The Mana World Forums

Leela wrote:Also I agree with DarkWater on the transparency.
People who could donate want to know what's happening. And looking in the forum is not an option because in the forum it is confusing and you have to search for everything.

The main communication medium of the development team is and has always been IRC. So when you really want to know what's going on you should idle in the development IRC channels. Don't worry, we don't kick anyone out who wants to participate or just listen.

Crush: It is not about me but about people in general.
Not everybody has IRC, not everybody has the time to idle in IRC even afk an read the stuff from the last hours.
Don't tell me, it is too much, to write a little list what you did lately and what the next few aims are.
I mean it is not me who wants to get money out of the project.
If you guys want money - make your work transparent enough for everyone.

Leela

Rotonen wrote:A common way is to put together a foundation to hold the intellectual property (mostly: logo, name) of your project. If you do it correctly, you can receive donations tax free (and in some tax systems the donations companies make for you are tax deductible). Then the aforementioned foundation can give money to whatever their rules allow (mostly: development of the said project). They can even legally hire people.

Apart from that it'd be nice to see manasource register for the next Google Summer of Code. Unfortunately they do not accept pixel art as a worthy subject for that.

Collecting 30k+ (USD/EUR) and hiring one professional pixel artist for a year would indeed be a tempting idea given the capital. Also for pixel art aspirants giving 1k-2k (USD/EUR) per major assignment (set of spritesets, tileset) would boost contribution.

Daydreaming is fun, isn't it?

To answer the actual topic line of this conversation: in open source you make money on services, not content or products.

30k+ donations... haha, you made my day

Leela wrote:Crush: It is not about me but about people in general.
Not everybody has IRC, not everybody has the time to idle in IRC even afk an read the stuff from the last hours.
Don't tell me, it is too much, to write a little list what you did lately and what the next few aims are.
I mean it is not me who wants to get money out of the project.
If you guys want money - make your work transparent enough for everyone.

Leela

Oh come on, there are countless free IRC clients available. Most multi-protocol instant messengers also have IRC support.

All the information you want is already freely available. We can lead you to water but you have to drink on your own.

When the community feels like the information is not accessible enough for everyone then maybe someone (you?) from the community could take on the duty to compile all the information sources (git commit logs, bugtracker activity, development forums, IRC discussions) into regular reports written in a language for non-tech-savy people. I was doing this for a while for Manaserv development (still TMWServ back then) but I had to stop because I started working full time and decided that I can spend my time in more useful ways.

Will send the pm's when I can, the pm system is broken right now.

I think you see the things too complicated, the key here is freedom, TMW code, graphics, scripts, all on it is free and you are free to have it, free to create your own client, server, scripts, etc. So you can have the power of manage a server (some players have their own server, you only have to pay for the server allocation or a dedicated internet connection, well yes that requires money but that's how it works) , create or modify the client even create a whole new world for your own ( Like Whispers of Avalon or Hero of Allacrost), every community needs a server admin, a leader, a project manager and in TMW we have people that has been working for TMW for years contributing with time, brain even money (I don't have any power quota here please don't get confuse).

So my best advise here is if you want to contribute to the game you have several options,

1. Graphics development (a lot of people is needed, no experience necessary, really we can help you learn)
2. Mappers (several positions are open)
3. Code Developers (I'm pretty sure if you are a skilled programmer you can help in many ways)
4. Scripters (quests and other matters)

Believe me if you help on those areas and we have a big community developing, the game won't need any money, in fact this game has survived with no much money contribution for years, but with effort, developers, contributors, etc.

So if you want to help think on the list above first, not in money.

Crush wrote: Oh come on, there are countless free IRC clients available. Most multi-protocol instant messengers also have IRC support.

All the information you want is already freely available. We can lead you to water but you have to drink on your own.

When the community feels like the information is not accessible enough for everyone then maybe someone (you?) from the community could take on the duty to compile all the information sources (git commit logs, bugtracker activity, development forums, IRC discussions) into regular reports written in a language for non-tech-savy people. I was doing this for a while for Manaserv development (still TMWServ back then) but I had to stop because I started working full time and decided that I can spend my time in more useful ways.

I did not talk about how available IRC clients are. I said not everyone has one (i do btw). And not everyone has the time to read there or idle and read what has been spoken of.

Yes the information is available, but it is here and there and everywhere and at the same time nowhere. You have to know where to look or spend a long time to find out where to dig.

And you think if someone (whoever) starts finding all informations, writing nice articles, that they will seriously appear on a page that is easy to find? I mean a place other then the forum. Because also many people never visit the forum. As I said something, that is not complicated to find. e.g. newssection on the mainpage.
Also I would gladly try finding out as much as possible and make a meeting for interested people ingame. no problem for me so far, just need someone who will announce it ingame... (problem: rarely someone online who can announce stuff)

i think if people had to pay money for this game alot of people would end up quiting, it would cause huge chaos and fights would be going on for a long time, i think its a bad idea.

saxon wrote:i think if people had to pay money for this game alot of people would end up quiting, it would cause huge chaos and fights would be going on for a long time, i think its a bad idea.

Ok, lets fix this right now.

No one is going to have to pay for anything in themanaworld to play the game.
Period. No one. Ok?

What they, the powers that be, are talking about is making money off the open source development.

What I, the aurora society, am trying to explain to them is simply people want to give money. All you have to do is be willing to stop the bickering, backstabbing, closed minded crap we currently get out of the group holding power.

If they want to have money for a open source project, then the project needs to become open minded. That is currently not possible. All the current group holding power wants is power and to run things their way.

They want to keep their little cliqs and keep development, communication, and ideas closed minded, closed source, and as secret as possible.

To make money off donations you need to be as open, honest, clear, and friendly has possible.

It is currently impossible for this group to be honest, clear, friendly, and open. You may get one of those at a time but you will never get all of them, which is required to make money.

So what is the bottom line.

In order to make any kind of money off this game (hell for this game to be around this time next year), you need to start being honest, clear, open, and friendly. Sorry just do not see that happening. Not with this group.

DarkWater wrote:What I, the aurora society, am trying to explain to them is simply people want to give money. All you have to do is be willing to stop the bickering, backstabbing, closed minded crap we currently get out of the group holding power.

If they want to have money for a open source project, then the project needs to become open minded. That is currently not possible. All the current group holding power wants is power and to run things their way.

Citation needed.

DarkWater wrote:They want to keep their little cliqs and keep development, communication, and ideas closed minded, closed source, and as secret as possible.

Citation needed.

DarkWater wrote:It is currently impossible for this group to be honest, clear, friendly, and open. You may get one of those at a time but you will never get all of them, which is required to make money.

Citation needed.

DarkWater wrote:In order to make any kind of money off this game (hell for this game to be around this time next year), you need to start being honest, clear, open, and friendly. Sorry just do not see that happening. Not with this group.

What would you like to see changed?

jaxad0127 wrote: Citation needed.

I really could spend hours getting dozens of post. But I will show you examples.

http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... cer#p83623

no final objections were bought to light, so i've unbanned the char as per the forum discussion.

That discussion was hidden from the community and the people that slicer attacked. That discussion was back-roomed and back door, with two super secret knocks to get in. The choice to unban him as opposed to making him start over like any other character was closed minded, closed sourced, and so secret that members of your development team could not see what was going on.

How is this open minded? Did you say, he made a mistake but he still has to follows the rules?

How is this open sourced? You did not even allow any person that was wrong by slicer to even have a word about it.

How is this not secret? When your own developers have no idea what you are doing?

But that was favoritism. That is different.

I will show you what you are.

http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... =12&t=8775

borg queen wrote:TMW is not democracy, it is absolute monarchy. There is a King, a Queen and a Group Holding the Power (GHP), their decisions are law.

When someone reads that, the first thing that goes through their mind is, "control issues?"

The second thing is that there will be no change. The the group holding power, want only power.

The last thing a monarchy is, is open minded, open sourced (using this term to say that you will not allow everyone to contribute), and not secret.

The principles that run a monarchy is closed and single minded goals, enforced by a limited number of barons and landholders, to be as secert as possible to increase confusion and disharmony among the people.

I have give you two source, one of them from your own mouth.

But I am talking to myself again. Once again jax instead of saying we have made mistakes in the past, you make us run around proving what you know is true. Why do you do that? Because the goal is to keep any conversation about the group holding power as muddy and distorted as possible.

In 3 post by the group holding power, have proven that the group is anything from honest, clear, friendly, and open.

It was zyperz that summed up platyna and the group holding power for me.

zyperz wrote:Wouldnt matter, she changes her mind and methods as often as you and I exchange the oxygen in our lungs.......so.....

Jax, history has always shown that actions speak louder then words.

DarkWater wrote:...snipped for brevity...

Most of what you said is about a single person in GHP. Come onto IRC and we can discuss that person more freely.

jaxad0127 wrote:

DarkWater wrote:...snipped for brevity...

Most of what you said is about a single person in GHP. Come onto IRC and we can discuss that person more freely.

No there was alot about you in there.

IRC is not open, clear, honest, channel. What is said there, can not be used to support your cause. It can not be made to get donations.

It is just another backroom deal.

DarkWater wrote:

jaxad0127 wrote:

DarkWater wrote:...snipped for brevity...

Most of what you said is about a single person in GHP. Come onto IRC and we can discuss that person more freely.

No there was alot about you in there.

IRC is not open, clear, honest, channel. What is said there, can not be used to support your cause. It can not be made to get donations.

It is just another backroom deal.

You want open? Here: Platyna. Most of GHP would rather run TMW without her. If she bans me for this, so much the better. I'll just leave and work on another project.

No there was alot about you in there.

IRC is not open, clear, honest, channel. What is said there, can not be used to support your cause. It can not be made to get donations.

It is just another backroom deal.

you are starting to talk nonsense, all irc channels used for management are open for everyone, how do you expect a communication medium to be clear or honest? And how exactly do you get donations from posting here?