Some thoughts about development and the "evil dev phenomenon"

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Hocus Pocus Fidibus
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Some thoughts about development and the "evil dev phenomenon"

Post by Hocus Pocus Fidibus »

There is a (not so new) phenomenon where (some) players and staff members get quite angry (and sometimes quite rude tbh) about unpopular development decisions (e.g. - but not limited to - nerfs).
There also seems to be a misconception about who is in charge of the games content and mechanics: The idea, that it has to be the players via democratic polls e.g. - This is not the case. This is a development project, not an on-demand event server. Direct democracy game development cannot work. That does NOT mean that the dev team does not listen to the players and have their best in mind:
The devs are not "traitors" and "tyrants" that "took advantage of the powers to make the game-play worse" and "taking out all the fun of the game". (just a small selection of quotes that some devs deal with on almost a daily basis, it can be quite depressing) - they want a fun and engaging game like anybody else.


Let me pick up one examples to explain how problematic seemingly small decisions can become:

The level cap once was 99. It took quite some time to get to this level but it was achievable for everybody. Then the level cap got raised because of a bug. From a development standpoint there is hardly any question that such a level cap raise - at least so suddenly and out of nowhere (instead of doing it planned and in steps over a long(er) period of time e.g.) - is problematic. But because of player demand the level cap raise was kept. Sure, from a player perspective this is a nice thing, but it comes with many many caveats development wise, and down the line that affects the game and game-play and therefore of course also the players - see e.g. the section about nerfs later in this post.
(Alternative ideas existed (e.g. rebirth system) but because everybody saying "rising the level cap is a bad idea" and making alternative proposals got shut down immediately with quite some backlash (to put it politely) and without even a chance to explain these alternative ideas (and discuss how to implement them in a balanced way), they were never even considered):

Content for higher levels: All content so far was for max lvl 99. Now having the opportunity to go way beyond that requires new content for that higher levels and it requires it quite fast/rushed, but:

Power gamer vs casuals: Some players got to very high levels quite fast (supported among other things by an overuse of unregulated 2x xp events - again fun for players, not so good for the game in total) while many others will take a long loooong time to get there.
Both playing styles are totally valid (as are others i left out) and should be fun!
That leads development-wise to quite some problems.
E.g. so far every new content that was to be added could have been tailored to fit the max lvl 99 and made in a way that grants long term fun (end game content e.g. more challenging/rewarding dungeons etc. - with the new level cap end game is hardly reachable by most players within reasonable time).

Now with every new content it is tough to decide how hard to make it:

  • make it suitable for lvl 99 and the players with much higher level would blast through it (and players will grow out of it sooner or later)

  • make it for the highest level players as end game content will make it too hard for lvl 99 players (and to be honest, developing for just 3 people is a bit frustrating even in such a small community)

  • make it somewhere in the middle is like many compromises: It is supposed to be fun for everyone but in the end it is more like not fun for anybody and it combines the problems of both instead of combining the benefits.

  • make content for both would be (at least) double the work (while we hardly have enough devs to make the work once).

I know the argument "but the high level players can help the lower level players to do the harder content", but that also is a double edged sword. Of course that is (or might be meant as) nice help. But it can also be quite frustrating to those players "getting dragged" through content instead of being a meaningful part of it (and it does not help to close the level gap between them). Also they do e.g. get only mediocre xp and do not at all benefit from loot because of how the game prefers the high damage dealers.

But content does not end with new areas and mobs to kill. Higher level players also want new gear and they want it, of course, to be more powerful than lower level gear. Understandable. But again some issues rises: Make these items only for very high level players will exclude many other players for potentially a long looong time. That leads to even more power creep and an even bigger gap between high level and lower level players and therefore to balancing issues. (The alternative would be to make this items usable from a lower level already, buffing almost all players quite a bit and again requiring balancing).

There are several kinds of balancing issues (e.g.: balancing classes, balancing level difference, balancing player vs environment etc.) and there are mainly two ways to deal with balancing issues: buffing and nerfing. Players love buffing and hate nerfing. Again totally understandable but while nerfing is quite doable, buffing comes with quite some problems:

  • balancing level difference: If higher levels are too powerful compared to lower levels, content tailored to them would be even less accessible and even more limited to a very few. Buffing the lower levels instead of nerfing higher levels is problematic tho because: see point "balancing player vs environment"

  • balancing classes: Classes should be more or less equally strong at the same level (that would include damage dealt, xp gain, loot gain, gear etc.). Buffing the weaker classes instead of nerfing the stronger ones is problematic tho because: see point "balancing player vs environment"

  • balancing player vs environment: If the players are too strong (because they got buffed and/or because of power-creep) and the environment (mobs, quests etc.) is now too weak, the game becomes unengaging and boring. Buffing the environment instead of nerfing the players ... is just impossible: Even with a larger team it would be an unbelievable tedious task. One cannot just make all mobs and other content 10% harder by running a script. One would need to tweak all the values of all the mobs and items in all databases by hand (i do not even dare to estimate how many month (at least) of full time (unpaid) tedious and boring work that would be) and even then it would need to be tested and be redone etc. and it would take years doing nothing else( = no new content in this time) to MAYBE (as it is not done by just add 10% to every value, it is complex) get acceptable balanced results. This is again, not just hard to do (and not because devs are too lazy), it is impossible.


This was just one example of many (quite a bit simplified here). There are several other examples that all influence each other in different ways (e.g. i did not even touch game economics etc.) and it is very very very complex (that is why testing is needed - as even the devs cannot foresee all consequences of a change - and as the test server will most likely never be used enough to get usable test results live testing on main server is sometimes unavoidable).

To deal with some of the problems that came with the level cap (and with some others that were in the game for a long time like "no loot and xp for support classes") there were considerations about changes in xp sharing and loot randomization. But again, like with alternative ideas to the higher level cap a storm of complaints over different channels started without anybody listening to any "whys" and "hows".

It all gets harder because tmwa engine is very outdated, limiting and a code mess (and so far all efforts, some of them really great imho, to get away from that engine and introduce a new game that is better planned and balanced, better looking, more fun and much more easy to maintain) got shut down/failed for different reasons (vague collective hate is one of them).

So, to sum it up: Devs develop this game for the players, we listen to "what they want", we try to translate it into "what they need" to our best knowledge (and finding a compromise for that between us is not easy (quite the opposite), too) and try to make the game as fun as possible for as many players as possible for as long as possible while staying sane and not get depressed.

Take all this with a grain of salt as it is just the opinion of one single dev,
yours truly, Hocus

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Re: Some thoughts about development and the "evil dev phenomenon"

Post by Hello=) »

0) I would intentionally omit names and some details to (try to) to keep that "failure analisys" instead of "attacks". Idea is to try to brainstorm on some problems instead of just blaming each other. Its also a bit more community/player centric view, but because of my background I can tune into dev or adm modes at least partially.

1) Unpopular changes: sometimes they're needed. Badly. Doesnt means its ok to destroy community. Many MMORPGs had exodus. Commercial MMOs could just fire ppl, solved. We dont have such luxury. "MMORPG is community" bites. Some changes MUST be SMALL and GRADUAL. Even if it takes longer and more efforts. Long story short, recently I loved idea (of assasin nerf, etc) as such - but ended up very frustrated by actual implementation, deeply regretting day I bothered devs on certain topics aroung game mechanic quirks.
1.1) We wouldnt stand much more hits like this. Staffers and active players try to keep community together, their time and efforts spent on this worth of some respect, not any worse than dev time. Nobody comes to servers to feel like 2nd-class citizen. Can I honestly say sometimes it felt like that?
1.2) Use testing server and get feedback if in slightest doubt. DO NOT NEGLECT THIS. Please. It does a lot of damage.
1,3) If test server isnt in shape, its IMO something urgent for admins.
1.4) If someone can't perform change reasonably, lack of time, overload, RL, etc: IMO they should reconsider, re-plan, re-schedule, delegate, cooperate, defer, whatever. If all fails, ok: you can't deliver feature in shape suitable for prod env. Put that into TODO list or scrap it, etc. Nobody comes to servers to enjoy breakage. Breaking things does damage. Please understand it.
1.5) Rebirth system is interesting but in TMW it's multifold thing. GY and crypt areas made players reach lv99 too fast. Then its "game over", ppl quit. Just 3-4 times of it doesnt changes much. Real fix for THAT is big, complicated, means HUGE nerf to MANY monsters. Personally I think this pain woudln't be worth of it.
1.6) If should choose between "technically correct" and "happy players" I prefer happy players. Servers without players are boring, (re)bootstrapping MMO community is nightmare. So lvl 135 upsets devs, but community-wise it did lot of good, revitalizing community and bringing TMW to proper MMO state. Many MMOs designed to be played "forever". TMW like got this aspect fixed.
1.7) With changes like GY/Crypt TMW became fast to level. Casuals who're serious to stay level reasonably in at most few days. So problem exists, hurts, but IMO its magnitude is "small". Compared to numerous more pressing matters. Like eg unbalanced PvP where warriors cant do a thing vs ranged classes.
1.8 ) It also prompts casuals to request help of highlevels. It improves "community re-integration" and "MMO aspect". Its MMO. Players interaction to be encouraged.
1.9) As TMW's 18 years shown its possible to live with weird game mechanics and simple content if community makes up for that. I understand it hurts sense of perfection but let's keep it at check. Do we want beautiful world with superb mechanics if happens to be empty? We have to live with community we got and their prefs and expectations.
1.10) I believe there's a lot of room for improvement in this area around dev, addm, GM and players coop. Unfortunately it means devs eventually should leave their comfort zone, face inconvenient thnigs and stick to some compromises. Concrete example: Chronos shop. I know you disliked implementaton. But community-wise it did us a lot of good, revitalizing, sparking boss battles. So, THANK YOU. A LOT. For this idea. And even if its not about dev, its still appreciation of thing that did us a lot of good.
1.11) Content for high levels helps to ensure players have things to do and dont quit on "game over". Helps to keep community going.
1.12) Getting high level is +1 reason to dwell on server and co-operate with other players. Good for community/MMO part.
1.13) Power gamers are balance problem. I know it very well. But they proven to be very important and devoted part of community that holds MMO aspect together. If they quit whole thing would likely collapse. Take them as "difficulty bonus", not "trouble". And, honestly, if it keeps them addicted and they stay, it overall does community good. The only problematic location in this regard is Keshlam Swamp. It separated badly it causes community fragmentation, but it's "manageable" in my book.
1.14) Some ppl got weird belief in "number of commits" thing. I even know some projects (its not about TMW fortunately) who got sneaky ppl inflating their commits to look important while it not really something useful, just looking cool on metrics. Hopefully we're not moving this direction? I can imagine it can be quite fatal for MMORPGs. E,g, I'm not chaingun and prefer to do few "precision" takes on some few bugs that annoyed me most. It could be small chage, but impact could be measurable. Are 20 commits to aux text more important than e.g. figuring and fixing thing that LOCKED MY CLIENT UP IN CANDOR? There's not even commit in git attributed to me, I merely sent XML diff to Led. Guess I'm "getting gameplay going" person. But for some reason I felt tempted to come with shameless self advertisement once ppl bring this. I believe such activity worth of some credit, no? Or do you ppl prefer to have 20 typos fixed, while CLIENT IS LOCKING UP ON BOSS BATTLES? Who of players would bother about typos if they can't play it?
1.15) There're things like severity, priority and impact. Priority of problem highly depends on impact it causes. Even if something is a problem, but there're 299153 more pressing matters, guess what... but ofc it can be nailed down quickly and doesnt causes new problems, why not? Previous thing gives good example on this topic.
1.16) Guess you only know some of these things by dwelling on server for a while and seeing how game mechanic REALLY performs in practice. I doubt dev guides readily tell you all such details or certain workable tradeoffs that proven to work on certain server.

2) Best motivation I ever found in opensource is doing something (maybe eventually cool) that I would be happy to at least use myself. Or obliterating some bug that bothered me and my friends, like mentioned client lockup at intense battle. I can imagine its why I think it helps a lot to actually dwell on game server. Abstract things dumped out of nowhere feel cold blooded, unfriendly, and my experience suggests it much harder to get it right like that. But I wouldnt insist its the only way. Maybe there could be some hybrid interactions or something, ideas how to improve this aspect are welcome.

3) How about getting test server right, and reshaping dev procedures to default to deploying some feature-like sets of changes to testing first and waiting for at least 1-2 weeks? Like what TMW did years ago. It worked. It saved us a lot of trouble. Could it be back to this state of things? It worked much better for TMW earlier. What we currently have is big regression vs this state of thing. IMO its a high priority problem.

4) Try to be more responsible about features you ppl release. Show some support for your code/scripts/content and fix bugs that pop up in a timely manner. Some bugs are bad for gameplay. E.g. its innocent "unknown item" for you. Community wide it brings dumb questions to staff, player wide client lags if they pick that up and keep in inventory, traversing worstcase codepath looking up things that dont exist. Now popular battle now drops it. So ensure your content doesn't causes client warnings you dont understand BEFORE releasing it. Casual contributors can have excuses, I dont want it to be hard policies. But devs who wear formal badge are expected to more or less understand such ordeals. Maybe it could be something like "guideline"?

5) When it comes to "game server admin" aspects now it looks to me like that: many @command only accessible to admins. Some things like server restart or password reset could only be done by admins, not to mention server debug (for server devs). And so on. Yet we dont really have admins who would act as part of "server team" on TMW in a manner I'll consider "efficient" and "workable"the way that makes our players happy. E.g. I'm yet to remember player who'd succeeded at password reset. Current state of things doesnt helps mentioned "tyrants" aspect I guess. Ofc there's no way to force someone to do something - but you can see where it gets us. I really want TMW - and our staff - to enjoy reputation better than that.

6) When few persons decide project future, take shortcuts or something by (almost) single handed decision(s), I wouldn't expect this to feel good on community heads. Not really worked for TMW. E.g. does someone remembers ManaServ, ManaSource and so on? Sure, devs had technically-correct ideas. But failed community aspects and died out as unused techs with empty servers and so on. Even if underlying techs were "better" in some aspects. Guess MMOs aren't about perfection, more like finding some sane balance. Personally I loved part where devs did game-wide meetings with players in "everyone invited" mode. Ofc a lot of noise, some chaos, plenty of time spent on this, and so on. Yet also a lot of fun, better understanding of each others, and overall I liked it. Now team apparently prefers very opposite direction. I take it as big regression vs old TMW dev style. IMO does no good to community and server "climate". Even if it pleases devs, price of devs convenience being high.

Disclaimer: these are my personal views. They could be bugged. Biased. Lacking some details I missed. But that how some things that bothered me appeared for me - and I believe not just me, so as such I simply summed up some "probs around game" I'm aware of.

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Hocus Pocus Fidibus
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Re: Some thoughts about development and the "evil dev phenomenon"

Post by Hocus Pocus Fidibus »

Hello=) wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 07:06

0) I would intentionally omit names and some details to (try to) to keep that "failure analisys" instead of "attacks". Idea is to try to brainstorm on some problems instead of just blaming each other. Its also a bit more community/player centric view, but because of my background I can tune into dev or adm modes at least partially.

Funny, cause especially behind the curtains attacking and blaming everybody is almost all you do all the time.

Hello=) wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 07:06

1) Unpopular changes: sometimes they're needed. Badly. Doesnt means its ok to destroy community. Many MMORPGs had exodus. Commercial MMOs could just fire ppl, solved. We dont have such luxury. "MMORPG is community" bites. Some changes MUST be SMALL and GRADUAL. Even if it takes longer and more efforts. Long story short, recently I loved idea (of assasin nerf, etc) as such - but ended up very frustrated by actual implementation, deeply regretting day I bothered devs on certain topics aroung game mechanic quirks.

Here you say changes must be small and gradual, yet me saying the same about the abrupt level cap raise is wrong because it would take away the fun...

Hello=) wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 07:06

1.1) We wouldnt stand much more hits like this. Staffers and active players try to keep community together, their time and efforts spent on this worth of some respect, not any worse than dev time. Nobody comes to servers to feel like 2nd-class citizen. Can I honestly say sometimes it felt like that?

You were witnessed more than once in trying to bring up players against devs with false claims... i do not see how making devs second class citizens and portraying them as villains will help anything.
.

Hello=) wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 07:06

1.2) Use testing server and get feedback if in slightest doubt. DO NOT NEGLECT THIS. Please. It does a lot of damage.

Already commented on this several times. Others might comment on it, it is not my forte.

Hello=) wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 07:06

1,3) If test server isnt in shape, its IMO something urgent for admins.

Already commented on this several times. Others might comment on it, it is not my forte.

Hello=) wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 07:06

1.4) If someone can't perform change reasonably, lack of time, overload, RL, etc: IMO they should reconsider, re-plan, re-schedule, delegate, cooperate, defer, whatever. If all fails, ok: you can't deliver feature in shape suitable for prod env. Put that into TODO list or scrap it, etc. Nobody comes to servers to enjoy breakage. Breaking things does damage. Please understand it.

Remember... we are not loan slaves, we are all volunteers. And your claim that all we do is breaking stuff is, to put it politely, ridiculous.

Hello=) wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 07:06

1.5) Rebirth system is interesting but in TMW it's multifold thing. GY and crypt areas made players reach lv99 too fast. Then its "game over", ppl quit. Just 3-4 times of it doesnt changes much. Real fix for THAT is big, complicated, means HUGE nerf to MANY monsters. Personally I think this pain woudln't be worth of it.

And again, you are shutting down ideas without even asking about how it would be implemented, just relying on a single word.
Leveling by grinding != fun/engaging gameplay. Having the max level in check and reachable in a sane timeframe would allow to implement interesting end game content (like e.g. challenging and rewarding dungeons) instead (which is hardly possible atm for already explained reasons). Players could either take part in that or decide to "rebirth" and level again for certain benefits. (Or have one character they keep at max level and one they use to go down the rebirth route).

Hello=) wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 07:06

1.6) If should choose between "technically correct" and "happy players" I prefer happy players. Servers without players are boring, (re)bootstrapping MMO community is nightmare. So lvl 135 upsets devs, but community-wise it did lot of good, revitalizing community and bringing TMW to proper MMO state. Many MMOs designed to be played "forever". TMW like got this aspect fixed.

The point is not, that level 135 "upsets devs", the point is, that it makes very needed end game content creation and developing long term fun gameplay almost impossible for already explained reasons and because of that takes away much potential fun. So yeah, with all that what i have in mind is (long term) player happiness.

Hello=) wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 07:06

1.7) With changes like GY/Crypt TMW became fast to level. Casuals who're serious to stay level reasonably in at most few days. So problem exists, hurts, but IMO its magnitude is "small". Compared to numerous more pressing matters. Like eg unbalanced PvP where warriors cant do a thing vs ranged classes.

Everything much past 99 is only either for hardcore grinders or hardcore bots. As you like to to take pride in how much time you spend in the game you should well know that! There are not even a hand full of casuals that are way beyond lvl 100 (including you). So casual players will take 30 years and hardcore grinders will take one. Not exactly balanced.

The game never was PVP centric. Balancing PvE and PvP equally without seperating it ( = having modified versions of stats and skills for PvP) was tried by many many MMOs and in the end it is not possible to have both balanced without a skew. There are clever ways to implement PvP into a game. LOTROs approach comes to mind where on a certain map players can log in with a mob-characters and fight as monster against Players - so there are ways to deal with it but atm it is low on priority list.

Hello=) wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 07:06

1.8 ) It also prompts casuals to request help of highlevels. It improves "community re-integration" and "MMO aspect". Its MMO. Players interaction to be encouraged.

As said, it is a double edged sword. The need for casuals to get help from power gamers instead of facing challenges on an equal footing is not exactly what most would consider fun.

Hello=) wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 07:06

1.9) As TMW's 18 years shown its possible to live with weird game mechanics and simple content if community makes up for that. I understand it hurts sense of perfection but let's keep it at check. Do we want beautiful world with superb mechanics if happens to be empty? We have to live with community we got and their prefs and expectations.

Of course we need to keep the actual player base happy (that we both highly disagree on the best way to do this does not give you the right to constantly claim that the devs would work against the players). But it is also our duty to bring in new players and make the game fun for as many players as possible instead of tailoring it to two or three. (With unpaid devs, a "tailored to few" game would inevitably be tailored for the devs making it - that has to be avoided strictly).

Hello=) wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 07:06

1.10) I believe there's a lot of room for improvement in this area around dev, addm, GM and players coop. Unfortunately it means devs eventually should leave their comfort zone, face inconvenient thnigs and stick to some compromises. Concrete example: Chronos shop. I know you disliked implementaton. But community-wise it did us a lot of good, revitalizing, sparking boss battles. So, THANK YOU. A LOT. For this idea. And even if its not about dev, its still appreciation of thing that did us a lot of good.

Glad you like it, this idea - like many many ideas were - almost got shut down immediately by the same thing i criticize in my post: Rejection without even discussing the whys and hows. And yes, i am unhappy with (part of) the implementation. A part of it worked (making boss battles a thing again and Candor runs more attractive - you see i am not just grabbing these ideas from thin air, Micksha and me worked on that quite some time), part of it is wasted potential now (but nobody was interested in even listening why it is wasted potential and to discuss ways to change that).

Hello=) wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 07:06

1.11) Content for high levels helps to ensure players have things to do and dont quit on "game over". Helps to keep community going.
1.12) Getting high level is +1 reason to dwell on server and co-operate with other players. Good for community/MMO part.

Yes... but for that this high level content needs to be reachable by everyone and for that a sane level cap would be much better. With a rebirth system players can kind of choose to level beyond this level cap (rebirth is, as said only one possible alternative, i have other potential ideas and afaik HoraK has one or two, too) if they wish (and that way open up the possibility to add new mid game quests, too, as these can then be experienced by them with an appropriate level without the need to make a new char) and still everybody could take part in tailored end game content. Leveling and growing can be a big part of the fun of MMOs, but it is not the only source of fun! In many good MMOs it is almost only the tedious "must do" before the fun part starts.

Hello=) wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 07:06

1.13) Power gamers are balance problem. I know it very well. But they proven to be very important and devoted part of community that holds MMO aspect together. If they quit whole thing would likely collapse. Take them as "difficulty bonus", not "trouble". And, honestly, if it keeps them addicted and they stay, it overall does community good. The only problematic location in this regard is Keshlam Swamp. It separated badly it causes community fragmentation, but it's "manageable" in my book.

No. everybody in the community is equally important. As i said: all play styles including (but nor limited to) power gaming should be equally fun and engaging. And yes, the swamp as it is now is a very good example why the level cap raise was a bad move with quite a big impact.

Hello=) wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 07:06

1.14) Some ppl got weird belief in "number of commits" thing. I even know some projects (its not about TMW fortunately) who got sneaky ppl inflating their commits to look important while it not really something useful, just looking cool on metrics. Hopefully we're not moving this direction? I can imagine it can be quite fatal for MMORPGs. E,g, I'm not chaingun and prefer to do few "precision" takes on some few bugs that annoyed me most. It could be small chage, but impact could be measurable. Are 20 commits to aux text more important than e.g. figuring and fixing thing that LOCKED MY CLIENT UP IN CANDOR? There's not even commit in git attributed to me, I merely sent XML diff to Led. Guess I'm "getting gameplay going" person. But for some reason I felt tempted to come with shameless self advertisement once ppl bring this. I believe such activity worth of some credit, no? Or do you ppl prefer to have 20 typos fixed, while CLIENT IS LOCKING UP ON BOSS BATTLES? Who of players would bother about typos if they can't play it?

The number of commits were never a thing and will never be. My commits are mostly not done by myself (i think i did like 2 way back then). I send sprites over to someone more knowledgeable with git and let them commit for me - or have a part in developing ideas and game mechanics (like e.g. chronos shop) that make it into the game (more or less) without me having done a commit... still it counts as dev activity (and that is only interesting internally to see if a dev is still actively involved in developing or needs to become adviser, but not for "credits" or "fame" - if you search for that: you will not find it here.) Contributions of non devs are always welcome of course.

Hello=) wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 07:06

1.15) There're things like severity, priority and impact. Priority of problem highly depends on impact it causes. Even if something is a problem, but there're 299153 more pressing matters, guess what... but ofc it can be nailed down quickly and doesnt causes new problems, why not? Previous thing gives good example on this topic.

Severity, Priority, Impact AND availability. If there's no one willing or available to fix it, it won't be fixed. Welcome to FLOSS, if you don't like it, make a Merge Request.

Hello=) wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 07:06

1.16) Guess you only know some of these things by dwelling on server for a while and seeing how game mechanic REALLY performs in practice. I doubt dev guides readily tell you all such details or certain workable tradeoffs that proven to work on certain server.

I am, with some breaks from time to time a player of this game and contrary to your believe that you like to state loud and often i listen to players and watch how they play through various channels. My conclusions differs from yours, though.

While it is good when devs can also play the game, depending on what part of the game a dev is working on being an always active player is sometimes not needed and sometimes can even be an obstacle in several ways (e.g. time allocation, or by not being fully able to differentiate between "what i want as an individual player" and "what would be best for the game/the broad playerbase" etc.). Also the game is not the only channel of communication (may it be direct or indirect) between players and devs. (By the way GMs are supposed to be one, too, that is actually why GM became a community vote)

Hello=) wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 07:06

2) Best motivation I ever found in opensource is doing something (maybe eventually cool) that I would be happy to at least use myself. Or obliterating some bug that bothered me and my friends, like mentioned client lockup at intense battle. I can imagine its why I think it helps a lot to actually dwell on game server. Abstract things dumped out of nowhere feel cold blooded, unfriendly, and my experience suggests it much harder to get it right like that. But I wouldnt insist its the only way. Maybe there could be some hybrid interactions or something, ideas how to improve this aspect are welcome.

Again, nothing that is done by devs comes out of thin air. Many things are discussed and talked about in various locations (some open to public, some to TMWT only, some only to devs and some just private chats) - sometimes for a long time. Finding compromises is often hard and frustrating but that is just part of development with a flat hierarchy. So, only because you do not have insight into all of that does not mean it is non existing.

Hello=) wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 07:06

3) How about getting test server right, and reshaping dev procedures to default to deploying some feature-like sets of changes to testing first and waiting for at least 1-2 weeks? Like what TMW did years ago. It worked. It saved us a lot of trouble. Could it be back to this state of things? It worked much better for TMW earlier. What we currently have is big regression vs this state of thing. IMO its a high priority problem.

Already commented on this several times. Others might comment on it, it is not my forte.

Hello=) wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 07:06

4) Try to be more responsible about features you ppl release. Show some support for your code/scripts/content and fix bugs that pop up in a timely manner. Some bugs are bad for gameplay. E.g. its innocent "unknown item" for you. Community wide it brings dumb questions to staff, player wide client lags if they pick that up and keep in inventory, traversing worstcase codepath looking up things that dont exist. Now popular battle now drops it. So ensure your content doesn't causes client warnings you dont understand BEFORE releasing it. Casual contributors can have excuses, I dont want it to be hard policies. But devs who wear formal badge are expected to more or less understand such ordeals. Maybe it could be something like "guideline"?

Bugs happen, bugs are taken care of as fast as possible.

Hello=) wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 07:06

5) When it comes to "game server admin" aspects now it looks to me like that: many @command only accessible to admins. Some things like server restart or password reset could only be done by admins, not to mention server debug (for server devs). And so on. Yet we dont really have admins who would act as part of "server team" on TMW in a manner I'll consider "efficient" and "workable"the way that makes our players happy. E.g. I'm yet to remember player who'd succeeded at password reset. Current state of things doesnt helps mentioned "tyrants" aspect I guess. Ofc there's no way to force someone to do something - but you can see where it gets us. I really want TMW - and our staff - to enjoy reputation better than that.

Dissagree. These commands are for a reason only in the hands of people deemed trustworthy enough. GMs already got quite some more power now than they had in the past.
I remember several cases of password resets that were successfull (8 requests were done and accepted by the web form over the last month alone, manual requests are dealt with on a best-effort-possible basis, but as account ownership is secured by email there is only so much that can be done in some cases) and i also remember scammers who constantly found ways to gain access to the game through old accounts they got hold of somehow and caused a lot of trouble.
And although you might not see it directly but some of the active server admins work their a* off to keeps things running and doing a quite good job with that (keep in mind that for many years TMWA is officially declared unmaintainable for reasons).

Hello=) wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 07:06

6) When few persons decide project future, take shortcuts or something by (almost) single handed decision(s), I wouldn't expect this to feel good on community heads. Not really worked for TMW. E.g. does someone remembers ManaServ, ManaSource and so on? Sure, devs had technically-correct ideas. But failed community aspects and died out as unused techs with empty servers and so on. Even if underlying techs were "better" in some aspects. Guess MMOs aren't about perfection, more like finding some sane balance. Personally I loved part where devs did game-wide meetings with players in "everyone invited" mode. Ofc a lot of noise, some chaos, plenty of time spent on this, and so on. Yet also a lot of fun, better understanding of each others, and overall I liked it. Now team apparently prefers very opposite direction. I take it as big regression vs old TMW dev style. IMO does no good to community and server "climate". Even if it pleases devs, price of devs convenience being high.

No impactful decisions are made single-handedly and the reasons why projects died are fare more complex than you like to to explain it here.
The rest is uninformed nonsense (e.g.: the next meeting of this kind is tomorrow and there will be more when there is need for it)

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Re: Some thoughts about development and the "evil dev phenomenon"

Post by WildX »

Nothing much to add except +1 and if it was up to me this post would be pinned as must-read developer guidelines.

It's hard to find someone with a good grasp on "the big picture" of game development and the reality of making content for other people. Hocus put it into words perfectly.

As for the specific examples like the level cap, I think all devs should very strongly consider Hocus' arguments and understand that that the ultimate goal is to make things better for everyone and not just bored long-timers who need some extra grind.

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Re: Some thoughts about development and the "evil dev phenomenon"

Post by Livio »

Hocus Pocus Fidibus wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 15:41

The devs are not "traitors" and "tyrants" that "took advantage of the powers to make the game-play worse" and "taking out all the fun of the game". (just a small selection of quotes that some devs deal with on almost a daily basis, it can be quite depressing) - they want a fun and engaging game like anybody else.

When player base community gets pissed off by a nerfing that spoiled the fun or got issues with clients after unknown items appears I can tell you that it is a failure at wanting a fun and engaging game as you stated.
I understand that development is not easy and require time and efforts but still, whatever change happen in game is their responsibility.

Hocus Pocus Fidibus wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 15:41

Power gamer vs casuals: Some players got to very high levels quite fast (supported among other things by an overuse of unregulated 2x xp events - again fun for players, not so good for the game in total) while many others will take a long loooong time to get there.

Some players reach very high level because they found that combinations of classes, items and environment is fine to level.
Some reach very high level because they are good at RPG games or simply play all day.
Some players just fail at reaching high levels because they don't play in a party and some of them don't even interact with high level players to ask suggestions. If people go solo grinding and complain obviously fails the concept of MMORPG in my opinion.
Some players level slowly because they become busy with game development.

"Unregulated 2x events" don't happen everyday and somewhat break game routine a bit despite they aren't the solution to make a game more attractive. And when 2x is active it got announced via broadcast messages as it's something that takes effect on every player online.
When the "unregulated 2x event" shows up, who made it comes to play with us almost everytime.

Hocus Pocus Fidibus wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 15:41

This was just one example of many (quite a bit simplified here). There are several other examples that all influence each other in different ways (e.g. i did not even touch game economics etc.) and it is very very very complex (that is why testing is needed - as even the devs cannot foresee all consequences of a change - and as the test server will most likely never be used enough to get usable test results live testing on main server is sometimes unavoidable).

Test server is still usable to test items development and see how much it affects game. I do not recall developers asking some proficient players to test an item there before releasing on main server. Are bots useful in test server in order to collect data about mindless grinding effects?

Hocus Pocus Fidibus wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 15:41

But again, like with alternative ideas to the higher level cap a storm of complaints over different channels started without anybody listening to any "whys" and "hows".

Really? Nobody cares that much? Or their reactions aren't worth being noted?

Hocus Pocus Fidibus wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 15:41

It all gets harder because tmwa engine is very outdated, limiting and a code mess (and so far all efforts, some of them really great imho, to get away from that engine and introduce a new game that is better planned and balanced, better looking, more fun and much more easy to maintain) got shut down/failed for different reasons (vague collective hate is one of them).

Yeah, developing a quest for rEvolt was pretty cool. Overall game looks better and feels better like you said but still, it failed at eclipsing Legacy server and not for the ranged attack bug.
"Vague collective hate"? Or just disagreements? It's nothing you can avoid when you have to cooperate with different individuals.

Hocus Pocus Fidibus wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 15:41

[...] while staying sane and not get depressed.

Anyone who pukes at the first sip is not welcome in a high-alcoholic party.

Hocus, you proved to be a good graphics developer but, despite you got some points and I think some of your observations are right, you shouldn't complain about game balance when you don't actively play the game or taking care of game mechanics somewhat.
I personally believe that every developer is not inherently evil but quite some of them are rather detached from game reality and its player community. We had fun playing together but since you become a dev you stay idle all the time. :(

Hocus Pocus Fidibus wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 13:15

Funny, cause especially behind the curtains attacking and blaming everybody is almost all you do all the time.

I hardly see this statement as a positive contribution to the topic.
If you really want to publicly condemn someone, bring some evidences at least, rather than comments.

Hello=) wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 07:06

1.1) We wouldnt stand much more hits like this. Staffers and active players try to keep community together, their time and efforts spent on this worth of some respect, not any worse than dev time. Nobody comes to servers to feel like 2nd-class citizen. Can I honestly say sometimes it felt like that?

Hocus Pocus Fidibus wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 13:15

You were witnessed more than once in trying to bring up players against devs with false claims... i do not see how making devs second class citizens and portraying them as villains will help anything.

I logged in to play and someone said I got slower. Found game boring and gone idling until game edits got reverted and fun restored.
When a games changes badly and abruptly that manages to piss off almost anyone in the community, obviously players feel like being mistreated a bit. I'm pretty sure Hello=) wanted to state how awful it was and invite devs to take better considerations in order to avoid such events being repeated again.
And since when complaining about bad practices is "putting players against developers"?

Hello=) wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 07:06

1.4) If someone can't perform change reasonably, lack of time, overload, RL, etc: IMO they should reconsider, re-plan, re-schedule, delegate, cooperate, defer, whatever. If all fails, ok: you can't deliver feature in shape suitable for prod env. Put that into TODO list or scrap it, etc. Nobody comes to servers to enjoy breakage. Breaking things does damage. Please understand it.

Hocus Pocus Fidibus wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 13:15

Remember... we are not loan slaves, we are all volunteers. And your claim that all we do is breaking stuff is, to put it politely, ridiculous.

Hocus, did you notice how the unreleased "Mauve Plant Scroll" managed to hang ManaPlus client for more than five seconds (at least on my computer)? It's the first time I noticed something like that, even worse than "error" tiles.
From my "player" point of view I can say that update "broke" my client. Five seconds are enough to get nailed down during a fight only because I wanted to open the inventory.
Volunteering must not to get in the way of enjoying the game. Hello=) didn't claimed what you stated with your reply.

Hocus Pocus Fidibus wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 13:15

Again, nothing that is done by devs comes out of thin air.

I guess overall banshee bow and #upmarmu nerf wasn't tested nor discussed with players. From where it came out?

Hocus Pocus Fidibus wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 13:15

Bugs happen, bugs are taken care of as fast as possible.

Despite that I agree with Hello=) to review release guidelines. It doesn't hurt to spent some more time into preventing some bugs into affecting game by following known and established procedures. Surely it can be a double-edge issue as well as it may lag releases but hardly pisses off players.

WildX wrote: 15 Dec 2022, 02:31

Nothing much to add except +1 and if it was up to me this post would be pinned as must-read developer guidelines.

Is it possible to make developer guidelines out of a wiki page rather than a forum post that may drown in time like developer tool collection did? I think forum is good for discussing topics rather than producing quality documentation.

WildX wrote: 15 Dec 2022, 02:31

It's hard to find someone with a good grasp on "the big picture" of game development and the reality of making content for other people. Hocus put it into words perfectly.

By copy/pasting "Already commented on this several times. Others might comment on it, it is not my forte." he is not of so much help unless he decides to provide data on the issue by linking old topics in order to allow who is not aware of to follow up by reading old posts.
If we remove his considerations about Hello=) we surely get valuable infos to tune up game and community.

WildX wrote: 15 Dec 2022, 02:31

[...] the ultimate goal is to make things better for everyone and not just bored long-timers who need some extra grind.

I didn't get it. Can you tell us more about that, please?

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Re: Some thoughts about development and the "evil dev phenomenon"

Post by jesusalva »

I am forced to reply.

I logged in to play and someone said I got slower. Found game boring and gone idling until game edits got reverted and fun restored.
When a games changes badly and abruptly that manages to piss off almost anyone in the community, obviously players feel like being mistreated a bit. I'm pretty sure Hello=) wanted to state how awful it was and invite devs to take better considerations in order to avoid such events being repeated again.
And since when complaining about bad practices is "putting players against developers"?

Oh c'mon. Mistreating the dev after they fixed the bug, and hoping it doesn't say "we don't appreciate your work, begone"? That childish thought chain is why no one knows how many devs and project leads left due to this. Oh you need proof? Sure, Kage did expressly said that he left team because his work wasn't appreciated. He said this publicly while we chatted about Moubootaur Legends Capture the Flag implementation.

The mauve scroll bug is there for what, a whole month. Fixing it takes less than 10 minutes, as it is only Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V. I could have fixed it at least nine times in the time I am taking to write this.

So, why am I replying instead of fixing the bug?
Simple.
I have no reason to fix it.

C'mon, just think, why do you think every developer works here? It obviously is because they love TMW, so if TMW pretty much says they dislike their contributions, what do you think it'll happen?

I'm surprised people still expect devs to put their heart in the game when all they do is complain complain complain even after dev did their best to fix their mistakes.

I wanted to resign, but I supported WildX for almost three whole years, so it won't be Hello who will defeat me.
However, I am at the point that I could not care less with what he has to say.
All he ever says is how I am killing TMW, in private and in public, when I try to do my best to help TMW. And you expect me to take him in consideration? Seriously? Do you think anyone who do that would remain in the project?
Evidence suggests otherwise.

Hocus, did you notice how the unreleased "Mauve Plant Scroll" managed to hang ManaPlus client for more than five seconds (at least on my computer)? It's the first time I noticed something like that, even worse than "error" tiles.
From my "player" point of view I can say that update "broke" my client. Five seconds are enough to get nailed down during a fight only because I wanted to open the inventory.

You're right, this is a major bug, but every time I fix a bug in ML, even minor ones, I'm greeted by thankful players. Every time i fix a bug in TMW, I'm greeted by angry GMs screaming at me about other bugs.

So while the Mauve Scroll bug is a huge priority in your book, it is very low priority for me, because it ultimately just takes away my time which could be better spent elsewhere.

I think this should make sufficiently clear what you're accomplishing, regardless of whatever you claim to want. As for the other stuff:


Despite that I agree with Hello=) to review release guidelines. It doesn't hurt to spent some more time into preventing some bugs into affecting game by following known and established procedures. Surely it can be a double-edge issue as well as it may lag releases but hardly pisses off players.

It does hurt. There are other stuff trying to catch fire, security exploits MadCamel found, website sending us an ultimate that we have two weeks to move it or they'll delete our data, mail server doing the same, and of course, the mauve scroll bug itself which still wasn't fixed. Putting the car ahead the horse, eh?

I personally believe that every developer is not inherently evil but quite some of them are rather detached from game reality and its player community. We had fun playing together but since you become a dev you stay idle all the time. :(

No, he stopped playing and started idling when players started sending hate to him via private messages. More precisely, it became serious when players started doing it behind his back, speaking ill of him to others.

He doesn't like people speaking ill of him behind his back, so what do you think that would happen?
He still cares enough with TMW to idle and remain in DEV team, but you're seriously expecting too much. He has feelings too? Try to take these in consideration as well, instead of just your own? It's not like players were the only one who ever suffers.

I guess overall banshee bow and #upmarmu nerf wasn't tested nor discussed with players. From where it came out?

Specifically no. Broadly yes. Devs are always running around like headless ducks, watching players, chatting about random stuff, collecting thoughts, etc. Then we compile these thoughts in private forums, feel that banshee bow and upmarmu are becoming dominant styles (they make other classes be useless in comparison) and that they needed a nerf to be slightly more equalized.

Likewise, there are elected GMs who we sometimes comment about the changes we're about to do so we can get an overall view as they're elected. And yes, I did mention to Hello about the nerf I was going to do before doing it. He pretty much said "go ahead but be careful". So I went ahead, it did not play so well on first day so I tried a weaker nerf, and people kept complaining so I reverted it entirely.

But saying we never discussed with players altogether... Is outright a lie. So it is not weird that devs think there's an "evil dev phenomenon" when their efforts are ignored because they could be improved or are not as players would wish to be.
It is two different things to "do things in a way you don't like" and "not do things at all".

Is it possible to make developer guidelines out of a wiki page rather than a forum post that may drown in time like developer tool collection did? I think forum is good for discussing topics rather than producing quality documentation.

It is. But it would still need discussion and has a decent chance of simply being ignored like the coding convention was.

If you really want to publicly condemn someone, bring some evidences at least, rather than comments.

Oh he has lots of it. He just avoids posting it. Two reasons, really. It could contain sensitive data ,and he really is not out there to hunt Hello. He just wants to improve the game and Hello at most gets in the way (e.g. Hello got in the way when there was a discussion to rename Legacy to Classic by disrupting the conversation. He does this often).
Of course, annoy someone enough and they'll eventually get a vendetta against you. That's why MadCamel doesn't like SystemD for example. Yet you don't see MadCamel going out publishing chat logs about how bad his experience on SystemD was. Not even Freeyorp went out publishing chat logs about how bad Platyna was until he was pressured in doing so.

So if you want, go ahead, Hocus should have enough to keep you busy for days. But his goal is improving the game, not taking Hello down, so it is not his life goal to collect evidence to condemn someone.

And on this note, even I have stuff myself. Yet at most I indirectly condemn the behavior without pointing fingers. This is probably the closest to a hate post I ever wrote and lets keep it as the only one, alright? This is dev section... Not the proper place. Lets try to keep on topic and if needed we can move this discussion to Offtopic, alright?

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Re: Some thoughts about development and the "evil dev phenomenon"

Post by Livio »

jesusalva wrote: 15 Dec 2022, 14:32

Oh c'mon. Mistreating the dev after they fixed the bug, and hoping it doesn't say "we don't appreciate your work, begone"?

I'm not aware of what happens in dev team.

jesusalva wrote: 15 Dec 2022, 14:32

All he ever says is how I am killing TMW, in private and in public, when I try to do my best to help TMW. And you expect me to take him in consideration?

I don't recall to have said to take Hello=) in consideration whatever he says.
There's pretty a difference between agreeing with someone's idea and telling the others what to think.

jesusalva wrote: 15 Dec 2022, 14:32

Seriously? Do you think anyone who do that would remain in the project?
Evidence suggests otherwise.

Kick in and out whoever you want: you are the one in charge.

jesusalva wrote: 15 Dec 2022, 14:32

You're right, this is a major bug, but every time I fix a bug in ML, even minor ones, I'm greeted by thankful players. Every time i fix a bug in TMW, I'm greeted by angry GMs screaming at me about other bugs.

Please keep fixing bugs in TMW: community matters more than screaming GMs to me.

jesusalva wrote: 15 Dec 2022, 14:32

It does hurt. There are other stuff trying to catch fire, security exploits MadCamel found, website sending us an ultimate that we have two weeks to move it or they'll delete our data, mail server doing the same, and of course, the mauve scroll bug itself which still wasn't fixed. Putting the car ahead the horse, eh?

Wasn't possible to move developers into fixing those issues before releasing the Mauve Scroll?

jesusalva wrote: 15 Dec 2022, 14:32

No, he stopped playing and started idling when players started sending hate to him via private messages. More precisely, it became serious when players started doing it behind his back, speaking ill of him to others.

What?!? Are they still bothering him?

jesusalva wrote: 15 Dec 2022, 14:32

He doesn't like people speaking ill of him behind his back, so what do you think that would happen?

We had to breathe same air with unpleasant ones but we kept playing. It's not right that he have to stop because of rumors.

jesusalva wrote: 15 Dec 2022, 14:32

He still cares enough with TMW to idle and remain in DEV team, but you're seriously expecting too much. He has feelings too? Try to take these in consideration as well, instead of just your own? It's not like players were the only one who ever suffers.

I'm fine with almost everything Hocus did so far. But it bothers to see that time and space is took for talking about issues with people rather than game. What's going wrong and why it keeps going wrong is nothing you can explain with opinions and statements that resemble personal attacks.

jesusalva wrote: 15 Dec 2022, 14:32

Devs are always running around like headless ducks, watching players, chatting about random stuff, collecting thoughts, etc. Then we compile these thoughts in private forums, feel that banshee bow and upmarmu are becoming dominant styles (they make other classes be useless in comparison) and that they needed a nerf to be slightly more equalized.

The summit seemed to be useful in my opinion. I guess it can improve devs awareness. Developers like headless ducks?!?

jesusalva wrote: 15 Dec 2022, 14:32

Likewise, there are elected GMs who we sometimes comment about the changes we're about to do so we can get an overall view as they're elected. And yes, I did mention to Hello about the nerf I was going to do before doing it. He pretty much said "go ahead but be careful". So I went ahead, it did not play so well on first day so I tried a weaker nerf, and people kept complaining so I reverted it entirely.

I don't recall GMs playing as speed banshee archers (except kytty maybe). However, this incident should be considered solved by players.

jesusalva wrote: 15 Dec 2022, 14:32

But saying we never discussed with players altogether... Is outright a lie.

I must have missed it then. Usually I'm online every evening.

jesusalva wrote: 15 Dec 2022, 14:32

So it is not weird that devs think there's an "evil dev phenomenon" when their efforts are ignored because they could be improved or are not as players would wish to be.
It is two different things to "do things in a way you don't like" and "not do things at all".

As long these servers will be opened to the public you can expect anyone to get in. Efforts that turned to have unpleasant effect to the community hardly get ignored. But, yes, I somewhat sense that overall playerbase, in recent times, turned to be pretty ungrateful to the developers sometimes in many other communities as well.

jesusalva wrote: 15 Dec 2022, 14:32

It is. But it would still need discussion and has a decent chance of simply being ignored like the coding convention was.

I wasn't aware of the coding convention but a draft guideline should be better than no guidelines at all. I don't understand why a developer should refuse to follow it. Don't tell me that they are like headless duck again. :(

jesusalva wrote: 15 Dec 2022, 14:32

So if you want, go ahead, Hocus should have enough to keep you busy for days.

You know that I'm not in charge of rule enforcement here and for that I can't do nothing for him. What's the point of that?

jesusalva wrote: 15 Dec 2022, 14:32

But his goal is improving the game, not taking Hello down, so it is not his life goal to collect evidence to condemn someone.

Ignore Hello=) then. I just want to understand why two persons who should cooperate to improve the game are not getting along and causing disruptions. They are members of the guild and I considered both friends of mine and it bothers to see such disagreements going to degenerate.

jesusalva wrote: 15 Dec 2022, 14:32

And on this note, even I have stuff myself. Yet at most I indirectly condemn the behavior without pointing fingers. This is probably the closest to a hate post I ever wrote and lets keep it as the only one, alright? This is dev section... Not the proper place. Lets try to keep on topic and if needed we can move this discussion to Offtopic, alright?

In the first post Hocus brings many topics together as he regroups differents issues like game balance, community's misconceptions and something close to privilege abuse. More than a development topic it resembles a collection of opinions that can actually be the starting point of various single development topics.

I hope that this thread doesn't turns into a flamewar.

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Re: Some thoughts about development and the "evil dev phenomenon"

Post by WildX »

I will make a point that Jes alluded to already. How do you expect devs to play with players that are actively hostile towards them? I don't feel welcome in the game. I don't feel welcome in CRC. Rill hates me. Everyone who learned about me from Rill or Micksha or Hello hates me. Every time I log back into the game I feel like the unpopular child in school that no one wants to play with. One exception was when Hello helped me with the Alacrius quest, but in general over the last few years I have felt so unwelcome that I haven't even considered playing with groups. I think that if you want to argue that devs need to play more to have better interactions with the community, perhaps it would be easier for us if we didn't just get complaints by whisper and abuse on IRC. Of course, there's also people who are very nice but in general if you want us to play with you I suggest to be likeable.

There's also the obvious thing that of course the devs who think the game is broken, unbalanced and unfun are much less inclined to spend time playing. I hate some of the recent changes, but am I supposed to play as if it were my job? Or am I supposed to leave TMW as soon as I don't enjoy playing every day? This game still exists for your enjoyment thanks to people like Jes and even myself who stick around for the organisation more than the game. I can recall several instances where we could have easily SHUT DOWN this server in favour of new stuff. Many former devs wanted this. Guess who fought to keep it alive? Guess who promised to the player community after the merge that Legacy won't go offline as long as I'm around to have a say? If you have a game to play since 2016 you should thank me. If this game exists at all you should thank a whole list of other people, many of whom have been driven away by angry ungrateful players.

One question: Have you ever managed a project of this scale, age and complexity? Have you ever kept a game alive for two decades? Do you think this whole thing still exists because people like to kill mobs in the swamp? It's the nerds who are offline worrying about their YEARS LONG passion project that they really care about. I've consumed many hours of my life playing all sorts of MMORPGs, including a lot of time on TMW (don't let my main char's low level fool you, I had many many alts and played A LOT). Forgive me if I'm a bit tired of the game and would rather improve it than play it. Forvige Jes for not being as responsive as someone who earns money and makes a living off being a sysadmin. Forgive Hocus for looking at things from a wider perspective. Forgive us for not bending to the will of the newest members of the team and players who may or may not abandon the game in a few weeks or months. We know we will be around next month and next year and possibly much longer than any average player, we know we have a particular perspective because of this. That doesn't mean ignoring everyone else, but it's the reason why some people are expected to take decisions and others to just provide feedback.

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Re: Some thoughts about development and the "evil dev phenomenon"

Post by jesusalva »

Wasn't possible to move developers into fixing those issues before releasing the Mauve Scroll?

In this specific case no ─ TMWA raised no issues, Evol2 raised no issues (as it exists in Evolved), and there was a rather urgent major bug (if you remember, TMWA stayed offline for roughly three hours due to it) which hadn't many ways to be addressed in a satisfactory way.

As everything seemed to be running fine under the surface, I opted the path of least impact on the community would be sync'ing everything to master rather than trying to revert and deal with corrupted items (which is the same issue, really).

Well, production always surprise us ─ things not caught on test always are noticed in production. But instead of noticing there was a bug and we should fix it, it was preferred to make a tantrum, throw out accusations, blame me, etc. and it is not like TMW Classic was the only project I work on which needed bugfixes, so it just... kept being less and less and less rewarding for me to do anything to fix it, and by extension, less important as well.

Which reminds me, I woke up in good mood this afternoon and probably fixed it... Would like to deploy it but updates are still being served by Agnus Dei (the fallback VM), so I probably will wait a day or two before deciding it is urgent enough to justify the extra trouble of rewriting partly CI scripts for just one update. :-)

The proposed fix is here: https://git.themanaworld.org/legacy/cli ... adfeb99dd0 → In case you want to patch local/ folder fix. Remember to revert once the update is out, though.

Jesusalva (aka. Jesusaves)
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Former system administrator, project lead and developer.
Do not contact me regarding The Mana World inquiries.

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Ledmitz
TMW Classic
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Joined: 17 Aug 2011, 22:40
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Re: Some thoughts about development and the "evil dev phenomenon"

Post by Ledmitz »

I only post because I'm starting to feel toooo pragmatic. All people in the volunteer world experience frustration at some point and they either leave or work their butt off for free. I have people asking me always about why I spend so much time dedicated to making free stuff for a game or writing scripts I never get paid for. I will recap my history since TMW.
I started as a player, like many. I saw many things in the game that needed to be finished or made better somehow. As a player back then, it was all I could think of. My early posts were often suggestions about magic and things I could relate to from my older days as a Dungeons & Dragons player/DM. My posts did spark some work behind the scenes that I never knew about until I saw them become a reality, while the posts devs made often suggested that I learn to dev. I took that as an insult at the time, but now know just how serous those comments were. For years I did work on things for myself and then decided to share what I made with that nifty M+ feature to use a custom update host. Crush took time to reply to me about how to get up and running that was extremely helpful and I was happy because I viewed Crush as some sort of forum tyrant at the time. I can't believe its been this many years at all and when i look at how old some of my SFX/Music are to me and just recently added, I suppose I could be upset if I were to dwell, but at who? I can't put into words how grateful I was when I saw feedback on forums about my efforts and that Jes initiated it, I'm rambling too much now so just to conclude:

If I had never made suggestions, some things may have never changed.
If I had left game earlier, none of my efforts would have been added.
If I had never played TMW, I may not have migrated so smoothly to Linux and would not have learned any scripting.

As it turns out, TMW is responsible for me learning anything technical and it all started with playing a game to escape reality a little. I've used a lot of free software so this is just my way of trying to pay for it and we do need to emphasize this to players so that we can grow from a player base. You can't play and dev at the same time. when you start working on something, you want to finish it. Some only want to work on the game. Some only want to play. We need everyone for TMW to be anything and now we are reaching a larger audience than ever before. We need devs, regardless of where it takes us. If Crush could help a smartass like me to get started, then pretty sure we can round up more people, but it requires less talk and more action on everyone's part. We also need to remember HOW to talk. This ain't no corporate gig here. This is community driven. When community fails, the efforts do to.

BTW, the lag from missing frame index was actually my fault. Though I stated this many times, I have not received anger about it, yet others still talk like they blame each other. Please blame me and let's move on. I gotz a chin fo a reason

Ledmitz = Ardits = KillerBee = Mystic = Mystical_Servant = Tipsy Skeleton = BoomBoom = Cloak

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Livio
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Joined: 26 Feb 2019, 19:08

Re: Some thoughts about development and the "evil dev phenomenon"

Post by Livio »

Ledmitz wrote: 22 Dec 2022, 05:17

I only post because I'm starting to feel toooo pragmatic. All people in the volunteer world experience frustration at some point and they either leave or work their butt off for free. I have people asking me always about why I spend so much time dedicated to making free stuff for a game or writing scripts I never get paid for.

Hi Led! :D
I believe giving up for a while may help just to start again as soon you feel a bit more "refreshed".
I mean, making source code to work is more frustrating than playing a quest. Too much of both is bad.
When it's time for event or lots of friends online just give up development. There are lots of chances that none is around to play with you, and when it happens let's start development again!
I'm used to note down direction sent to me via IRC for later moments in order not to disrupt the fun or getting lost in chat history.

The less you play with TMW Classic, the more spam of mine you lose. lol

Ledmitz wrote: 22 Dec 2022, 05:17

I will recap my history since TMW.
I started as a player, like many. I saw many things in the game that needed to be finished or made better somehow. As a player back then, it was all I could think of. My early posts were often suggestions about magic and things I could relate to from my older days as a Dungeons & Dragons player/DM. My posts did spark some work behind the scenes that I never knew about until I saw them become a reality, while the posts devs made often suggested that I learn to dev. I took that as an insult at the time, but now know just how serous those comments were.

And here is where real magic begins: you start to be part of the game you play. It's sad it turned into a frustrating experience for someone.

Ledmitz wrote: 22 Dec 2022, 05:17

For years I did work on things for myself and then decided to share what I made with that nifty M+ feature to use a custom update host. Crush took time to reply to me about how to get up and running that was extremely helpful and I was happy because I viewed Crush as some sort of forum tyrant at the time.

Sadly that feature breaks custom host updates as TMWT releases new content. I had some vague idea of making custom host updates a "self patching" update out of official TMW releases in order not to leave players with "error shirts" and "unknown items". I only managed to split archives for reduced network usage in that demo of mine. And it got stuck like that for some years...

Ledmitz wrote: 22 Dec 2022, 05:17

I can't believe its been this many years at all and when i look at how old some of my SFX/Music are to me and just recently added, I suppose I could be upset if I were to dwell, but at who? I can't put into words how grateful I was when I saw feedback on forums about my efforts and that Jes initiated it, I'm rambling too much now so just to conclude:

If I had never made suggestions, some things may have never changed.
If I had left game earlier, none of my efforts would have been added.
If I had never played TMW, I may not have migrated so smoothly to Linux and would not have learned any scripting.

As it turns out, TMW is responsible for me learning anything technical and it all started with playing a game to escape reality a little. I've used a lot of free software so this is just my way of trying to pay for it and we do need to emphasize this to players so that we can grow from a player base.

Yeah! We could have participated together at the Libregaming.org conference together with someone else of TMWT. I didn't manage to accomplish that much alone since I'm relatively new to TMW and what's behind of it. By sharing common interests of other free software projects surely we can grow together as communities.

Ledmitz wrote: 22 Dec 2022, 05:17

You can't play and dev at the same time. when you start working on something, you want to finish it.

You have to take into account that you may not be able to finish it because you may lack skills, help from the others or you may have not followed procedures to have it released. It feels bad that makes you want to give up sometimes. So I gave up doing quests for rEvolt's Tulimshar and finished only the Hurnscald one when I realized I couldn't understand server errors despite code wasn't so different. Surely keeping two instances of Manaplus that keeps beeping for incoming messages it bothers when you try to focus on what doesn't work (I learned later about the "disable highlight" function).

Ledmitz wrote: 22 Dec 2022, 05:17

Some only want to work on the game. Some only want to play. We need everyone for TMW to be anything and now we are reaching a larger audience than ever before. We need devs, regardless of where it takes us. If Crush could help a smartass like me to get started, then pretty sure we can round up more people, but it requires less talk and more action on everyone's part.

I believe that scarcity of documentation and tutorials are somewhat rendering development harsh for non-technical people.
We can just skip this part when skilled people joins but makes selection more difficult.

Ledmitz wrote: 22 Dec 2022, 05:17

We also need to remember HOW to talk.

How to talk? It feel like complaining how rude is internet to me. :(

Ledmitz wrote: 22 Dec 2022, 05:17

This ain't no corporate gig here. This is community driven. When community fails, the efforts do to.
BTW, the lag from missing frame index was actually my fault. Though I stated this many times, I have not received anger about it, yet others still talk like they blame each other. Please blame me and let's move on. I gotz a chin fo a reason

What's the point of blaming you? You can't be directly responsible for the release of an unusable item.
Even if you managed to make it work it's a useless thing sitting there, less worthy than the tomato (that didn't managed to be useful or harmful). Meaningful from development point of view, meaningless from player's point of view...

Your chin is nothing useful for development in my humble opinion and I don't like developers waste time with anything that has nothing to do with development.
I let the rule enforcement guys to take care of offenders. (Yes, if you change your mind I'll vote you for GM) :P

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