The official server flamewar topic

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prsm
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by prsm » 22 Feb 2019, 02:02

well my light bulb went off, you can hide behind alts but not writing styles.

Don't you two post to quick, I need to get popcorn and truly enjoy this!

the immovable object verses the immovable force. Glad I backed out!

Also now that i know who you both are, welcome back (and no i wont say your names,
you would both deny it anyways).

but before i leave, a quick funny story.

Most of you know tmwc and ghp meet the second Thursday of every month for fast food.
Last meeting, we got Big Crunch to read the forum posts, and if you have ever heard BC
laugh you know how contagious it gets. He read the post about "copy right" and he started to
laugh, which made Katze giggle (and she has a cute giggle). Delasia started to snort, which
made wildx almost blow a french fry out his nose, well that made me almost pee. Bjorn
didnt even smirk, which made Silent Dawn laugh event harder. Crush said enough, and the
laughter continued ........ wasnt until o11c and doorsman started slurping milk shakes, did
the laughter settle down.

anyways back at it boys ....... I got popcorn!

Prsm
ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity!
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nech
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by nech » 22 Feb 2019, 04:00

oh please

there's only one immovable queen, and she isn't the amnesiac

now get off my lawn
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 22 Feb 2019, 06:00

@Prsm It's easy to know who I am, I'm not a coward hiding behind stealth identities. This is the one and only identity I have used on these forums and in the game, since 2007.

I had a weird dream, not so unlike your fast-food mash up. In it, Platyna and the old and new GHP & TMWC members were all frenemies on IRC, and the only reason this data ownership thing wasn't yet resolved (with Platyna just giving The Project ownership of the datafiles, in a manner similar to how Elven gave The Project ownership of the DNS Registration) was because you all enjoyed watching this thread play out so much, and a resolution would effectively end it. Kind of like those folks addicted to bad soap operas.

From the FSF site that owns, publishes, and enforces the GPL licence under which TMW OSS runs:
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLOutput

Is there some way that I can GPL the output people get from use of my program? For example, if my program is used to develop hardware designs, can I require that these designs must be free? (#GPLOutput)

In general this is legally impossible; copyright law does not give you any say in the use of the output people make from their data using your program. If the user uses your program to enter or convert her own data, the copyright on the output belongs to her, not you. More generally, when a program translates its input into some other form, the copyright status of the output inherits that of the input it was generated from.

So the only way you have a say in the use of the output is if substantial parts of the output are copied (more or less) from text in your program. For instance, part of the output of Bison (see above) would be covered by the GNU GPL, if we had not made an exception in this specific case.

You could artificially make a program copy certain text into its output even if there is no technical reason to do so. But if that copied text serves no practical purpose, the user could simply delete that text from the output and use only the rest. Then he would not have to obey the conditions on redistribution of the copied text.

In what cases is the output of a GPL program covered by the GPL too? (#WhatCaseIsOutputGPL)

The output of a program is not, in general, covered by the copyright on the code of the program. So the license of the code of the program does not apply to the output, whether you pipe it into a file, make a screenshot, screencast, or video.

The exception would be when the program displays a full screen of text and/or art that comes from the program. Then the copyright on that text and/or art covers the output. Programs that output audio, such as video games, would also fit into this exception.

If the art/music is under the GPL, then the GPL applies when you copy it no matter how you copy it. However, fair use may still apply.

Keep in mind that some programs, particularly video games, can have artwork/audio that is licensed separately from the underlying GPLed game. In such cases, the license on the artwork/audio would dictate the terms under which video/streaming may occur. See also: Can I use the GPL for something other than software?
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WildX
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by WildX » 22 Feb 2019, 08:09

As I said before, even if we all agreed that Platyna was right we are 5 years too late to that conclusion.

I was the first to claim that Platyna was technically in the right. I did it in-game on the same day that o11c and Frost announced the server was going down because the move was about to happen. I said it to o11c directly. I still believe that Platyna's permission was technically needed, even if that meant the move could never happen and the game would suffer because of that.

The problem is, this was in 2013. We now have a far superior host and are working on a new server that Platyna has never had anything to do with. It's not even remotely possible to restore Platyna's dictatorship (it was one, she literally used to call it an absolute monarchy). She lost the war, accept that. She could have challenged this legally, but she didn't because she knew that she would have lost since, legally, the only owner was Elven. She can still challenge this morally, and I still agree that o11c and Frost were morally wrong, but they aren't here anymore. Maybe you should move on like they did.
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nech
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by nech » 22 Feb 2019, 08:34

:lol: I'll go ahead and add the words from your own queen to the list of evidence you want to downplay


nobody relevant ever claimed the move was valid because GPL

you were the very first person to mention the GPL, on the second page of this thread

I'm glad we agree that the argument you raised is stupid and that obviously nobody is going to say that they had a right to move things because GPL

yes you can quote that last part

it's so stupid I'm amazed anyone is still pushing it like anyone ever used it as a reason for anything
blackrazor wrote:
21 Feb 2019, 07:57
Did the data exist before Platyna was Game Admin? Yes. But it was given to her by Elven and Bjorn (they later regretted it, but too bad), and so it become hers
give us even one quote to show that they gave Platyna ownership of the eathena branch of the project

anything on par with all of the quotes from the first few dozen pages showing how Platyna only wanted to become a server admin and only for the community stuff, or how she does not own TMW, or loud resignation topics, or even louder resignation topics where she was resigning as host and instructing the project to find somewhere else to host TMW and asking if there was more interest in her starting and running her own fork (almost as if she didn't have anything that was totally hers at the time, hmmmmmmmmm) - anything at all

for all the times Platyna has resigned from the project, even in a weird, strictly counterfactual world where she did briefly own eathena she's obviously given it back away so many times that if she later regretted it, well, what was it? "too bad"
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nech
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by nech » 22 Feb 2019, 09:55

while you're at it, check out this archive.org snapshot of Platyna's profile from 2007, when you claim to have joined

please read what word is under her avatar

then start accusing archive.org of getting in on the history rewriting conspiracy too or whatever you need to do to protect your psyche



man this is a blast from the past

see this 2008 snapshot of Player Talk (and take note of who got the Moderator green and who got the Administrator red on "her" forums)

you can even see a certain someone had recently started the timeless passive aggressive "Poll: Should an admin promote his family members for eg. GMs?" thread

good times

perhaps not as good as someone arguing against themselves for six years straight, but that's admittedly pretty hard to top
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 22 Feb 2019, 10:12

@WildX Commercial court cases are expensive, we're talking 10's or 100's of thousands of dollars. You honestly think Platyna has that kind of cash? Do you think anyone is going to spend that kind of money to fight over a nearly dead 2D MORPG programmed in a stripped out RO Emulator (eAthena)? It's not like she didn't try to assert her rights, from 2013 to the present, and this 57+ page thread is proof of that. She just didn't take it to the courts, as far as I know.

Personally, I wish you guys had been successful in approaching her, and persuading her to give over her rights to the data, to The Project, for the good of the game. Just like Elven did with the DNS Registration, once you guys finally made a legal 501(c)(3) organization to where it could be properly donated.

I still eagerly await the future, where one day you guys will hopefully have your planned Evol / TMW fusion completed. A fresh game, with fresh databases, and a fresh start. That would be nice to see.

I know it was a dictatorship under Platyna. I know many of the contributors and GMs (staff) were miserable and felt unappreciated under her thumb. But that, by definition, makes her not merely the host, but the Game Admin and sole arbiter, because mere hosting services cannot create those sorts of situations. I appreciate your candor. It is refreshing to read someone with some degree of honesty give a fair impartial description of the situation. That is how I remember you back then, as well, and it is to your credit that you have that capacity.

Like I said previously, if you're going to go for option (3), at least be honest and humble about it. Although I will always hold out hope that one day, Platyna will see that the best (karmic positive) outcome for this project's survival, at least with the specific virtual world that was cultivated on Platinum, would be for her to donate her data rights to The Project's 501(c)(3). But first, you guys would have to develop the fortitude to stop antagonizing her when she comes on here, and try to patiently reason with her, even if she can be excruciatingly difficult. She has something The Project needs, and it behooves you guys to work on that, in my opinion. She has not run her own TMW server for years now, so maybe the time is right for a fresh approach to dealing with the issue. Certainly, your candor, WildX, will be required. People cannot go in, guns blazing, like Prsm or his stealth trolls, just to antagonize Platyna. That will never work. I honestly hope your more impartial vision could be the bridge that finally allows the impossible to happen, and closes the gap that might finally allow Platyna to make the donation that The Project so desperately needs. I wish you the best of luck with that. Nothing would make me happier than seeing a resolution where Platyna makes a voluntary donation that ends this disagreement once and for all, and sets all on a path to better karmic outcomes.

P.S. Elven might be the project's founder. But founder is not owner. Having owned the DNS registraton at one point isn't legally binding either. That is where GPL licencing comes in. Everybody can get a copy of the TMW server, to run on their own machines. There could be one, or tens, or thousands, in theory. Elven doesn't own the output (player databases forming virtual worlds) from any of them, unless he has jurisdiction over the machine(s) running them. Regardless of cherry-picked posts on the internet, if Platyna believed herself to be dictator, absolute queen, game admin, sole arbiter of the iteration running on her Platinum, a machine under her sole jurisdiction, and everyone else fled from her, because they felt that way too, and hated it, then that, by definition, makes it true, and makes the virtual world (player databases) that were on Platinum her property. Elven, as founder (or even as owner) of a project licensed under GPL, can exert no claim, just as he can exert no claim on any other iterations of TMW's data outputs, running anywhere else, at any time or place, on any machine not under his jurisdiction. None of this stops Platyna from voluntarily donating her data to The Project's 501(c)(3), and I sincerely hope that she does, for the good of the game.
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Where did the data heist flamewar thread move to now?

Post by blackrazor » 22 Feb 2019, 17:05

Where did the data heist flamewar thread move to now?
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gumi
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Re: Where did the data heist flamewar thread move to now?

Post by gumi » 22 Feb 2019, 17:32

it's been moved temporarily while we sorted out a situation; it will be back in a few hours, please wait

EDIT: there you go :alt-3:
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 22 Feb 2019, 17:52

Thanks, is there any way I can take a printable version of the whole thing in one go, instead of just 1 page at a time?
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gumi
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by gumi » 22 Feb 2019, 18:05

blackrazor wrote:
22 Feb 2019, 17:52
Thanks, is there any way I can take a printable version of the whole thing in one go, instead of just 1 page at a time?
Unfortunately, phpBB has no built-in function to print all posts from a thread
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by wushin » 22 Feb 2019, 18:33

It was decided that the accounts were in fact owned by the users and not the project or the host. Anyone who wanted their information nuked, we complied. Platy retained a complete copy and structure of her organization and we didn't touch anything on platinum. The community spoke and has spoken about which fork was the right fork. TMW.org experienced and continues to experience bursts of activity. The .net server has been offline so long the DNS is owned by some random domain camper. We've actual license files and authorship given to us because our project cared about copyleft IP. We got the DNS permission because even a fonder almost a decade removed from the project heard the pleas of the players. The entire project is now easier to join and participate without the need to have to beg a tyrannical host for permission. We amended animosities with prior forks and rejoined TMW & Evol. The Evol-TMW group has proven itself time and time to be the driving force behind all development.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 22 Feb 2019, 18:53

@wushin
Output is owned by the person or organization with sole jurisdiction of the machine. Users can always opt to have their info removed. This balance existed before you, and will continue on after, and applies on a much larger scale than this project.

Copying is touching. It is more accurate to say that you did not delete or modify anything on Platinum.

Communities don't get to decide what is legal in isolation to larger forces, otherwise we would all have to endure legal mob lynchings in the news. Thankfully, not. In any case, the revolutionary meritocracy decided. And the community took the path of least resistance.

Elven donated the DNS Registration to the project, once it had the legal capacity to accept such a donation as a 501(c)(3), of which I approve. I would also approve Platyna donating her data rights to the project's 501(c)(3). But that is her choice to make.

Hosts cannot, by definition, be tyrannical. Only Game Admins have the power to create those sorts of situations.

I approve of a Evol / TMW fusion, with fresh game, fresh player databases, and fresh start. I hope that will arrive soon.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by Freeyorp101 » 22 Feb 2019, 19:09

I don't think anything has changed since my [last posts] on the issue.

With that said, one side was far more willing to make statements than the other at the time. If that has changed, or any new evidence has arisen, I could look into matters again. I haven't seen anything to that effect yet.


---Freeyorp
(09:58:17) < tux9th> Freeyorp: your sig on the forums is kind of outdated
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 23 Feb 2019, 01:26

@Freeyorp I went back and reread a lot of your posts, and they are as I remember them, a very meticulous and unbiased research into everything that was written by the principal actors on IRC, forums, and other media over the years. My main critique of such an approach in that from a legal, operational, and moral perspective, you cannot acquire, or assign away your rights by IRC and forums, rendering a lot of what was written, potentially irrelevant. Indeed, some rights are inalienable, meaning you cannot even assign them away by contract.

They say possession is 9/10ths of the law, assuming you haven't stolen anything, and so perhaps a more meaningful, fruitful approach would be to look at what each person did, and not so much what they wrote. What were their roles? Did those roles come with certain legal entitlements and limitations? Were there any legal contracts? Keep in mind, that a GPL license is a legal contract. Was any physical property involved, like physical computers, and who had legal jurisdiction of those?

The Project had a very convoluted command and staff structure on paper, like that of a much larger organization with different departments and subsidiaries, but operationally, there is often only one person in charge of a particular thing. And you can have different people in charge of different particular things. You just have to define the boundaries of those particular things.

Since the accumulated works of client, server (code), art and scripting assets all share a common licence, GPL, and reside together in one package, or can be acquired together, for free, by anyone, then all of that might be considered one particular thing. With a conventional copyright, things would be a lot more complicated, as many authors did many sub-portions over time, but the overarching GPL license governing their work serves to simplify that a lot. You see how I focus on the actual thing, its state of being, instead of what all the people said about that thing, over time?

Since anyone can acquire an identical copy on their own, for free, (again ... GPL), other particular things might be the outputs of each of those copies, running on machines under the sole jurisdiction of a particular person or organization. Why do I divide it here? Was it anything anyone wrote on IRC? No. I define this boundary by the changing of the contract. You see, GPL does not apply to the output of a running GPL-licensed software, and so the boundary is there, at the point of a contractual or copyright change.

Anyhow, I leave the rest for you, as food for thought. I know you are a deep thinker, and fair minded, as well. I wanted to share with you my process, and the methodologies that I used to arrive at some of the conclusions that I did. Be well, and as always, thank you for your insights.
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