[DIS] What's a Party?

Content and general development discussion, including quest scripts and server code. TMW Classic is a project comprising the Legacy tmwAthena server & the designated improved engine server based on evolHercules.


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A Party is...

Ephemeral

11
73%

Persistent

4
27%
 
Total votes: 15
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Hello=)
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Re: What's a Party?

Post by Hello=) »

IMO rewards to supportive actions shouldn't be locked to parties, more like giving decent reward on their own, regardless if it party or not. Its weird artificial limitation to make this party-based IMO. As for threads, uh, well, it also partially about "party" aspect and its use. That's why I posted it here. I dont readily understand how to put this consideration about "party" aspect into mentioned thread, would be outside of context due to relation to "party" as well. If someone undertands how to perform this better, feel free to edit or move my message the way you see it fits the bill.

Just removing level diff could be its own can of worms: how it would interact vs e.g. noob players, etc at big lvl difference? Newbies need very few XP to level up and I'd say they already level very fast. Even faster? Just imagine noob joining heavy lifters party on purpose. In principle XP share could scale or something based on level diff but it assumes someone have to code it.

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jesusalva
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Re: What's a Party?

Post by jesusalva »

I will wait for WildX to make a thread about exp sharing to reply XD

Spoiler:

imo the concept of party and support overlap. There's no reason for parties otherwise, barring exp share which in this case I would not consider desirable. As in, experience share is only desirable balance-wise for support characters. That's the premise I had adopted for my earlier proposals, even if I changed most of them: "Party is for support". This premise, however, doesn't take events in account, only raids.

This is obviously an oversimplification, I would still make a party for a raid even without support party members, for sake of organization. Of course, this also helps the server to know who is doing the raid with me and who isn't, and behave accordingly by eg. disabling PvP. But this wouldn't contradict the premise as far as exp sharing is concerned.

Note I'll never include alts in my premises, nor plan any infrastructure to improve or incentive them. I discourage alts. But then, that's my personal view on this matter. It's steadfast but by no means reflect TMW instance regarding alts.

This is no surprise, though, I did defend no multiple accounts rule in every situation I could, to extend storage size and implement multiple storages given M+ does not support more than 500 slots, to allow all quest rewards to be obtainable and all interesting quests repeatable (even without rewards), to use multiple chars, and everything possible to make alts obsolete :lol:
Not very successful, though, TMWT likes their alts :cry: :lol:

Anyway, by my vision, "exp share to level up alts" is a bug, and only means that changing your role is too difficult (another bug, so using exp share for this purpose is duct tape for a bug and nothing more)

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WildX
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Re: What's a Party?

Post by WildX »

jesusalva wrote: 08 Nov 2022, 02:15

I will wait for WildX to make a thread about exp sharing to reply XD

I tried, but I can't see a decent way to split this thread that doesn't risk discouraging the discussions. Besides, is it not on-topic to discuss exp sharing and parties together? They're two very closely related things.

The best I can do for you is move this to a development discussion which IMO it is and seems quite productive too :)

TMW Team member

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jesusalva
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Re: What's a Party?

Post by jesusalva »

WildX wrote: 08 Nov 2022, 11:18

is it not on-topic to discuss exp sharing and parties together? They're two very closely related things.

They are, but this poll is only to discuss about party persistence in practice, which has nothing to do with exp sharing.

Technically, when we begun talking about parties in general (their purpose, features which may use parties, etc.) is when we started a tangential discussion.

These tangential themes, while important and in need of discussion, has nothing to do with the poll. My fear is that people vote thinking "do you agree with all the discussion regarding exp share, dungeons, skills, supporters, runners, whatever?" when that's not asked at all: I am just asking if parties are used as ephemeral groups or permanent ones.

Might I add: As primary role. I don't want bs like "minimum time before being able to dissolve a party" or "maximum time a party may exist", let people use the feature in any way they prefer just like they do for pretty much everything ingame. We are The Mana World, not The Railroaded World :lol:

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Re: [DIS] What's a Party?

Post by Rtfl »

Guilds are organizations or institutions
A party is more like a family

Organizations are made up of multiple families
Guilds are made up of multiple parties

So I think political parties should be effective in the long run

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Re: [DIS] What's a Party?

Post by jesusalva »

Rtfl wrote: 08 Nov 2022, 13:51

Guilds are organizations or institutions
A party is more like a family

Organizations are made up of multiple families
Guilds are made up of multiple parties

So I think political parties should be effective in the long run

Moubootaur Legends actually has direct elections for town mayors. Maybe we should do the same. Wait, I am offtopic D:

(PS. There are political parties in TMWT, don't worry)

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Re: [DIS] What's a Party?

Post by Rtfl »

jesusalva wrote: 08 Nov 2022, 14:01
Rtfl wrote: 08 Nov 2022, 13:51

Guilds are organizations or institutions
A party is more like a family

Organizations are made up of multiple families
Guilds are made up of multiple parties

So I think political parties should be effective in the long run

Moubootaur Legends actually has direct elections for town mayors. Maybe we should do the same. Wait, I am offtopic D:

(PS. There are political parties in TMWT, don't worry)

Guild organizations invite clans to join, which I think is a good element of the game,. Whether a clan can join more than one guild organization depends on the guild's requirements, and I miss this way of playing the game. :alt-9: :alt-9: :alt-9:

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Re: [DIS] What's a Party?

Post by Rtfl »

Loot distribution mode.
Individual pickup (monster targets are picked up).
Squad pickup (all members of the squad pick up at will).
Team pickup (monster targets are picked up by team members)
Guild pickup (monster targets are picked up by guild members)
Free pickup (all players pick up at will)

  1. The distribution of loot is decided by the head of the organization.
  2. All participants can clearly see the [distribution pattern].
  3. The [distribution pattern] cannot be easily changed; (changed by all members with their consent).

    This will solve the long term confusion in the future and there will be no more arguments about loot.

Experience counts as loot, so it applies to the above scenario

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Re: [DIS] What's a Party?

Post by jesusalva »

I understand what you mean. While I still disagree, I feel this is a debate regarding terminology, so I'll explain roughly what we have (or will have when Evolved transition is complete):

Clans are bigger than guilds. There are no squads.

What we have is: Party < Guild < Clan.

TMWA does not support Guilds nor Clans. But Guild is provided in TMWA via a hack.
We also don't plan in using "Clan" terminology, they'll likely be renamed later to e.g. Super Guild or whatever, but we're still calling them "Clans" because that's how RO called them. Using standard terminology helps devs to know what their peers are talking about: Whenever a dev say "clan", everyone knows what it refers to, whereas "Super Guild" would open room for doubt as we did not settle on a final name.
Of course, this makes sense mostly for devs as they're looking at source code and will associate the _clan_ functions. I don't really expect it to be less confusing for players :lol:

As for the loot, it seems... Complex. At least, I would never be able to implement it like that. And sensitive ─ imo, it is not very fair, as noobs could take advantage of any but the first pattern to be OP, while the first pattern will pretty much make their life harder and discourage them from participating in parties/raids/events/etc. But well, that comes with "even shares" concept.


Anyway, in my opinion, you're pretty much saying:

Squad = Party
Team/Clan = Guild
Guild/Organization = Clan System

So it is not very different from how I think, even if terminology is different.
(But in this logic, the only difference you suggested is that instead of party share, it becomes a party/guild/clan share... Which is impossible in TMWA as TMWA only implements parties, and I think it would be complex to solve conflicts as well: Which policy would prevail? Which policy has the final word. What about players not in guilds? Etc.)

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Re: [DIS] What's a Party?

Post by Rtfl »

jesusalva wrote: 08 Nov 2022, 15:01

I understand what you mean. While I still disagree, I feel this is a debate regarding terminology, so I'll explain roughly what we have (or will have when Evolved transition is complete):

Clans are bigger than guilds. There are no squads.

What we have is: Party < Guild < Clan.

TMWA does not support Guilds nor Clans. But Guild is provided in TMWA via a hack.
We also don't plan in using "Clan" terminology, they'll likely be renamed later to e.g. Super Guild or whatever, but we're still calling them "Clans" because that's how RO called them. Using standard terminology helps devs to know what their peers are talking about: Whenever a dev say "clan", everyone knows what it refers to, whereas "Super Guild" would open room for doubt as we did not settle on a final name.
Of course, this makes sense mostly for devs as they're looking at source code and will associate the clan functions. I don't really expect it to be less confusing for players :lol:

As for the loot, it seems... Complex. At least, I would never be able to implement it like that. And sensitive ─ imo, it is not very fair, as noobs could take advantage of any but the first pattern to be OP, while the first pattern will pretty much make their life harder and discourage them from participating in parties/raids/events/etc. But well, that comes with "even shares" concept.


Anyway, in my opinion, you're pretty much saying:

Squad = Party
Team/Clan = Guild
Guild/Organization = Clan System

So it is not very different from how I think, even if terminology is different.
(But in this logic, the only difference you suggested is that instead of party share, it becomes a party/guild/clan share... Which is impossible in TMWA as TMWA only implements parties, and I think it would be complex to solve conflicts as well: Which policy would prevail? Which policy has the final word. What about players not in guilds? Etc.)

Therefore, considering the limitations of TWMA, there is only one way to go :alt-5: :alt-5: :alt-5:
Eliminate the glory of veteran players and turn the party into a temporary team to facilitate the sharing of loot and experience

Maybe this is better than nothing :alt-3: :alt-3: :alt-3:

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Re: [DIS] What's a Party?

Post by dooom14 »

I think the level difference between members should be higher, after lvl 90 the lvl difference should be 20.

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