Rotonen's Christmas 2009 thought game

[Jaxad0127]

Step #2 Stop using the gamers as your scape goats. You can blame the slow development of the project all you want on the gaming community but maybe first you should read the memo, "Mana Source...."

The Mana project is just about the platform, not about TMW. Content development for TMW has been slowed because we have to deal with community issues.

Step #3 Start having REAL open dialogues with the community instead of simply issuing threats and warnings which in return, only causes more drama. It is time to get past egos and realise if you want a happy pleasant community the whole "Master / slave" relationship between the staff and general community needs to go.

What "master / slave" relationship?

[Crush]

A "Slave" is someone who works free of charge for the benefit of someone else.

Who fits this description more - the players or the developers?

[theauroraproject]

The Mana project is just about the platform, not about TMW. Content development for TMW has been slowed because we have to deal with community issues.

Issues that are caused by you rearranging the chairs of the titanic. Issues that come up because you can not deal with them as adults, you have to run experiments and force rules on people.

A "Slave" is someone who works free of charge for the benefit of someone else.
Who fits this description more - the players or the developers?

Actually, both. The devs are working hard, no question, but they also get to make and set the rules. They get to change the rules. A slave can not change his rules.


But crush, let me ask you this, where would this project be with out players. If no one logged on. If no one played. What then? Would it be worth it for you. To make a game on you own, in your room, by yourself. The players are testers. They test the game. The help iron out the problems that can not be seen by the dev. But the players can not set rules, the players can not change rules. The players are trapped into following the rules of the devs.

Which is fine, but crush, I think it was the player here that said, "either change you how you treat the people, or expect a revolution to come." Crush, jax just admitted that dealing with social issues is slowing progress? I seen many people warn you of this. It can be avoided. d

All you have to do is let us help you.

Let us help you...

We are in this together. We are not here to destroy your project. We are here to help, but first you have to admit that we are equals. That there is not one group more important then the other. There is not one person more important then the others.

The road out of this, is simple. We need to sit down, talk it out, and find a solution that takes on the problems. And Amuk is right, you first need to fix your own dev problems, before you take on anything else.

[Kage]

The Mana project is just about the platform, not about TMW. Content development for TMW has been slowed because we have to deal with community issues.

Issues that are caused by you rearranging the chairs of the titanic. Issues that come up because you can not deal with them as adults, you have to run experiments and force rules on people.

A "Slave" is someone who works free of charge for the benefit of someone else.
Who fits this description more - the players or the developers?

Actually, both. The devs are working hard, no question, but they also get to make and set the rules. They get to change the rules. A slave can not change his rules.


But crush, let me ask you this, where would this project be with out players. If no one logged on. If no one played. What then? Would it be worth it for you. To make a game on you own, in your room, by yourself. The players are testers. They test the game. The help iron out the problems that can not be seen by the dev. But the players can not set rules, the players can not change rules. The players are trapped into following the rules of the devs.

Which is fine, but crush, I think it was the player here that said, "either change you how you treat the people, or expect a revolution to come." Crush, jax just admitted that dealing with social issues is slowing progress? I seen many people warn you of this. It can be avoided. d

All you have to do is let us help you.

Let us help you...

We are in this together. We are not here to destroy your project. We are here to help, but first you have to admit that we are equals. That there is not one group more important then the other. There is not one person more important then the others.

The road out of this, is simple. We need to sit down, talk it out, and find a solution that takes on the problems. And Amuk is right, you first need to fix your own dev problems, before you take on anything else.

You are somewhat wrong, while developers (including me) has help influence rules in the past, that is all pretty much over. Developers seem to have much less influence on the rules as you seem to think. In truth the Admins have more power of this issue. Amuk seems to be combining developers with the administration, this is not true. While developers do try to work with admins, Playtna does not want to work back it seems. Bjorn has pretty much left this project completely for ManaSource (as have many other developers).

Playtna's argument seems to be that she runs the server, the hardware, the community. All rule falls into her. And that if you do not enjoy this, there are many other Mana based games your free to join.

I disagree with Playtna's dictatorship approach. But again I and other developers have no more power over this then normal players. So please stop insulting us by saying we are not working with the community.

[theauroraproject]

Kage, I know what is going on.

I am aware of the issue involved.

But you also understand that if the mana source follows the same path as the mana world. We will be right back here in a few months.


I tried to show the difference between the people that make the rules and the people that just work here. But you also understand that a dev has alot more power then the avg player.

[Crush]

theauroraproject, you are directing your critique to the wrong target.

When we ever set up an official ManaServer on Manasource.org which is intended for serious gameplay we can talk this out, but currently this is not even on our ToDo list. Currently we developers see ourself as platform providers and leave the server hosting, administration and management of the player base (and thus rulemaking) to server administrators like Seeseekey or Platyna. We neither can nor want to tell them how to use our software.

[Kage]

But you also understand that if the mana source follows the same path as the mana world. We will be right back here in a few months.

Actually mana source will not fall into this fate, because we are not even running a game at this point, just a test server.

I tried to show the difference between the people that make the rules and the people that just work here. But you also understand that a dev has alot more power then the avg player.

What power do I have that you don't? Git access (doesn't effect rules or the community). A few At commands in game? (doesn't effect rules or the community). Developer "status" on the forums and other pages? (doesn't effect rules or the community).

In short, I have no more power over these issues then a normal user. Only thing I might have is respect from the community, which anyone can obtain with enough effort.

Do I ban players? No
Do I make rules? No
Do I enforce rules? No
Do I pick GMs? No

I do give my input on items, which is the only thing I can do. And knowing Playtna all my input is probably ignored anyways.

I read the forums everyday. I look at content people are creating and try to help them along. I write for the the Mana project, and I even do scripting for quests and other such thing.

So maybe instead of saying developers are not listening to the community... I ask you what are we doing that you don't want us to do, or what are we not doing that you would like us to do?

[Kage]

And just to clarify a few things. No developer has the power of authority to shut down the server like how Rotonen is talking about. And as far as the PvP thing goes, while I support this option, I don't have the power to change it without the going though other developers and Platyna first.

[Crush]

We could "accidently" break some gm commands and prevent the GMs from enforcing rules we don't like

[Amuk]

Sorry Devs for aiming hostility your way. I do realise you face a lot of the same obstacles as the gaming community does and now that you were given the chance to openly defend your position and admit you are basically in the same boat we are this will hopefully close a long existing gap between us. "Us" meaning the gaming community.

Saying that you should understand a lot of our frustrations and instead of trying to keep the illusion of a prior time like the initial post, we can start working together and have some meaningful discussions on what we can do to improve things.

[Kage]

Sorry Devs for aiming hostility your way. I do realise you face a lot of the same obstacles as the gaming community does and now that you were given the chance to openly defend your position and admit you are basically in the same boat we are this will hopefully close a long existing gap between us. "Us" meaning the gaming community.

Saying that you should understand a lot of our frustrations and instead of trying to keep the illusion of a prior time like the initial post, we can start working together and have some meaningful discussions on what we can do to improve things.

The thing that the gaming community can do that will really start you on the path to your freedom is take power out of the hands of the admins. Right now Playtna controls the server, the forums, the IRC channel, and just about ever other form of communication you have.

What you can do, is at lest remove forums and IRC channel power from her by using the stuff setup by manacentral or another host.

A community controlled server is a bit harder to resolve. But power changes hands slowly.

Developers have pretty much already done this by creating Mana Source.

[The Scarlet Rhus]

Seriously, PvP is the best option. It doesn't matter if you die anyway, does it?

[Amuk]

The thing that the gaming community can do that will really start you on the path to your freedom is take power out of the hands of the admins. Right now Playtna controls the server, the forums, the IRC channel, and just about ever other form of communication you have.

What you can do, is at lest remove forums and IRC channel power from her by using the stuff setup by manacentral or another host.

A community controlled server is a bit harder to resolve. But power changes hands slowly.

Developers have pretty much already done this by creating Mana Source.

This sounds like a good plan. It will ofcourse take a lot of hard work to make something like this happen. The gaming community needs to first organise itself. Getting enough people on board where we can discuss matters and speak as a whole so what we say will be heard and beable to influence our own fate

If enough people come together we could make some great things happen. It's just the matter of the whole "come together" part.

[The Scarlet Rhus]

I'll make some new forums. There will be no admins (obviously I'll have the power, but I won't use it). There will be no mods. Spammers will not be banned. You can do whatever you want - but other people will put you on ignore if you're dumb, won't they?

[Amuk]

I'll make some new forums. There will be no admins (obviously I'll have the power, but I won't use it). There will be no mods. Spammers will not be banned. You can do whatever you want - but other people will put you on ignore if you're dumb, won't they?

You fail to understand what is trying to be achieved here.