The official server flamewar topic

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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by WildX » 24 Feb 2019, 09:49

blackrazor wrote:
22 Feb 2019, 10:12
persuading her
Have you ever talked to her?
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 24 Feb 2019, 13:34

@WildX Me? Very rarely and not that much; we're not close, Platyna and I. That's why I keep saying, I'm not doing this for her. I gain nothing, at least nothing from others. I just want it resolved, so the game has a chance to move forward with the best possible karmic outcome.

Of all the remaining TMWC, I think you are the best bet to approach her, and also Freeyorp. Both of you are unbiased, and can see multiple facets of this issue. Just be humble, speak from the heart about what you want for this game, and don't antagonize her. That's my best advice. Good luck!
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by WildX » 24 Feb 2019, 18:58

If you want the best for this project, get involved with its development. The same goes for Platyna. I would have nothing against her within the project if she wanted to join, we are simply not looking for a host at the moment. Given her knowledge and experience she will understand that our current hosting situation is a very good deal that benefits TMW.

If she wants to help in any other capacity she is more than welcome to do so. I never turn away contributors and I'm not one to hold grudges. As wushin says, TMW isn't just one person. There's no owner. It's a collective effort.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 24 Feb 2019, 22:43

@WildX I never said that Platyna should host. I said she should donate her data rights to The Project's 501(c)(3). But that is her choice to make. Personally, I just want to see this thing resolved, in a karmic satisfactory manner.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by Freeyorp101 » 24 Feb 2019, 23:18

blackrazor wrote:
23 Feb 2019, 01:26
Indeed, some rights are inalienable, meaning you cannot even assign them away by contract.
Unalienable rights are specific and jurisdiction dependent, so you'll need to provide more than an implication if you want others to evaluate or help with your claim. If the implication is that, if it is shown that Platyna had rights of ownership at some point, then there is some unalienable right that prevents transfer, you'll need to first establish that Platyna had rights of ownership (the central point of contention), identify the right in question and how it applies, and explain how this would also not preclude "it was given to her by Elven and Bjorn (they later regretted it, but too bad), and so it become hers" - which, pending evidence, you seem to want to use to establish ownership?

I'd to take the rest of the post to focus on the central point of contention, ownership.
blackrazor wrote:
23 Feb 2019, 01:26
My main critique of such an approach in that from a legal, operational, and moral perspective, you cannot acquire, or assign away your rights by IRC and forums, rendering a lot of what was written, potentially irrelevant.
Regarding media and validity of evidence, there is a [court case you might be interested in], where a contributing piece of evidence consisted of a private message that included two adjacent emoji - high heels, and money - along with the text "Teamwork make the dream work". The prosecution argued that this conversation implied prostitution, while the defense argued that this was trying to ignite a romantic relationship. After lengthy deliberation, and consultation with outside expertise, the court decided this was evidentiary support in favour of the prostitution interpretation.

Courts will very rarely discard evidence entirely. I cannot emphasise this enough. They will often consider evidence and decide that it is very weak however, or insufficient for a particular purpose. This is important, as even circumstantial evidence can build up to a very strong case, given enough pieces. There are many pieces of evidence here, and not all of them go in the TMWC's favour. Allegations and witness statements of secrecy contributes under the representative heuristic, and that someone with very high levels of access within the TMWC has changed Platyna's forum rank to read "former dictator" (really?) does not particularly aid the TMWC's cause, even if nothing is knockdown evidence in the way that a notarised contract might be.

But, overwhelmingly, evidence does go in the TMWC's favour. To list everything - from Platyna declaring that it would be impossible to sue her, as the Platinum ToS makes it clear that the host is not responsible for what TMW does; to forum threads specifically about organisational structure in which all parties were amicable participants producing an organisational chart clearly keeping Elven above all else - would be a herculean effort, but to pick one particular example, consider the last time Platyna and the TMW Project sought to part ways. From her own announcement, in [My resignation from being TMW host.]:
Platyna wrote:
06 May 2009, 09:20
I was never hidding anything from the community, so I would like to tell you that I have given it some thought, and decided to resign from hosting TMW.

The reason is, that since we are no longer friends with Bjorn and I am no longer involved into the project, I have no motivation to sustain DDoS attacks and constant hax attempts. This sever runs since 1997 and users pay for the service not with money but with their gratitude and respect to the admin. Bjorn obviously stoped to pay for the service long time ago.

This is not revenge, any of you can sustain problematic situations for a friend but no one will like to have problems for some ungrateful stranger. At least I do not simply shut down everything like Ultramichy did, Bjorn is given a comfortable amount of time to move.

[...]

I am interested to still host my own TMW server, since there are quite a few people who wanted a fork, they may contact me via email platyna at platinum.linux.pl
Expectations about what was to go where are made very clear, along with her desire to start a fork that would be her very own. The TMW Project took her declaration of resignation very seriously, and [put forth every effort to and succeeded at finding other hosting for the game], before Platyna decided to retract her resignation. It's no notarised contract, but if I were a court and had to either rule on the meaning of this public announcement and ensuing activity, or the meaning of the two emoji in the case above, I have no doubt as to which I would find the easiest.

And beyond that one example, the historical record is, to date, unanimous in the direction it points. Not for lack of trying: many years ago, for three months straight I tried, from public appeals for submission to asking question at a quiet moment on Platyna's own server, where I had hoped she would have felt most comfortable, and where she said goodbye and logged off rather than respond! I have done my best to find all evidence and facts, with the end result presented here many years ago. With regards to ownership, any hypothetical legal remedy against the TMWC at the standard of the balance of probabilities - much less the far stricter standard of beyond all reasonable doubt, just in case any usage of the term "criminal" was meant as anything more than the sadly common contemporary hyperbolic use - is beyond the realm of possibility, as it stands.

In the face of this, your dedication to absolute rigor and concern for the safety of the project is admirable. Your expansive speculation about the GPL, or other legal theories that might have come into play - if anything ever surfaced that found that Platyna was the "top administrator, final arbiter, and data-file owner" against the overwhelming evidence to the contrary - are truly impressive. But given the TMWC's limited resources, I can understand them not wanting to invest in what would appear to be an negligible chance to receive a unilateral statement of non-interest, to guard against a negligible chance that a fair court finds they did anything technically wrong.

For what it's worth, I will always be interested in any new evidence or findings of fact. Anyone is welcome to contact me through any means, anonymous or otherwise. I am more than willing to treat any correspondence in the strictest confidence, should it be desired.


---Freeyorp
(09:58:17) < tux9th> Freeyorp: your sig on the forums is kind of outdated
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 02 Mar 2019, 17:20

@Freeyorp
I read it all, and gave it a lot of thought. Thank you for taking the time to post your insights.

1) Platyna is shown "resigning" or "offering to resign" in multiple posts over her tenure. But there was no mechanism for her to resign. People thought about it. People in the GHP (and later in the then newly formed TMWC) certainly did not like working with her, but in the absence of a formal mechanism, these were just empty words. If anything, this gives more credence to the notion that she was the Game Admin on Platinum's iteration of TMW. It's like a dictator getting pissed at things, and offering to resign, but really, how is that going to happen? Game Admin = dictator. Sometimes benevolent, sometimes not, but always with the final say.

2) When Platyna was finally deposed, members of the TMWC referred to it as a revolution, or "we won the war". Why is this important? Normally, a functioning society (including those in the organizational structure managing online games) have a process for managing conflicts and terminating staff that are no longer wanted or needed. People in the GHP got fired or left, without issues. But a revolution or war is what specifically happens when society breaks down, because there is crisis, a tipping point, without a formal resolution process to get past it. So getting rid of Platyna wasn't a staff termination or a server move, it was a revolution or war, outside the conventional bounds of protocol. Again, this clearly paints Platyna as someone who could not be removed peacefully or structurally, because she was the dictator, the Game Admin of Platinum's iteration of TMW.

3) When the data on Platinum was copied by Frost and o11c, it was not erased. Merely copied. If she was just a host, why leave her with a copy? I have heard weak arguments that a copy was left behind, in case the move did not work out. Why is this weak? Because you don't leave a copy of your copyrighted material with a (potentially hostile) host, just in case you might have to come crawling back. It makes no sense. Even if you expect hiccups along the path of your transition, you make backups under your own control, and use those. The TMWC even said at the time, that both Platyna and TMWC had a copy of the data, may the best server win, let the people decide. Except copyright does not work that way. Either the TMWC really believed they owned it, or they didn't. What they did is as someone does when they make a copy of something that is not theirs to take. You hear of copyright violation by copying data, not destroying or (destructively) moving data. This is because illicit data copiers are inherently fearful; they know it is a worse crime to destroy (sabotage) something that is not theirs, as opposed to limiting themselves to taking a copy.

4) Members of the GHP (and later the then newly formed TMWC) referred to Platyna as a dictator (now "former dictator") and were relieved to "get out from under her thumb". Platyna, as a dictator, threatened to "cut the hands" of those who opposed her, while she was still in charge of managing Platinum's serversoft data. Frost and o11c even admitted that they were afraid of getting caught, during the "move" process, because they feared what would be Platyna's response. Platyna could certainly fire Frost and o11c, but they could not do the same to her. All of this points to Platyna being the dictator, the Game Admin of Platinum's iteration of TMW. This is how Platyna saw herself, and this is how the community, developers, and GMs saw her, as well.

5) Platyna made posts on the forum, stickies even, regarding managerial aspects of the game, the selection of GMs, the copyright requirements for assets (as GPL copyleft), etc. This is not what a host does. This is what a Game Admin does. In all respects, Platyna functioned as the Game Admin, which in simple language, means she was responsible (had the final say) on all aspects of managing and running the iteration of TMW running on Platinum, a machine under her sole jurisdiction. It doesn't matter that Elven was the founder; because founders, under GPL, have zero control over any of the copyrighted data output by the software they founded, on machines outside of their jurisdiction. Note that I am referring specifically to the data output: the Forums data and the Player Databases data, that formed the unique community and virtual world that resided on Platinum. I am not referring to any of the GPL software, code, client, server, art and scripting assets. Just to be clear. These are separate things.

6) A note about the word "admin" or "administrator". In the world of Unix, IT, or business, this term often refers to a middle management person, or someone handling managerial tasks, but not ultimately responsible for, in control of, or with executive purview of those tasks. This is not the case with the title of Game Admin, in this context. The Game Admin could just as easily be called the Game CEO (of their copy, not all copies), the dictator, and queen (or king), etc. Come on, we have all played small indie games running on someone's machine, be it Stendhal, Secrets of Mirage, Well of Souls, etc. We all know what is a "Game Admin" and there is no need to confuse the name with various administrative tasks handled by administrators.

P.S. I think I understand what you are trying to say. That either The ManaWorld Project (such as it was back then, certainly not a 501(c)(3)) or Elven (as founder) considered Platyna's iteration of the data outputs, inherited from UltraMichy, to be part of The Project, and thus their resource. But there is no provision for this, under the GPL license, which defines The Project's assets. The outputs belong to who runs them, from a machine under their sole jurisdiction (not the same as merely a host, just to be clear). That would be Platyna, as dictator/queen/Game Admin ("former dictator", today). Even if she received the UltraMichy files, it changes nothing. Just as had she given the data files freely to Frost and o11c, that would have meant everything. But she did not. One can choose to pass the baton, but it cannot be taken by force, short of an extrajudicial act of war (or copyright infringement).
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by Freeyorp101 » 03 Mar 2019, 09:52

Ownership is, as was pointed out last time, the central impasse. Almost all of your other statements assume that Platyna was the owner, to varying extents. If you do have evidence for this, please do present it. While assertions are nice, in that they can help clarify a position, it's important to keep in mind that merely repeating an assertion does not alone make it true.

Regarding further instances of the representative heuristic (things that X does/does not do), it's important to note that Platyna was more than host: she was also a moderator, briefly a developer, and later lead moderator. The historical record is quite clear about her positions each step of the way; nech rightly pointed out that her forum rank was Moderator circa 2007, though they were incorrect to say that she was reinstated as Lead Moderator by Elven (2009-10-29), as Bjorn gave her full forum "founder" access on 2009-07-06 (though Elven's blessing certainly cemented that position). Moderation being her absolute demesne, absolute monarchy, or dictatorship as you prefer, as I understand it the GMs were rather not happy with working under her at the time.

I'm not sure how you can claim that as there was no written procedure for resigning, therefore a resignation is just empty words. A host stating she's not going to host anymore - or other resignations in other contexts - seems like a pretty clear statement, and there was real activity each time to reinforce that. Her "resignation as TMW host." was already mentioned above, but Bjorn had previously also stripped her of her eA admin access after her previous "Platyna has left the building." resignation.

For reference, and further evidence, here's Rotonen asking Platyna (with her nick at the time set to Blah) to update the server on 2009-01-06 - three months in - and her refusing, pointing him at bjorn instead:
#tmwdev.2009-01-06.log wrote: [2009-01-06 02:27:28] <Rotonen> blasted, forgot the drop protection change
[2009-01-06 02:29:45] <Jaxad0127> me too
[2009-01-06 02:29:57] <Rotonen> hmm, actually
[2009-01-06 02:29:57] <Rotonen> let's see if the community catches that one by themselves
[2009-01-06 02:29:57] <Rotonen> we should probably also have a hidden change every time too
[2009-01-06 02:36:49] <Rotonen> Blah: git pull server data pretty please
[2009-01-06 02:37:53] <Blah> Go away. b_lindeijer is the admin of ea.
[2009-01-06 02:38:05] <Blah> He stripped me of all my rights on ea.
[2009-01-06 02:38:06] <Blah> ;]
[2009-01-06 02:39:07] <Rotonen> k
[2009-01-06 02:39:49] <Rotonen> so we're going to have to do this by the book then :P
[2009-01-06 02:45:05] <Blah> Huh?
[2009-01-06 02:45:06] <Blah> ;>
[2009-01-06 02:45:30] <Jaxad0127> ?
[2009-01-06 02:46:06] <Rotonen> Blah: well, you do have root on the box so you could basically just do anything ;>
[2009-01-06 02:48:38] <Blah> hx m f u cn
[2009-01-06 02:48:40] <Blah> ;>
[2009-01-06 02:49:02] <Rotonen> yeah, so going by the official venue
Pretty clear statements, aside from the final textspeak banter telling Rotonen to "hack me if you can". Emphasis drawn to "b_lindeijer is the admin of ea". As host, she could have abused root to break in, but was responsible enough not to.


---Freeyorp
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by WildX » 03 Mar 2019, 13:58

blackrazor wrote:
02 Mar 2019, 17:20
this gives more credence to the notion that she was the Game Admin on Platinum's iteration of TMW
If that was Platinum's iteration of TMW, then this is currently Microsoft's iteration of TMW? No. Microsoft doesn't even know we exist. We are using it as a hosting service just like we did with OVH. This is the Hercules iteration of TMW. This is a development-driven open source project. No individual admin, server host or developer can claim this game to be theirs. Platyna was undoubtedly the host, an admin and the project leader of TMW. Her hosting services were dropped, it was done badly because of fear that she would hold the project ransom if she found out her services would be dropped. This is also what led at her removal as admin and lead, in order to avoid retaliation and attempts to seize the game for herself. Most of what she lost was due to her hostile behaviour. How exactly do we resolve this? She won't come back as part of the team because she hates our guts, she can't host us anymore and if certain people owe her an apology those people are not here.

Platyna, blackrazor and anyone else: What's your goal? We've carried out this "dismiss them and ignore them and they will eventually go away" policy for 6 years and it has not worked. You clearly have reasons to keep coming back to this. Let's actually start talking possibilities to solve this thing, between you and a new generation of devs who never wronged you. If you want to drag this any further, let's make this a bit more constructive.

What do you want?
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 03 Mar 2019, 17:26

@WildX I have been constructive. And clear. Don't lump me in with Platyna, because we are not allies and we have almost never communicated on this subject, and that has been a consistent thing throughout the years. Platyna probably cares for me as much as does the TMWC. LOL. What do I want? For truth and justice to prevail. More practically, in an ideal world, I do not want or expect Platyna to have any role in the future of TMW, and I would like to see the current TMWC and Platyna come to an adult accommodation over the data ownership issue. If Platyna were to make a gift or donation of whatever ownership rights to the data she may have, to The Project's 501(c)(3), that would satisfy me greatly. But I have no control over any of it. I cannot guide the TMWC over how they might interact positively with Platyna and make The Project's need known to her in a way that would evoke her sympathy, nostalgia, self-sacrifice, and positive feelings. Neither can I influence Platyna to take a course of action for the betterment of the game. I know what needs to be done, but I'm not in a position to do it. All I can do is continue to highlight the issue, in this thread, so it doesn't get swept under the rug, as I'm sure many would prefer to happen.

@Freeyorp Those were not merely assertions. Those were actual things said, and deeds done. You are the expert of sieving through the historical record for the exact time and place of the quote, so I leave that as an exercise for you, since you claim to be impartial. I see the various interpretations, but fundamentally I believe ownership of the Platinum data files (not the project, just the data files!) rests with Platyna, because that is what GPL says about the output. Dragging Microsoft or OVH into it is just more red herring, and I have been abundantly clear on the differences between a hosting service and a Game_Admin_Queen_on_her_own_Machine. Maybe, with 20/20 hindsight, The Project's 501(c)(3) would have been formed at the start, and the ownership of the data files would have been clearly given to The Project, along with the Domain Name. But that was not done, and not having done that at the appropriate time has consequences, at least hypothetically. You need Platyna, just like you needed Elven, to fix this retroactively, after the fact. It was nice that Elven cooperated for his part by donating the Domain Name. Then again, he has a disposition more in alignment and you did not antagonize each other, and that undoubtedly made things easier. It might be harder with Platyna, but you should at least try. Just as you noted that she was responsible and did not abuse root or access (unlike TMWC's Frost and o11c), she can be a hothead, but I think in the end she does the responsible adult thing, and you should count on her for that.

P.S. I feel the need to explain, forever it often seems, how the TMWC took and is still using something that is not, or may not, be theirs. The point is for you to approach Platyna with the appropriate humility and contrition over what happened. If you go in thinking that you are completely 100% in the right about this ownership thing, how is that going to work exactly? The point is not to needlessly antagonize Platyna. It is to come to an adult accommodation so that she has the space to do the right thing for The Project, which would be for her to donate whatever rights she has regarding the data, to The Project, just as Elven did with the Domain Name.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by WildX » 03 Mar 2019, 18:23

This is just an irrelevant discussions over how to satisfy you personally over this issue. We have explained why Platyna never owned TMW, we have explained we don't own TMW. If you want to convince Platyna to make a donation of something she doesn't own as a symbolic gesture, I suggest you message Platyna directly. I understand you want justice, but justice isn't always your justice. This topic is so done and so over-discussed it's basically a big fat joke at this point. I have nothing more to add here. I don't think anyone has.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 03 Mar 2019, 18:51

@WildX And that is exactly why it continues, to this day. It's not personal. It's just what it is.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by Freeyorp101 » 03 Mar 2019, 20:09

blackrazor wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 17:26
fundamentally I believe ownership of the Platinum data files (not the project, just the data files!) rests with Platyna
Then we're back to [observing that the data files were to go with Bjorn, with Platyna looking to make a fork of her own].
blackrazor wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 17:26
You are the expert of sieving through the historical record for the exact time and place of the quote, so I leave that as an exercise for you
If there is nothing to add that may break the impasse, then there is nothing further to say.


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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by prsm » 04 Mar 2019, 01:47

I am walking away from this forum!

I started off saying i would not post derogatory things, and i did.

I apologize for that!

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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by Platyna » 04 Mar 2019, 05:32

Blackrazor, you are wasting your time, they fail to understand, or (what is more possible) they pretend to fail to understand, that without "Platinum's iteration" there would be no TMW, as initial creators simply wanted to abandon the server, the community and create some sort of never ending developer sandbox. And I fought quite a war to keep those things, I won them, so they are mine. And they also may speak bullshit about me being bad (game) admin or a bad host (which is utterely stupid as Platinum has three nines uptime stats) but during my time there were almost hundred people online and now (while I am writing this) there are three, even if there are more and more people playing MMORPGs, so the possible userbase is increasing. I am, as a person with Asperger Syndrome, someone who do understand a little of neurotypical social interactions, but there is something the Stealing Committee does not understand while I do - people like strong leaders and are tired by all that "cute, little" politically correct, "yay democracy" bullshit. This is what eg. Hollywood has problems with now wondering why is no one laughing. Yeah, this is "cute", it is "nice" but it isn't funny or interesting any more. I never got drunk beyond the point where I don't know what I am doing, but it was fun to pretend, to make events more interesting (who knows what a rogue admin will do?), current management has no guts to do such things, they are simply too basic. They copied the data, convinced domain owners to change the domain config, and they destroyed this project. It is dead. This forum is just funeral meal. And there is no "future TMW", even if they would give me back it, this is in the point where we all would need a tremendous effort to revive it, without any hope of it being successful. Also, how many times TMW has to go through near-death-experience for me being recognized as its benefactor?

WildX, I do not hate you, I do simply pity you and people like you. I didn't like o11c or whatever was his name, but he still was a developer. I never let petty personal things to go on the way of project well being, of course I did discipline people, and sometimes in a poetic manner (the hand cutting thing), but I am not you, and do a focus on a task, not about who I like and who I don't. It is silly. ;-)
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 04 Mar 2019, 07:14

Hi Platyna!

I am glad you decided to post. I agree with a lot of what you said. TMWC has grown very comfortable with the "status quo" which involves them being arrogant and willfully blind regarding the data they stole off of your Platinum machine, and continue to use, to this day. I have tried to get them to have some sympathy and understanding for this, but with very little success. But we can understand this; it is human nature. We are a child race, and so it is natural to expect a lot of us to behave as children. The administration here is not exceptionally evil or incompetent, just morbidly normal and average. You merely have to turn on the daily world news, if you ever need proof of that.

Personally, I have never had a problem with you, and I have found you to make the responsible, difficult, and adult choices, when push comes to shove. Let's talk about what is best for the game, irregardless, or in spite of, the TMWC. You no longer run a TMW iteration on Platinum, and haven't for years. You may have been ddos-ed or actively sabotaged, but if we are talking about "the good of the game", then that is in the past, and again, ugh, human nature. The only surviving (admittedly barely, but still) iteration of TMW still running is here, for better, or worse, it is what it is. I don't want it to die. Even if only a few people connect in a day, that is better than a "404 page not found". If the TMWC ever completely kills TMW in that way, let them be the ones to bear that burden, and let us adults in the room at least try to help them as much as we can, not because they deserve it, but because it is the right thing to do for the game. In that vein, I humbly ask of you to donate your data rights, or a perpetual unlimited licence to your data rights, to the TMW Project. That at least gives them a legitimacy in using the Platinum iteration here, and this karmic boost is very much needed, for the soul of the game to have any hope to recover.
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