[DIS] What's a Party?

[jesusalva]

So, I was chatting with Rill and Hello=) and there was a divergence.

So now I want to hear y'all.

Formally, a party is “an ephemeral group made to accomplish a specific goal”. They were created having in mind raids. So any time you would challenge Iilia, you would make a party, and then enable Experience and Item Sharing so the runner is not left out of the exp and loot. Once Luvia was defeated, the party would then be disbanded.

Party also have PvP protection. You cannot attack party members in PvP maps*, so there could be a crypt-like area with PvP, where you could make a party to prevent being attacked while farming, and to challenge a boss in a PvP map where friendly fire is a concern.

Now, this is what the feature is supposed to be. I want to know what you think about it. How are you using parties, or in your opinion, what parties are for?

Please vote

* Some maps, such as arenas, can override this protection.

[Hello=)]

In case of TMW parties are currently quite persistent as such. And used like "mini guilds" or just some fun labels, icons, etc by at least some ppl. That's where TMW considerably differs from mainstream games I'd say. And guess killing fun icons and so on on pretext "its transient" would make at least some oldtimers unhappy. I didnt had icons on my party ever so I have no personal gain or loss from it, but I know some ppl loved this feature.

As for XP sharing... IMO game mechanics could be just more rewarding to "support mages" regardless of parties. Like giving XP for buff/itenplz/etc - possibly based on effect of spell, target details, etc. Requirement to join party to get anything fancy puts just too high barrier to interactions IMO. I think game mechanic should allow everyone to "tune in" in a rewarding manner, otherwise MMO aspect going to suffer badly. And actually how it supposed to look? We start some battle, some "outsider" comes and then they become like "outcast" because healing or buffing them is unrewarding, etc?

[jesusalva]

As for XP sharing... IMO game mechanics could be just more rewarding to "support mages" regardless of parties. Like giving XP for buff/itenplz/etc - possibly based on effect of spell, target details, etc. Requirement to join party to get anything fancy puts just too high barrier to interactions IMO. I think game mechanic should allow everyone to "tune in" in a rewarding manner, otherwise MMO aspect going to suffer badly. And actually how it supposed to look? We start some battle, some "outsider" comes and then they become like "outcast" because healing or buffing them is unrewarding, etc?

Hey, that's viewtopic.php?t=21489 not here, I dunno why I split it in two threads but I did D:

(Well, I split because the results are not mutually exclusive and parties are useful for non-mages as well)

EDIT: Btw, party icons have been deprecated since 2016, when 4144 stopped updating without passing control over them to TMWT.

[Hello=)]

To me it looks like decorrelating down to small manageable things - and its cool. And whatever it brings on my head, I welcome more active player <-> dev interaction, hehehe.

[HoraK-FDF]

Parties are good as they are if all parties are disbanded after a run and none could be created for exp share with an alt or others only for those runs it would be bad, parties that ppl had over years would be lost this way aswell. And why share exp with the runner this way all players loose a great amount of exp since the runner can't hit mobs to activate the bonus so it makes no sense to make a exp share party with a runner since all will suffer where otherwise only one would, unless all get 100% of the exp that makes no sense. Illia works good with inputting names for what a party is needed there? This principle would be good for all other group quests as well just name the ppl that are in and good. Party's should be permanent and you could use an alt the keep the party if you really need to switch out to another party for a quest. I do that often if i share exp with others and after done i switch back to my normal party.

[jesusalva]

As an argument, it is terrific.
It never explains why permanent parties are better, although the text is structured this way. I had to disassemble in five arguments to understand. Only at the bottom part it address the topic at hand.

I feel you are dissatisfied with parties in general, but please try to keep on topic

---

Off Topic Arguments
1. You say it's bad without saying exactly what's bad and why it's bad. You're just issuing your opinion, which is perfectly valid, but if it was supposed to be an argument, you may want to rewrite.

2. "None could be created for exp share with alts" is multiboxing rule, way beyond the scope of this thread.

3. No player loses experience and there's a small % bonus for exp sharing iirc to address rounding. There's no change to multiple attackers bonus. As the name suggests, it shares the experience, so it is evenly distributed among everyone fighting regardless of their role in the fight. Otherwise, only players with combat role (fighters / MVP) gain experience.
Share is the traditional solution to support roles, and usually easier to balance: Just compare healing experience versus monster experience.

Anyway, the argument isn't "all players lose", but "MVP lose" and "players in combat roles will gain experience evenly instead of proportionally to damage dealt".
That is valid argument, after all. Even shares or proportional shares, what's more fair? As if I knew! That's, however, is also totally out of scope of this thread.

---

On Topic Arguments
4. You claim about Illia is, obviously, valid. You can always handle raid parties externally, like Illia does, instead of using party system. That's a valid argument and on topic, hooray!

5. Using alts to keep the party when switching is also an on topic argument, and a proposal for an hybrid system where both ephemeral and permanent parties exist.

Which is interesting, there's no "hybrid" option on the poll, it's worth noting and discussing and perfectly on topic. Although personally I think players will do whatever they want as usual, just like there are guild butterflies (change guilds twice a week) and even marriage had people who would divorce the same week again... And again... And again.......

So while you use party in an hybrid manner, you probably should vote on the main, ideal, or how devs should treat parties. Which, in your case, is permanent

PS. Just as I express my opinions freely even about other people opinion, feel free to do the same and do not keep resentment. Let's try to avoid personal attacks, but arguments are arguments.

[WildX]

I understand the idea of using parties for smaller tasks, but what is the benefit of them disbanding afterwards? The only thing I would change is removing party protection for pvp and coming up with a more flexible and less cheaty way to let people avoid unwanted pvp.

[jesusalva]

WildX, ephemeral doesn't mean you have to disband, but that disbanding is inevitable. After all, you make a party for Iilia, but tomorrow's Candor run will be with different people and demand a different party.

That's the logic. There's no forced deband

And as I said, ephemeral is the official design. That's why pvp protection. It's not for unwanted PvP, but for accidental friendly fire, and for trust when eg. raiding Terranites together.

[Hocus Pocus Fidibus]

And why share exp with the runner this way all players loose a great amount of exp since the runner can't hit mobs to activate the bonus so it makes no sense to make a exp share party with a runner.

Beside that this is imho a quite egoistic way of thinking (why do care for support classes if i am damage dealer?): So far the "how xp sharing will be calculated" was not part of the discussion and can be determined later when the "if" is clear. The system as it is now might (or might not... has to be tested) need some changes. (In the on topic thread I suggested e.g. that there is a distribution system that takes player level into account)

Share is the traditional solution to support roles, and usually easier to balance: Just compare healing experience versus monster experience.

Imho it is not only easier, it is the only sane way i can think of. I have read several times the demand for direct xp by support spells... that would just be highly abuse-able and impossible to balance.

I still stand by that parties would not even be needed for that: just share xp automatically by area and have a timer to exclude non active players. Same benefits, nobody needs to build groups just to betsanc, no hassle in building groups and kick or add party members, no argument about who decides who to invite and who not etc. pp.

[Hello=)]

To me I dont mind use of parties for smaller tasks as such. I just know some old players bothered self enough to get party badges, care of fancy names and particular ppl in party, and so on. So out of respect to these efforts and feelings I dont want to see them upset if I fail to understand what exactly going to outweigh it.

If I'd be honest, idea to demand caster to be in party to put defensive spells IMO feels like ugly hack and usability downgrade, unfriendly to intense battles (are mages supposed to invite random persons to party mid of intense action just to put spells?) and this doesn't helps to start player to player interactions. Have I said randomly healing some ppl or putting def spell on apparently struggling noob is a good way to give them subtle idea MMO interaction is better than solo playing? That's how "players" eventually become "community" getting idea its more fun to play together. Now imagine same sequence demanding party join and resulting complications. I think I'd prefer supportive spells to give rewards without being locked on parties and at least on TMWA spells can do really arbitrary logic. Given all that I'd take such change for bug, not feature. In sense, I like idea to reward runners, but if it comes with mentioned quirks from mage's point of view... uh-oh.

[jesusalva]

You're still mixing up what the threads are about; this is about parties, not about magic. Even if parties are ephemeral, this doesn't means they are the best way to implement support magic.

[Slimor]

Formally, a party is “an ephemeral group made to accomplish a specific goal”. They were created having in mind raids. So any time you would challenge Iilia, you would make a party, and then enable Experience and Item Sharing so the runner is not left out of the exp and loot. Once Luvia was defeated, the party would then be disbanded.

that's the way i normally use them.
but if its meant to be so, why is exp and loot sharing not standard, not to disable, that way the intention behind the Party-system would be clear!

[HoraK-FDF]

Beside that this is imho a quite egoistic way of thinking

I care about support classes but as the system is now all in a party would loose much exp. If anyone in the whole party who does something gets 100% of the kill exp of other party members then it would work again and that is like it should be, but at the moment is too much loss for all others that it makes truly no sense since all players of the party must have hit the mob at least once to get full exp bonus and the runner can't hit like 95% of the mobs.

So if party's don't get forcefully disbanded its basically like now only with a pvp protection and maybe exp share balancing fix should the thread then not be called: "Do you want that parties are needed to start a quest and that they get some fixes?"

Or quest parties could be included that only exist until quest ends or you leave the area.

It would be possible as well to add a player dialog that pops up when one player talks to the multi player quest start npc (valia for example) showing all online players where you can click on players to choose instead of input the names.

[jesusalva]

imo giving 100% to every fighter is only good to break the game balance. Killing a monster in two is much easier than killing it alone. Even experience share will ultimately yield the average same exp/minute rate if you sum it from everyone in the area and divide.

So if we have a runner, a bansheer and a mage, bansheer + mage hit monster for 200% exp bonus.

Currently, this is split between bansheer and mage according to damage dealt, so bansheer used to get 140% and mage 60% from base exp but this has been since mitigated. Runner did not fight, so no exp.

Even sharing will give each participant ~67% exp. The non mitigated bansheer lost a lot of experience, yes. But because there's three people fighting, the average exp/minute will maintain, you wouldn't be able to get the same total experience per minute without the runner due to you dying.

This is, imo, one of the points where I agree with Hocus: Everyone will complain, but it's more fair to the runner as without them, it wouldn't be possible.

But remember, this is not enforced. It's not even in TMWT section. If you want to exclude the runner from the experience sharing, that's a problem between you and the runner. And has nothing to do with this thread.

[cuoco]

Exp sharing is useless right now on Luvia, most times the mage is weaker than the rest of the players and they only get the 100k rewards plus the dropped items in the room, so removing the 10 levels requirement to share exp should make mages have more fun