What needs to change?

[Dimond]

Hello.

A lot of players have gotten involved in the forum "Dyna, Dimond and (~_~#) got banned"
This is truly a flame war. One person saying this, the other saying your wrong, going on and on like a figure eight.
Well we can't agree on everything and make everyone happy sadly.
A little after the "revolution" I got all excited again and dropped items too in town. Though nobody seemed to notice in the uproar, so I thought I might as well put that in.

The player named "TheDarkFinder" I think was trying to help break up this flame war. If I'm wrong please correct me TheDarkFinder.
I didn't like being called a "5 year old", but after I thought about it you were sorta right about that. In my opinion I think other players could take a few deep breaths and calm down if they were called a 5 year old instead of flaming at TheDarkFinder. Oh, and if I didn't read the forum carefully and a GM flamed at TheDarkFinder about being called a 3 year old please do not post something like "but the GM flamed at him! It's not my fault!".

TheDarkFinder pointed out to me about what it was that needed to change. I haven't really thought about that. It was at the point where everyone was all riled up and never really stopped and thought "wait a minute... what is it that needs to change?". All I saw on the forums was countless posts from both players and GMs that were basically saying "Your wrong, I'm right. So your the one who should just accept that.". I can't say I'm innocent since I did participate in this. I'm glad TheDarkFinder pointed that out to me. So my thanks goes to him.

Now stop and think about what you think needs to change before you post. You can even PM me or email me. (dimondd.stone@gmail.com)
There will be NO flaming on this forum, meaning something like this:

Player: "Del THREATENED me! What kind of GM is that? I think we need less GMs because of that."
GM: "Yes your right, but I was doing that because you were causing lag for others, therefore you must be banned."
Player: "You are a disgrace of the GM cap! We were doing nothing but sitting and chatting."
ect...

There will be none of that okay? If you are going to post your "What needs to change?" comment or complaint please do it something like this:

Player: "My complaint is that I was banned, but I'm not quite sure what I did wrong."
GM: "You were causing lag."
Player: "But I was sitting and chatting, though I also egged other players and called names... Is that the reason I was banned?
GM: "Hmmm.."
Player: "If that is so then my complain is that I'm not sure why I was banned by a GM and demand to know why. Does egging and calling names is player abuse? Or was I banned because I angered the GMs? I'm confused and so I would like some explanation."
ect...

These are just examples and would like for players and GMs to keep in mind "Is there something that really needs to change?". Because it could be confusion and that you would like an explanation is all.

Lag
I also agree on TheDarkFinder on this. Asking everyone if they were having lag isn't the best way. Players who have just come into the area may have lag, and it might not only affect that map but other maps too. (correct me if I'm wrong) Though we are allowed to do it out of town. The woodland village is not the only place. They are many other towns and other map.
Though I'm sorta confused about if just sitting down and dropping items in the woodland village is banned too? Without moving, just sitting or standing when dropping items.
Well not everyone can agree to what I just said. Can you post in a calm manor of why you did not agree? Please do so and thanks. =)

1.) Post comment, complaint, or what rule you think needs to change and why.

2.) A poll will be formed about whether or not you think that a rule should stay. Just to see what the players think of it.

3.) No flaming please.

Thank you for reading this very very very long thread, but I hope it can help.

-Dimond

[Matt]

ANARCHY AGAINST THE GMS!!!!!

edit: seems you changed your signature after you posted this ^^

[Dimond]

Oh nevermind. I just posted that to see if anything interesting would happen.
Sadly nothing. So I guess I'll just sit and watch the flame war.

[Amun]

Nothing personal Dimond I actually found you to be rather interesting and funny during "story time" in the mine ..... but this reminds me of wombats thread and makes me want to puke or atleast vomit a lil' in my mouth and swallow it. Don't start trying to play the goodie goodie now it doesn't suit you.

[Crush]

but this reminds me of wombats thread and makes me want to puke or atleast vomit a lil' in my mouth and swallow it. Don't start trying to play the goodie goodie now it doesn't suit you.

This reads to me like "Please stop mediating, I want this flamewar to go on."

I consider Dimonds attempt at trying to soften the hardened fronts between game masters and a the players who oppose them the first constructive move so far to find a solution for this conflict.

[thedarkfinder]

I know I am the last person to comment on this, but I think I have to.

There is something inherently wrong here. It is something a lot deep and more part of the system.

1.) Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The GM's have unchecked power.
2.) Power to change has be reduced down to a selected few (higher community).
3.) Personal relationships have made any internal conflict reflect-able to the lower community.
4.) The lower community feels left out of the higher community.
5.) The high community feels the need to preserve the high community at all cost. This has become their game, their server, and their community. All others are just disrupting their game.
6.) The lower community feels the need to revolt, protest, and rebel against the higher community. This happens for many reasons.
1.)higher community does not listen to the needs of the lower community.
2.) higher community does not change to met the needs of the lower community.
3.) Nothing the lower community can do to change that.


Bottom line, the powers that be make a system in which they have absolute power. There is no system to balance this, nor do the higher community want any balancing system.

The higher community feels that it is its job to enforce it rules as it sees fit. The lower community acts out and the higher community freaks out. Leading to a revolt.

This whole thing can be summed up as follows.

It is becoming very clear that the current system behaves like a monarchy. But we are not allowed even to police ourselves. We get no trial by jury. No rights what so ever. We are only here to serve the powers that be. At their leisure. I wonder why people are revolting. It is encoded in most cultures to over throw. The Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek, Roman, French, German, English, and American have all be here as a community. Have all done this before.


There is only two choices. First, live as second class citizens in which your behavior will be punished at random by people that "feel like it."

Or you revolt.

We all know how that is going to end.

[Wombat]

I like what you said in this post thedarkfinder and I appreciate the tone in which it is presented. Thoughts to consider and I thank you.

[peavey]

3.) Nothing the lower community can do to change that.

http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/ ... he_project

[Jaxad0127]

But we are not allowed even to police ourselves. We get no trial by jury. No rights what so ever.

That is hard to do since we can't ensure individuals aren't gaming it to get more voices. Once person -> one voice is doable int eh real world, where you can do things like having the person do it in person. Online, it's basically impossible.

[Vink]

The GM's have unchecked power.

False. GM powers are limited and the commands used are logged for all to check.

[Crush]

Or you revolt.

How exactly is this "revolution" you suggest going to look and in what way will it change anything?

[The Brao]

It's time to write the rules book, IMO.
I mean, a locked article in the wiki or a thread in the "court house" where the community member can find :
- All rules, explained, detailed, on what is tolerated and what is not. Else you will always have issues with players who misunderstood, circumvented or drifted rules.
- Your global policy on global problems : abuses, lag, scammers, hackers, etc...
- The sanctions (type, duration) associated to each rule, to avoid GMs power abuses.
It would also be great if this "book" could be written with the help of the whole community, an occasion for players to get involved in this awsome project. Maybe creating polls?

[thedarkfinder]

To vink.
I think the last few threads of player talk reveals that not true. The gm's answer to dev. Which do not do anything as long as they are left alone.

to jax,
you are right, there is nothing you can do. Well besides making sure that the people you make gm's do not ban people who are "just setting around" or get pulled into a mud racking contest. This server can not be a democracy, period. Footnote 1

But you also have to understand that people will revolt against it, if they perceive it as being one. GM's did very stupid things. And now the dev are going to ignore it.

To peavey,

So what you are saying is that I can become part of the team and then be able to talk to the gm's about their behaviour? Or better yet help rewrite the laws? You know that will not happen. It can not happen. The gm's are in place by people that are a closed party. If you want something to change, you have to get permission from this party. At not point can not change the game without permission, and if you do, the party will boot you out.

Do a search about Platyna and you will understand why that does not work.


To crush

You are seeing the revolt, people pushing gm's, 8-9 threads about how the system sucks. It really does not mean anything to you or the game. In the end, you do not need anything from these players. Your acts reveal as much.

There is not going to be a great up rising. Maybe some small problems, ddos or intentional server crashes. Nothing new.

I would expect a mass exodus though. The bible says it best "When being treated badly, leave Egypt."

1 There could be a panel or board which is elected by the devs. Devs could be selected by other devs for contributing to the cause. Art work, testing, story lines, and other stuff.

The panel would have the final say in things like mods, GM's, roadmaps of development.

Elections could happen 1 2 or 4 times a year.

This is how normal how a NON PROFITS normally work.

[Jaxad0127]

This is how normal how a NON PROFITS normally work.

They still have checks to make sure individuals are doing it. Like getting government documents assuring them the person exists. Still more than we can (or should) do.

This is the Internet. Individuals can be faked.

[thedarkfinder]

This is the Internet. Individuals can be faked.

I have no question that you exist. If I submitted 1,000's individual maps, stories, programing hours and ideas, as you have, to the mana site. I am guessing that you would have no question that I exist.

I am not talking about having everyone that heard of the mana world to vote. I am saying that after giving time and energy to the mana world and having the development team say that she/he is a worthy of the mana world developer label.

That person is real. And as a real person should get to vote for the panel/board. This way we can stay on the correct path even if the people get off it.