automated clients

[o11c]

The problem is that you have a license which demands that you supply the serversoft source code to anyone who asks, and yet you cannot make the same demands of someone who uses it to code their own custom client.

Not quite true.

Neither the server nor the client has a license that *requires* us to release the source to everybody. TMW *chooses* to release the source of the server to everybody, even though we are only obligated to release it to anybody who gets a copy of the server itself. (The same applies to the client, except that by design everybody can get a copy of the client, so they would also get the right to the source).

There is a legal tool (the AGPL) that we *could* use to require the source for people on the other side of the network (though only for new clients, not existing one), but the main reason we have so far chosen not to use it because it would make it hard to develop new versions of the client legally. There is, however, nothing stopping us from applying it to the server or the authorized botting protocol (which is currently only a concept).

[veryape]

As I see it from a personal standpoint I do think that rules are always hard to form in a way so that they work as intended in all cases.

The automation rule is one such rule, the rule was made to catch people who used botting clients to gain advantages in the game. Since we cannot (at least with current tools at our disposal) see what client is used and I do not feel it would be in the spirit of a open source game to ban all clients but the official client the rule had to be stated in another way. What, as I understand it, was a problem was that people were using multiple charachters to stack up and fight mobs thus gaining xp and staying more safe, additionally people can grind lower level mobs alone while not actively playing the game.

To counter this the rules were stated that if someone attacks a mob and are not able to respond to a gm while attacking that person is deemed to be botting. Also if a stack of players that are active at the same time fighting (does not need to be on the same map) are unable to show that those chars are not controlled by the same person that is also against the rules, such a check most often have one run in one directon and the other doing something else.

However, automation per se is not considered a crime since there is no way to tell who is automated for sure.

I think the rules are quite simple and easy to understand, but as t3st3r said it is a bit of a blunt object, sometimes we catch the ones the rules was designed to catch, sometimes we catch someone who used automation and forgot to turn it off while afk. Sure there can be an argument about the differing intents and the different outcomes in terms of gains in those two cases. But, and this is a big but, any GM that makes judgement-calls on vague grounds about intentions etc is under great threat of losing credibility, what says that they does not apply a softer judgement for their friends in game etc?

I am afraid that going with "In the spirit of the law"-judgements would just make the forums a flame fest about gm-friends, nepotism and other crap, even if it were not the case.

And the first ban = reset, the second is a permanent ban so you are allowed back after one mistake. I think that all crimes happens because of circumstances, I judge people differently morally because of the whole crime scene rather than the crime. There has been bans dished out where I wanted to high-five strangers on the bus and there is others that I thought were harsh because of the circumstances.

In my view the community knows the difference in moral, a cheater is a cheater, and we all know one when we see one, but it is hard to write rules that defines that in any better way than what we have at the moment. The community will judge on that rather than on what the law says in the long run, and that is what matters the most.

Just look at the different bans that has been handed out, sometimes people are really happy because GMs/Admins finally gets to catch a cheater sometimes people feel the need to discuss if the rules are fit for its purpose.

And to say anything about the rules, I think the way that they are outlined today is the only way to go. I also feel that using "in the spirit of the law"-kind of arguments would just lead us into a storm of accusations about bias down the line.

[wushin]

Hrmm.... To be fair automated clients may serve a purpose on testing.
I wish we could host a Bot-Friendly server, it would produce interesting results and potentially improve our own AI.
I can see very many ways to play this engine and game.
Wonders if LoF or Evol would notice or allow Bots?

I'm not entirely sold on Bots/Automated clients being bad. I mean it's really more sad when someone is actually sitting there the entire time it takes to farm a rare drop in some cases.

I would say the best way to present the case of Automated/Bot clients would be a "Action Set List" so you could "customize tactics".

[Shainen]

Interesting topic. At one time I had played around with an automated client and I sat watching my warrior attacking, picking things up. I thought, "this is not fun at all and I'm bound to fall asleep then wake to find a ban on my account." So I've not used that client for years and don't really plan to. With manaplus I'll occasionally set to "go, attack, and pickup in distance" etc. then set target mob priority. This way I'll simply keep pressing X until I have enough of my desired items then change settings all back to default attack. Is it automation when all you are required to do is press X? Probably not but what about full automation while being attentive to the game? Perhaps the player has severe peripheral paresthesia and can only tolerate so much time on keyboard or gamepad which then falls to the category of "Universal Access" and the accomodation of all types of disabilities.

[Hello=)]

The automation rule is one such rule, the rule was made to catch people who used botting clients to gain advantages in the game. Since we cannot (at least with current tools at our disposal) see what client is used and I do not feel it would be in the spirit of a open source game to ban all clients but the official client

Furthermore, the only thing you will achieve is some little patch applied on client version to look like official client (some bots were already traced this way by some observers and got idea, looking like usual clients, btw..). And good luck to distinguish it from official client. Even commercial games putting lot of trojan-like features to binary-only clients are not really botting-proof. There're countless ways to automate things. Up to little custom hardware dongle which pretends to be usb keyboard and "hits buttons" here and there in pre-programmed pattern, kind of cheating which is nearly impossible to detect at software because software could stay unmodified.

I think the rules are quite simple and easy to understand, but as t3st3r said it is a bit of a blunt object, sometimes we catch the ones the rules was designed to catch, sometimes we catch someone who used automation and forgot to turn it off while afk. Sure there can be an argument about the differing intents

It's about matching amount of punishment to damage which actually happens from certain actions under review. Treating hardcore botters and minor offenders in equally harsh way is counterproductive and hardly can be considered "fair". It rather looks like attempt of GM to simplify own life.

and the different outcomes in terms of gains in those two cases. But, and this is a big but, any GM that makes judgement-calls on vague grounds about intentions etc is under great threat of losing credibility, what says that they does not apply a softer judgement for their friends in game etc?

Could be an issue. However, it's also hard to tell that judgement is fair when some random person getting caught and faces severe penalty for minor offence while half of game does the same for years and avoids punishment. This is point where GMs can be told about double standards and judgement bias as well. The only difference is that law is same for everyone. But being applied very selectively, nailing down only few unlucky people out of big bunch and it's a big question if it's unbiased selection of those who are punished. If we apply rules equally to all offenders who used automations, half of game should be banned or at least face level resets. Most notably, virtually all TIM users I was able to detect have eventually forgot to switch off some automations while being AFK (that's how I detect them ). Should we care about lack of double standards so much, we'll lose half of players if its applied by letter of law in fair and equal way to everyone.

Ah, and btw, if GMs are given ability to decide amount of punishment, of course those who are unhappy with particular resolution should have ability to request review of their situation by whole GM team in attempt to reduce possible bias. Right now TMW haves court house but no judges. Only executioners. Which is shame IMO. And Judge Dredd style law enforcement where few unlucky persons can face severe punishment not comparable to actual crime. While half of game does the same but going unpunished for years.

To be honest, current TMW law enforcement reminds me Russian way to handle laws, where severity of penalty outweighed by failure to apply most of these laws in practice, which leads to mostly broken law enforcement system nobody actually trusts which is mostly used to put oppression on "inconvenient" people while deliberately ignoring the fact half of country does the very same things.

[prsm]

Ah, and btw, if GMs are given ability to decide amount of punishment, of course those who are unhappy with particular resolution should have ability to request review of their situation by whole GM team in attempt to reduce possible bias. Right now TMW haves court house but no judges. Only executioners. Which is shame IMO. And Judge Dredd style law enforcement where few unlucky persons can face severe punishment not comparable to actual crime. While half of game does the same but going unpunished for years.

To be honest, current TMW law enforcement reminds me Russian way to handle laws, where severity of penalty outweighed by failure to apply most of these laws in practice, which leads to mostly broken law enforcement system nobody actually trusts which is mostly used to put oppression on "inconvenient" people while deliberately ignoring the fact half of country does the very same things.

I dont agree with these statements at all.

After a recent incident, we (the active GM team), spent hours on how we should proceed.

No matter what decision we come to there will be a group of people arguing against our decision. If we go lenient, some will argue we are too soft. If we go hard, some will argue we should have been lenient. Its a no win situation for the GM team.

That is why I opened this forum, to find a better way. Telling us what is wrong without offering solutions is not productive. If the system is indeed flawed, it can be fixed. But no matter how we fix it, someone will have to police it ........ and we have to accept that.

Platyna once fired all the GM's and let anarchy rule, she thought the experiment went well, I did not. We had mass botting and abuse, I think we all agree that is not a game we want to play in.

[SriNitayanda]

Most notably, virtually all TIM users I was able to detect have eventually forgot to switch off some automations while being AFK (that's how I detect them ). Should we care about lack of double standards so much, we'll lose half of players if its applied by letter of law in fair and equal way to everyone.

You know t3st3r i find it funny, that when it is related to some kind of automation you completely lose it, but when it is related to your friends suddenly we hear different t3st3r, who doesn't think automation is so bad. it seems to me you got double standards and you can be blamed for not having a fair judgement either.

If you see someone using automation while being afk you can report it to GM's, like it was done last time and yeah one of our common friends got it bad for it. but to tell you the truth, although the one you are blaming now for many offense's during the years, the one who reported our friend to our other friend the GM is certainly not innocent. our friend is not so innocent either and got some history for using automation in various ways, which were more offensive than the way she was caught for. you can look in the logs and ask the other GM's not the newbie one about it.

First of all it seems we are all biased when it regards to our friends, i can say for sure that if i noticed the incident i would try to contact "the offender" in whispers in order for her to wake up and see what she is doing, not reporting it to GM's. but if i saw other offender i might tell the GM's. it seems to me the GM who first saw the automation, did her a favor in the way he acted. thats the reason it was brought to other GM's and they decided about the punishment. in order to overcome the bias of the friend GM.

I can say that i was mad when i first heard of the incident from the newbie GM, mad of the offender for being irresponsible while using automation, but i have to say i totally agree with the punishment. My opionion about automation is similar to wushin's and Shainen, it might be less sad when you grind while using it but there is the risk of falling asleep...

[Kestrel]

Avoid the problem by removing the grind. If the game rewards repetitive tasks, then fix the game.
There's one solution for you, free of charge.

If you guys would spend your time and effort working on the game instead of posting on the forums, you might get something done for once.

[Crush]

Avoid the problem by removing the grind. If the game rewards repetitive tasks, then fix the game.
There's one solution for you, free of charge.

If you guys would spend your time and effort working on the game instead of posting on the forums, you might get something done for once.

Would you like to help?

[SriNitayanda]

Avoid the problem by removing the grind. If the game rewards repetitive tasks, then fix the game.
There's one solution for you, free of charge.

If you guys would spend your time and effort working on the game instead of posting on the forums, you might get something done for once.

Would you like to help?

Haha exactly what i thought, you could spend your time helping the game instead of writing your own post
but i like the post it takes it to a different course

[Nard]

In my opinion, all players should be equal in the game, should play with the same client.

• Fortunately, it was not the case, before: Manaplus could show this way what the design of a good client should be.
• Unfortunately it was not the case before: This allowed botting clients such as Manabot and Tim to be used. At least Manabot was open source, but Tim was not, and was reserved to players who thought that they were wise and kind enough, not to annoy other players, and to allow themselves different rules. They indeed were mostly kind and often took care of the others. However their bots allowed them to gather a quantity of money and items that had nothing in common with those that the regular player could grind, and thus broke the balance, Not to speak about the unfairness that the use of auto-targetting and auto heal brings in mass pvp.

The Client's features should be allowed by discussion inside the development team, and by development team I mean not only client and server developers, but content developers and testers too, if not some players. If the Rulers said "no automation is allowed" (and this is what no botting means, Platyna was clear enough on this point); then no automation should be tolerated, whether it is behind or away from keyboard.
Now a client is an automaton by definition: for example paths to a target is computed and can be used automatically, the arrows don't hit the wrong target... Then the allowed features and their limits have to be carefully chosen. GM need to look inside a stack? ok, Let's ask to 4144 a command that allows to select multiple chars or mobs and display (log?) their damage gain/loss experience.
Now the use of bot-clients were justified, and I can understand the point, by the huge amounts of items required to complete quests, or by the number of kills required to level, especially around the highest ones. Content developers have to care about this point. This game is free and has to keep players by other means than commercial ones.
Another justification was that when playing warriors, the user could chat while keeping an eye to the char and make the play less annoying.

Other mmorpgs (commercial or not) allow:

• Auto attack: All allow it. It is allowed here (at least a key-press or click/double click per target)
• Auto follow: All allow it. In my opinion, auto follow, as it is implemented at the moment (requires the following player to target the leader, doesn't allow attack not heal) is a nice features, and cheaters argument saying they just auto follow doesn't hold anymore. So there is no reason to forbid it. I dont' see any reason to forbid auto-attack too as long as target switching is not automatic too.
• Multi boxing: Not all games allow it, but when the game has not a high number of players, limited multi-boxing (up to 2? 3? 4?) can be a solution to make play more friendly and keep the players in game. Abuse must be clearly defined

[Nard]

Avoid the problem by removing the grind. If the game rewards repetitive tasks, then fix the game.
There's one solution for you, free of charge.

If you guys would spend your time and effort working on the game instead of posting on the forums, you might get something done for once.

Would you like to help?

respond to troll -1

[Kestrel]

Avoid the problem by removing the grind. If the game rewards repetitive tasks, then fix the game.
There's one solution for you, free of charge.

If you guys would spend your time and effort working on the game instead of posting on the forums, you might get something done for once.

Would you like to help?

I did. I'll just show myself out, that seems to work.

[Chicka-Maria]

IMO, any other client besides the official/manaplus should be banned. This will stop people from using automation to gain millions of GP per day. Everyone should be playing equally on the server.

Surely there's a way for the server to detect an outside client and auto kick it? If so I think that's the right path to seek down right now.

Even if people using other clients will be upset by it, I think it will help the game.

regards,
Chicka

[Wombat]

IMO, any other client besides the official/manaplus should be banned. This will stop people from using automation to gain millions of GP per day. Everyone should be playing equally on the server.

Surely there's a way for the server to detect an outside client and auto kick it? If so I think that's the right path to seek down right now.

Even if people using other clients will be upset by it, I think it will help the game.

regards,
Chicka

The problem is that even the official client has the follow option. Because our "official" is still a third party client and that option is wanted for other games that use the client, even the official creates the problems that wouldn't otherwise exist. I'm uncertain how 4144 feels about it. He is a TMWC member as well as creator of the client we promote use of, so it would be good to get his input on the matter. I believe it may be a problem because it would force what is supposed to be a general Athena-based client to have options excluded for the sake of just one game, which also happens to be the most popular one to use his client.