Insulting

[Siegfried]

Hi,

i want this point for discussion. It is currently not a problem in TMW, but may become a problem in the future. So maybe it is better to discuss that now instead of waiting until it happened.

As the rules say, insulting is not allowed. Or more precise, as Big Crunch explained:

One thing that is not included in this is harrassment. Harrassment is when a player follows, sits on, and generally tries to make another player uncomfortable or angry through a game action.

In the last years we have an increasing problem with religions. Especially with Islam. There is nearly nothing you can do to not make some islamists make angry. Although this applies to other religions, too. Today the islamic anger is just the most exposed one.

Maybe we need some guidelines, what indeed is insulting, and what not. The simple fact that someone gets angry is no proof that he/she was insulted. In general i'd suggest: If it gets personal, it may be insulting. If not, not.

To give an example: If i would say something like "evolution is nonsense", then very likely many people will become angry. But i would not consider this as insulting, simply because it's not personal. On the other hand, if i would call someone a stupid idiot because of beleaving the evolution theorie, this would be personal, and thus insulting.

To go back to islamists and add another example: If you say you don't like islam, this is no insulting. If you call a moslem player an infidel because he/she believes the "wrong" god, that would be insulting.

As i already said, i have not seen this in TMW until today. But i have seen it many many times elsewhere. So maybe it's a good idea to get some reasonable point of view here. Just to be prepared when it happens.

What do you think?

[Steingej Eisenserg]

dont make up problems that dont exist i love tmw for being a game where religion hardly matters ... because obviously we come from all over the world and believe in open source culture... and have learnt to overcome cultural narcisism... "kee bier da? Siegfried?"
*chay worships away*

[Siegfried]

Hi,

i agree, and currently this is indeed not a problem. But i've seen too much of it to believe that this will never happen in tmw.

BTW, i think this is not only limited to religious differences, but to political and cultural differences as well. Although currently these religious differences are focused on and are used to disguise the real problems of this world.

And this is not about discussing these differences. Everyone has his right to have his own religion, culture and/or political opinion. This discussion is about how we should handle it if someone feels insulted because of these.

I like your phrase of "cultural narcism" and yes i think this is currently no problem. But since tmw consists of real players i think these real world problems will some day pop up.

If i'm wrong, all the better...

[Cassy]

I agree with Chay.

but may become a problem in the future

But i've seen too much of it to believe that this will never happen in tmw.

You're right about the topic itself as religion and culture are always critical topics.

But we don't need the recent news to tell us this, religion and culture have always been critical topics since humans exist.
And TMW is a very old project which has run through so many different issues in the past that it learnt from those.

As the rules say, insulting is not allowed. Or more precise, as Big Crunch explained:

One thing that is not included in this is harrassment. Harrassment is when a player follows, sits on, and generally tries to make another player uncomfortable or angry through a game action.

That's all rule #1: "Do not abuse other players (insults, swearing, and the like directed to a particular person or persons)"

[noog]

I always advise and told people not to discuss sensitive issues like religion and politics. We come from different parts of world and we sure do have different opinions on different things. It's important to have your own opinion than take on popularist opinion as yours but it's also important that you dont force your thoughts to others. I dont agree the views on religion of my close friends here in TMW but we dont fight and we still are close friends.

[veryape]

If you say you don't like islam, this is no insulting. If you call a moslem player an infidel because he/she believes the "wrong" god, that would be insulting.

What do you think?

Firstly, this is a game and not a place to discuss religion, we don't want preachers in game, neither for religions nor atheism. I can discuss it if someone asks me, same goes with politics.

I am a political scientist and I have strong beliefs about political things, I also have opinions about religion - I just stay away from venting them on tmw, this is not the place where people go to talk about those topics.

If I see someone "preaching" their beliefs out in public I would ask them to stop. Saying that "I believe in Jesus" or "Jesus is great!" or anything like that isn't a problem in my book, but if they try to force their beliefs on others there might be a problem in my opinion. I have people I consder to be friends in the game that are of different religions and athests, I've never seen it as a problem at all.

Let others do what they want, don't tell them how to live their life - i think this is a generally good rule when talking to others that applies IRL aswell. If you can't live with having friends with different beliefs - I think that the one being intolerant is the one that has a problem to resolve.

[Siegfried]

Sory, i think you misunderstood. Ths is in no way about religion. This is about defining, what is insulting and what not.

It was just easier to explain using a religious topic as handle.

O.k., let's say it in a more complicated way.

Saying anything about any idea, philosophy, religion, social construct, art, whatever is not insulting. Saying anything bad about a person is insulting. Or: If it gets personal, then it is insulting. That line should always be drawn.

It gets somewhat more comlicated if we say something about a person in the public, some VIP, some politican or the like. But that will be mostly theory in tmw, since there are no VIPs

So to summarize it (again): This is not about religin, but about where to draw the border between legal rants and insulting.

[Cassy]

It's impossible to set a border since people feel different about what is an insult and what feels insulting.
Our GMs have this under control.

[Ledmitz]

It's impossible to set a border since people feel different about what is an insult and what feels insulting.
Our GMs have this under control.

Well put. When it comes to issues like this... I think the past shows that it has already been handled. I was always told there are 3 things you never talk about at work (or in public); Sex, politics and religion. I guess it's unavoidable sometimes, but limiting those conversations is always a good idea. However, some of my best friends have completely different opinions on those 3 topics and we do discuss it, respect each other. Those are relationships to cherish... But, just think of the people on here from around the world... men, women, gay, different races, nationalities, religions... and even funnier is that we have to assume that us players are all telling the truth about where we're from etc, because those things are anonymous or made anonymous through use of proxies, etc. If you ever find out that an in-game friend turns out to be something you thought you hate and you have an epiphany that you were wrong..... That satirical lesson would be worth more than any course you could pay for and chances are it has already happened without your knowledge. God, Allah, YHWH, Shiva, Krishna, Buddha, etc all preached good values and the most important ones they'd even agree on. Kinda makes you wonder where all this violence came from in the first place. Ah yes.... greedy and power hungry people. AKA scared people.