Update Procedure

[SriNitayanda]

Reading the some comments in previous posts and some feedback from players in game about the last update made me think we need more organized update procedure. we got testers, a working testing server etc... so why not inform players or at least the testing group which consists of some dedicated players about new updates, what is needed to be tested and what is going to be released in the next update.

Last update happened like this in my view, o11c anouncing a restart not mentioning any of the new changes that are going to happen, i thought to myself probably the annual christmas quests are going to be enabled and skeleton charm is going to be deactivated. however the changes that were going to happen were the new icons, the new behavior of items when you dont meet the requirement to wear it and new behavior of mobs in gy. also news feed doesn't say anything about the new behavior of mobs in gy.

Like you can see players are not so happy about the new change to gy, archers and speed warriors below 90 got hard time hitting skulls which really makes the gy not as friendly for leveling like it was before. (without the banshee bow archers at all levels got hard time hitting skulls, unless focused on m. eye at level 99). i think like cassy that this change needed to be pushed after the release of the crypt. Besides this change i heard some players are not happy about the item requirement behavior, you probably ask how can it be well here is some comments from logs:

[00:52] NitayandaRama: cant wear lazurite anymore
[00:53] Chay: thats because apparently devs think they shouldnt be equipped without meeting the requirements
[00:53] willee: because devs play a lot
[12:16] Shainen: all these nice new pixal art updates and now I can't wear my LazRobe
[12:18] pclouds: it does not make sense, I have a robe but I can't wear it?

maybe this items were not supposed to be equipped when requirement are not met but players found few uses to the way it was till the update: as another accessory, in pvp as archer to have slightly better asorm, some tank mages used the bull helmet to get the +1 def compared to warlord helmet, hell i even heard of archers who had less than 80 dex just to use the banshee without its -150 penalty to hp or its life leaching penalty just to get the 90+ dmg compared to 70+ dmg from forest bow. besides it was a nice way to show what you gained in illia after finishing the quest, like people show staves or hats they win in cindy.

now for the last update the icon update, i think it is neat mostly but even there i heard some players are not happy with all the new icons, for example the strange coin looks like a cookie now.

Yes icon change and item requirement behavior change was already in testing server before the new content release, however no one knew when and if it is going to be implmented to main server.

in conclusion you see players got some say about the new content being released, yes i am happy new content is being released i appreciate your work, i am just saying it can be done in a better way to suit players will. inform us at least the testing group about new updates when they are schdule and what is going to be released in this new updates and i am sure your work will be appreciated more. i remember before illia release i spent quite sometime with V0id and other players testing it, i know our testing of it brought some changes to the quest to make it more difficult but doable and to make the illia items more balanced (yeah banshee bow kickassed more before). even with quite a bit of testing the quest was changed few times after its release. i am not saying we can avoid all the bugs exploits or unhappiness of players but at least we can reduce it before new content is being released.

[Dyna]

I think that unable to equip thing is pretty ridiculous. The Mana World has always been a class-less system style of game play and it's been a different and enjoyable take on a MMO. Why stuff us into classes now after level 90 just because the one quest decides to give us an item we may or may not be able to use?

Not to mention, some of us just like running around with a bull helmet or a laz robe just because of the way it looks. Now you are taking away our fashion sense too?

[Freeyorp101]

One of the things that I really liked about TMW was the sheer amount of flexibility the classless system offered. You could raise all attributes independently of one another, and were quite free to RP a muscly mage if you wanted to, though that might not be as effective as the alternatives.

In general, I prefer a soft-mechanics approach to systems. There are still ways to optimise, but people are free to experiment. Hard-mechanics make game design a lot easier - you only need to worry about a few types of people - but only does so at the expense of huge amounts of player freedom. It also doesn't make a lot of sense in-character. Why should zapping one more snake suddenly mean you can drape a robe around yourself?

Where is the discussion happening these days? I can't seem to find anything about level requirements on the forum, nor from (admittedly skim-) reading though IRC backlogs daily.

This isn't written to be accusatory, and I hope that nobody takes it as such. I am genuinely curious as to the rationale here, as it is quite different to a lot of what we were trying to accomplish and experiment with, back in the day.


---Freeyorp

[Chay]

IRC logs on that topic:

[Sonntag, 1. Dezember 2013] [12:39:40] <Bernhardt> so... players are not too happy with not being able to equip their illia items as a fashion statement
[Sonntag, 1. Dezember 2013] [12:42:50] <Bernhardt> that said what about we put more of the boni into the equip script? Before it was possible to use illia items as improved standard items and if the player in addition met some requirements they became ultra power items. With the current update that medium version is simply killed.
[Sonntag, 1. Dezember 2013] [12:47:34] <veryape> did that come after the last restart? I thought it had been like that for a while.
[Sonntag, 1. Dezember 2013] [12:48:42] <Bernhardt> you couldnt equip at a level below 90 yes and isis below 85 the rest no thats new.
[Sonntag, 1. Dezember 2013] [12:49:46] <veryape> oh, really i thought that option dissapeared a while ago. Well now i know
[Sonntag, 1. Dezember 2013] [13:12:51] <veryape> woha, christmas quests are live, i'm getting a few t-necks
[Sonntag, 1. Dezember 2013] [13:22:40] <V0id> on initial release, you couldn't equip illia items if you didn't meet requirements (not only lvl, but also stats)
[Sonntag, 1. Dezember 2013] [13:23:00] <V0id> then a bug on unequipping made us fallback on this "let it equip but don't apply bonuses"
[Sonntag, 1. Dezember 2013] [13:23:07] <V0id> bug fixed => back to initial behavior
[Sonntag, 1. Dezember 2013] [13:24:12] <Bernhardt> ah k, fashion needs to stand down then

so to sum it up, it was never intended to be usable at that level.

I myself also prefer all kinds of weird outfits and agree with Freeyorp.

Also it seems that the previous bug was not harming balance as much as the boost itself did and actually turned out as a fashion wise feature.
It did allow more diversity in the creation of outfits. As of now and mentioned in the irc logs there is an aspect to illia items that does not have any effect, the phenotype of moving all standard boni to the bonus boost stays the same. Imo the workaround to unequip brought more to tmw than it disbalanced.
HariRama: yes i fully agree, restarts and content upgrades need a much better scheduling, maybe some admin with a more cautios view towards the player base should be in charge for that?

[melkior]

maybe some admin with a more cautios view towards the player base should be in charge for that?

There were suggestions in favour of such an approach.

They were thrown out because one of the administrators is also a developer, and as such, possesses superior skills in determining whether an update should go through or not, and in what manner.

[o11c]

They were thrown out because one of the administrators is also a developer, and as such, possesses superior skills in determining whether an update should go through or not, and in what manner.

I resent that.

I had absolutely no part in the decision, I only provided technical assistance. I was, however, the one who pointed out the exploit (!) in the *previous* attempt at unequipping.

One of the things that I really liked about TMW was the sheer amount of flexibility the classless system offered. ...
In general, I prefer a soft-mechanics approach to systems. There are still ways to optimise, but people are free to experiment. Hard-mechanics make game design a lot easier - you only need to worry about a few types of people - but only does so at the expense of huge amounts of player freedom. It also doesn't make a lot of sense in-character. Why should zapping one more snake suddenly mean you can drape a robe around yourself?

The problem is that high-level items are *horribly* unbalanced when used by low-level characters.

Where is the discussion happening these days? I can't seem to find anything about level requirements on the forum, nor from (admittedly skim-) reading though IRC backlogs daily.

There is not much *recent* discussion because it is mainly restoring a behavior that was used earlier, but was buggy before.

[Dyna]

The problem is that high-level items are *horribly* unbalanced when used by low-level characters.

Uh what low level characters are you talking about? You can't use the stuff until you are level 90. Last time I checked, level 90 wasn't low level.

[o11c]

The problem is that high-level items are *horribly* unbalanced when used by low-level characters.

Uh what low level characters are you talking about? You can't use the stuff until you are level 90. Last time I checked, level 90 wasn't low level.

This was in reply to people asking *why* the level restrictions exist for some items.

We really need level restrictions for *all* items, though.

[bell chick]

We really need level restrictions for *all* items, though.

no. thats the last thing we need. players should not be forced to play within a dev created box only wearing what devs want only leveling on what devs want at the pace devs want. which is exactly what total level requirements would accomplish

[o11c]

We really need level restrictions for *all* items, though.

no. thats the last thing we need. players should not be forced to play within a dev created box only wearing what devs want only leveling on what devs want at the pace devs want. which is exactly what total level requirements would accomplish

I'm aware that the status quo is that you can level alts much faster because you already have all the equipment from your main, but why *should* it be that way?

Remember that *any* enforced difference between established players and new ones makes the game unfriendly to new players.

[SriNitayanda]

Look i didn't mean to inflame another war by this topic, i just suggested notifying the players before updates happen and let new content some cooking time in testing, notifying the testers.
Examples i presented here of people are not happy about this or that were just an example, i remember some negative comments after the previous change of illia items making them wearable without requirements. so changes in game will probably not satisfy everyone but at least we can reduce this unhappiness bugs and exploits before content is released to the game.
if you think my idea is shitty, no problem just say it. if its not than why not do it?

[blackrazor]

I can think of one procedural rule, regarding updates, that if implemented, might save a lot of grief.

1) It should be considered a conflict of interest, and thus forbidden, for anyone to push their OWN updates to the live server.

The normal procedure should be that you propose updates, you code, script, pixel-art, or map them, and throughout all of that there is a discussion within the TMWC on the merits, risks, and rewards of the update. And if the update is approved, after appropriate testing, then it can go forward onto the live server, but as a fail-safe, under no circumstances, can the author of the updates also be the one to push them to the live server. This removes a lot of ambiguity about who agreed to what, because in the end, someone other than the author is going to be ultimately responsible for the push, and that is a much more tacit form of agreement than a "he said she said" after the fact.

[straelyn]

I'm sure everyone's mind is already made up on this, but to me the most balanced approach would be to make the level requirement part of requirements for activating item bonuses, but that's it. In other words, if by some miracle some noob got ahold of a banshee bow then technically they could use it, and it would certainly be a little better than some ordinary bow, but it's not as if they'd be clearing the desert of every living thing within a few seconds.

[bell chick]

We really need level restrictions for *all* items, though.

no. thats the last thing we need. players should not be forced to play within a dev created box only wearing what devs want only leveling on what devs want at the pace devs want. which is exactly what total level requirements would accomplish

I'm aware that the status quo is that you can level alts much faster because you already have all the equipment from your main, but why *should* it be that way?

Remember that *any* enforced difference between established players and new ones makes the game unfriendly to new players.

the danger is you make old players mad in the hope of improving player retention and if this doesnt work you lose both old players and new. also level limits on items hurt new players as well who may be smart enough to get the right items faster. this game is too grindy as it is. anything that increases grinding by any amount should be discouraged

[prsm]

I can think of one procedural rule, regarding updates, that if implemented, might save a lot of grief.

1) It should be considered a conflict of interest, and thus forbidden, for anyone to push their OWN updates to the live server.

The normal procedure should be that you propose updates, you code, script, pixel-art, or map them, and throughout all of that there is a discussion within the TMWC on the merits, risks, and rewards of the update. And if the update is approved, after appropriate testing, then it can go forward onto the live server, but as a fail-safe, under no circumstances, can the author of the updates also be the one to push them to the live server. This removes a lot of ambiguity about who agreed to what, because in the end, someone other than the author is going to be ultimately responsible for the push, and that is a much more tacit form of agreement than a "he said she said" after the fact.

Well said, +1