad temper these days and this quote doesn't make it better, but I'm trying to give you a calm reply:
I told you several times that you are wrong about this and therefore can't be bothered putting effort into searching all replies, but look here:
- please read and understand -

blackrazor wrote:Then there was Tux's poll to ban me
I don't agree with opening this poll and I also voted "no", FYI, but are you seriously wondering why this poll was opened after you ignored several posts, brought up the same topics several times (like you also do here again btw) and were the only person to bring up the flamewar again and again and again? Like I said I would never open such a poll or vote for "yes", because you weren't breaking any rule, but I can understand if other people do so. You should at least try to understand too.
Main characters:
Lv.94 - Cassy - speedarcher on dark path, bunny-wannabe, would like to ride on a Mouboo once...
Lv.95 - Biqcassy - mage on light path, addicted to her Fluffy Hat, love-hates Fallens, really misses Confused Tree...
Lv.70 - Simca. - dreams of becoming a speedarcher on light path, still has a lot to learn...

Personal development overview | priorities | wiki to-do | wiki profile incl. other characters

[20:24:59] <Cassy> debug npc in crypts!
[20:25:02] <Cassy> just a joke...
[20:25:08] <wushin> DONT DO THAT
[20:25:10] <o11c> !slap Cassy
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by melkior »

I really wish this topic didn't exist.

I think I have made a gross error in judgement when I replied to Platyna's last post, and I can't apologise enough for doing that. Bad habit, I guess, but that's not really an excuse.

If Platyna wants to trawl through these forums and post everything that she thinks makes the TMWC look bad, I guess we should let her do so, uninterrupted. With time, I think she'll stop. At least I can hope.

I genuinely believe she does not care about the game or the project itself. I think she liked being in charge of something, even if she hadn't payed it much attention, and when she did, it was misguided. If the project was on her mind, TMW.net would be pristine and blossoming with new opportunities to make her fork larger and better than this server.

Instead, it's a spambot playground. So... I propose we just let Platyna do what she wants to do. I don't think we need to be defending ourselves anymore. I'm not saying this to insult Platyna or anyone who supports her, I'm just stating facts the way I see them.

I am really tired of arguing. If all the energy that has been spent here was directed at improving the project, be it through art, music, quests, ideas or constructive discussions about game mechanics, we'd be at least a lightyear ahead of where we are right now.

I understand blackrazor. Or at least I think that I understand where he's coming from. I'm sure there are people who wish he wasn't around. I can relate to that feeling, but more about that later. First of all, I doubt anyone would spend so much energy here unless they genuinely wanted to help this project. Of course, we all have different ideas about what would benefit this project. In TMWC alone there are at least 5 different schools of thought, which I find especially amusing because when push comes to shove, you can barely get 5 replies, let alone 5 opinions, but I digress.

I'd like to believe that each and every one of us wants to make TMW a better place. We've all been somehow enchanted by this crappy little game if we keep coming back to it, ignoring all the punishment that comes with it. So... can we try a different tone?

There are a lot of headstrong people here. Myself included. I used to be very vocal about what I thought were injustices in this game. There were devs and GMs lobbying for my unconditional ban. I had developers publicly (and privately) call me names that this forum software would censor, so I shan't bother typing them.

Did I accomplish anything? A bit. Nothing Earth-shattering, and it burned me out so much that I had left for 3 years.

A lot of people burn out in one way or another here, and that's hardly a healthy environment. We are collectively responsible for fostering a climate of constant confrontations and boundless finger-pointing.

If we (TMWC) are failing you, if the community honestly feels that way, let's see some dialogue on that. Alternatives, anything. Inside the invisible TMWC forums (I know I probably shouldn't be talking about that, but screw it), there is a post I made which proposes firing everyone in TMWC as a possible solution to certain squabbles. I see myself as a player first, then GM, then TMWC member. If my presence is hurting this community, I will gladly remove myself from those positions. If TMWC has to go down so that players can prosper, I'll be amongst the first to grab the figurative hammer and tear into it. Not all of TMWC members share my opinions, but they (we) can all go suck on a fluffy if the whole community turns on them.

All kinds of things can be arranged. But let's have discussions on those topics, with less vitriol, less accusals and more suggestions.

TMWC is not the definitive answer to the "How to run TMW?" question, but it's a better solution, I think (and I guess a fair number of players agrees). It'll evolve, and change, and possibly disappear, which is completely fine, as long as the game sticks around.

I would not be surprised at all if some future iteration of TMW management included you, blackrazor, amongst their ranks. If you don't lose interest in the meantime, that is.

I think I've ranted enough in here. I'm signing myself off from this thread. If somebody still wants to get my opinions germane to this thread, you might have to resort to private messages.

You have been treated badly, blackrazor. I am referring to tux9th's request to have you banned. I'm not familiar with Frost's offer/threat to delete you, and I'm honestly too tired to go looking for it, so I won't comment on that. But in a community of such headstrong people, I guess it's time we learn to take certain things in stride. If someone (even someone in a position of power) is being an idiot, we don't have to respond in kind.

I know I'm certainly tying to do that from now on. As always, I apologise for the wall of text.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor »

I appreciate tremendously what you have written Melkior. Thanks for that. All I wanted was some acknowledgement that I cared also about the project, a great deal, even if my views are not popular. My feelings are genuine, and they hearken from a time, long ago (2007-8-9), where the game was so small and humble, that the politics and drama had not yet begun in earnest. Back then, the playerbase and development was so small, that there wasn't anything really worth fighting about. If you were there, back then, it was only because you cared or were curious. I'm sure lots of those good feelings still exist today; and I agree with your sentiment that it should be encouraged.

One serious proposition I had made, buried somewhere in this thread, was to make the TMW 100% community driven, with community elections and term-limits for those in power. Of course, then you would need some serious infrastructure to ensure that everyone only voted once, but it might be something worth looking into.

I have always been very appreciative of all the hard work the developers, administrators, game masters, and coders do, to keep the project running smoothly and moving forward. My only real beef was in how the transition was implemented and presented to the larger community. That kind of built on itself, in a negative feedback loop, the more it was rationalized and the more defensive people became over it. So once again, your words, Melkior, hold a lot of healing power. Thanks for that.

Have a great Thanksgiving everyone !
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Dave »

Hi, gang. Let me first apologize for dredging up this relentlessly awful thread. I had a difficult time deciding whether I should post here, PM a handful of you, or simply not say anything. I know many of you probably don't know or remember me. I rarely ever played. I did a little bit of conceptual work several years ago, most of which seems to have been understandably tossed. I was checking an old email address and noticed a peculiar announcement from Platyna, regarding the ahem.. hierarchical changes.

Regarding this matter, as little as I’m sure you all wish to discuss at this point, I want to say that to me, the unnecessarily complicated and rather ambiguous hierarchy of the old days was absolutely one of the biggest turnoffs. While I’m sure nobody will claim that the current system is absolutely perfect, as Melkior just pointed out, I still want to commend those of you who made the decision to part ways. I suppose that's technically me 'taking a side' .. but whatever; I don't really have a dog in this fight. Rather, a (probably misguided) compulsion to speak, after reading parts of this drama. I suppose that technically means I'm trolling..? Though I surely had my own maturity and professionalism issues (and probably still do) and though I seldom (if ever) had any direct interaction with Platyna, I consistently viewed her as more of an annoyance than a benefit, as well as a potentially disruptive force in your team. I hope that's not too hypocritical of me, but hey.. I didn't send a mass email. :roll: Suffice to say, I find it somewhat ironic that what I have read, as a direct result of receiving that email, only confirms what I had already suspected years ago; that Platyna is a pretentious and insufferable egomaniac. So I suppose I can thank her for validating those past perceptions.

I am not claiming at all to have predicted any of what has transpired.. who could have? I suppose I'm simply recollecting the vague gut feelings I once had. In my opinion, Platyna's domineering, holier-than-thou attitude was (and still is?) one of the most significant of a few thorns in the side of this project and it sounds as if that problem only grew over time. While I agree that she did indeed provide a valuable service to The Mana World, it’s obvious that she ultimately acted with outweighing disservice, by arrogantly asserting de facto ownership of the data, from which the default server is comprised. I will never claim to be anything close to an expert on any of the licensing gobbledygook, but as a disclaimer was one of the first things I remember reading, prior to contributing to TMW, it was always my understanding that everything that went in to the default server, was considered to be property of the project- not the web host. Suggesting that the player data residing on the project’s default server was somehow exempt from that rule, seems like a blatant exercise in the mental gymnastics of double standards. Platyna's email campaign to portray many of you as illegitimate usurpers and even malicious criminals, immediately seemed suspicious and seems to have almost completely backfired on her. Her behavior only compounds the negative opinion I and apparently many others already had of her. The suggestion that any of this belongs in a court of law seems far beyond absurd. I hope for the sake of TMW and the sanity of everyone involved, that Platyna eventually figures out how underhanded and fruitless the rather transparent attempts to unfairly smear her detractors have been.

That said and very possibly completely off-topic, I must admit that I always felt the decision to continue using/developing the eAthena server and the apparent delay (abandonment?) of the idea to transition to an ‘action-based’ system, more closely related to that of Secret of Mana, was preventing the game from fulfilling its true potential; inhibiting the realization of the original vision and intent upon which the project was apparently founded. I realize that may be an egregious oversimplification, or even a total misunderstanding of the facts, surrounding various design and technical decisions. I promise that I intend no offense by expressing that opinion. To put it simply, ‘TMW-eA’ always seemed to me like a crutch in dire need of kicking.

Regardless of my admittedly unsolicited, somewhat incendiary opinions, whatever ends up happening and whatever direction TMW takes, I sincerely wish you all the best. Stay safe and good luck with your various endeavors. I apologize once more for adding fuel to the flame. I will probably regret doing so. :|

Take 'er easy, everyone.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor »

Hi Dave,

It's the official server-move flamewar topic, so this is where it goes, if it wants to get said. The title is clear, so anybody that doesn't want to read it, doesn't have to. If they enter this topic, they should know about what they will be reading. So, thanks for posting.

I think the original developers, Bjorn and Elven, pretty much agreed with you, that eAthena was a crutch, needing to be kicked. When it wasn't kicked, and instead became the game, they were quite disappointed, and sort of lost interest. Ironically, this is from where Platyna's claims stem. In her view, if she hadn't pushed for an active eAthena-based live server and the forums to go with it, then all of this would have just died out, and we would not be having this conversation, because these forums and game would not exist. She claims that she was more than a host; she was the driving force behind the eAthena-based live server. Not a testing server, but a live one, complete with website, forums, and eventually a small but thriving community.

Was Platyna also some of those negative character traits you mentioned? Quite probably. The two don't cancel each other out, and both can be quite true of the situation.

As for legal and licencing, well the law does matter. But there are many jurisdictions, and the costs would be enormous for a comparatively small payoff. So I doubt anything will ever happen regarding that. Always better to settle things amicably outside the courts, whenever possible. The only clear winners in a court case are usually the lawyers.

The only true test of whether a change is good or not, is time. Time will tell. It's quite possible that neither solution was all that great, and that in the future, new options for the game's management will become available. All I really care, is that the community of players and contributors are kept in the loop, treated with respect, and still have access to enjoy this most interesting project, for as long as they wish.

EDIT:

To get a view of what a world with just Manaserv, Bjorn, and Elven would look like (without Platyna and an eAthena live server), head on over to Bjorn's Source of Tales webpage:

http://www.sourceoftales.org/news.html

It used to be called Lurking Patrol Comrades, and it won the Liberated Pixel Cup! But it's kind of dead. No community. No forums. No discussions such as these.
Last edited by blackrazor on 30 Nov 2013, 23:24, edited 1 time in total.
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