The Mana World Forums

Based on some private conversations, I think this situation has been resolved.
Nothing happened that time, and a little PVP and some beers can't sort out.

Hi,

I really support Troll, he is a nice player.
Its not like i dont support the Gm.

But before starting i just wanted to say, the quote is to show something its not a call needing an answer.
So its not against a particulary person i speak but in general.
So dont take it for you. You are not under attack. =D


We have new spells called dark magic and IN THE GAME, waric gives this advice to the ppl who follow the dark path : bring disaster in the world (its not the exact words but in the meaning you can find the essence)

Why Troll cant do what he had done?

One day, in the terranite cave, in pvp, there is one player who just following me and kill me everytime. I had report this to the gm, and gm said, we cant do nothing coz its the game.
Its was an harrassment for me but nothing was done.
And now we have Brodomir cave.

Several times, some players take mobs like fallen or jack o in the grave yard and bring them on ppl.
Sometimes its to help ppl to exp, sometimes its not the case.
So what?
its harassment or not?

Several times, some players came and kill the mobs that i was killing.
its harassment or not?

And all the game is like this.
I didnt like this time(when i was noob) coz i couldnt do what i wanted, following my way of playing.
Now im more patient with player like this. Those who disturb my way of playing coz i understand now, they have their own way of playing.
And it must be frustrating, like what happened to Troll, to be ban when you are just playing the game. Of course for the other side its not the same song so...

Be patient and listen.
Not just take the other side for ugly and wicked players.
Talk, understand the other, finally find a way.

I had a great discussion about this topic today, and i well understand the people who are sit in town to just chating with their ppl.
I respect this.
But they are also in a game, they must understand this.
The both side comes in the mana world to have fun and to be relax.
If the Troll's way to be relax is to kill ppl in town, why you are against?
You are dead coz you didnt move? And?
What is the difference between you alive or you dead in the game when you was just sit?
No difference coz you just chating.
Why you have ban Troll for this?

He kill newbies?
And newbies find the gm and make a report against Troll?
LOL
They are not newbies.
When i start the game, i didnt knew how it works.
And i ask, sometimes and several times, and some good players crying over me to stop spamming.
I thought, hey men, i just ask and nobody give me an answer, so i repeat i dont spam.
Or i have asked something in the public place and the good players said stop beggin.
I thought, hey men, i just ask nobody give me an answer, so i ask again, i dont beg something.
This behavior of the former player frustrates beginners, not someone trying to kill them.

But we have well understand, only your point of view is valid.
So You try to understand yourself.
You have read well. You try to understand yourself.

Takes some previous post
i take this sentences for example not for those who have written them.
So its not a personnal attack, ok?
And if i had remove your name, you have said, hey man why you remove my name, its my post.
so its like this.

o11c wrote: We have a rule: don't abuse other players.
If you're arguing about what exactly that means, chances are that you shouldn't be doing it.

What means this?
In what Troll have abused other players?
By playing?
You have to stop the game in this case.
He didnt fish or scam or steal or else...he just disturb your point of view.
When i was a noob, someone stole me my warlord plate. I have reported this and gm said we can do nothing, you have to pay attention about what you do.
Nowadays something have change if someone report a similar case?
He did harassment? on who?
players offline?
on people doing nothing?
On people who came online to chat?
So when ppl doing nothing(chating) complain you do something and, when ppl doing something (playing) complain about something you do nothing? what the point?

What about players who have taken all the rare hats and only trade them at high price, how can you make gp to have a rare hat when you are noob?
They dont abuse other players?
selling a warlord plate between 250k gp - 450k gp,
What is fair? 250k gp or 450k gp? and you dont abuse other players?
or selling a isis heart 12kk gp? or the snow google 1kk gp.
ah, in this case players can do what they want?
That take a long time just to have 1kk gp, so the market is closed? opened only for those who have found a way to make gp.
And the others? ah yes stop beggin, its against the rules.

Or those players who trade illia items, "you give me the lazurite robe+ gp or rare hat"
Because of that its hard now to trade a lazurite robe, coz for some players this items is just a trash, but im mage, and as mage i know that is not true. Some say the isis heart is more valuable. Or the banshee bow is the better illia items, do you know how much its cost to use the banshee bow? of course you know.
And some players have just take, i call stole, the illia items+gp or rare hats from the players who wasnt confident with all this market.
Finally some players have everything and others no.
We have a rule: don't abuse other players.
what a rule.

melkior wrote: I don't find anything amusing or appropriate about it when it's used to grief new players, something this game is running short on, anyway.

Of course its not your way of playing.
When the player Luvia comes in the terranite cave and kill all other players, its not funny for the death ppl of course.
the idea dont even come in my mind to do this, but for sure it must be fun for this player.
After all its the game, no?

Dyna wrote: Rule number 1 in this game...Do not abuse other players. End of story.

Following this rule, gm abuse Troll.
He just follow a way of playing, his way.
And like we well understand its not your way of playing.
Its like, you put a sausages near a dog, and you kill the dog coz he eat the sausage.
Who is the most wicked?
and following this...

prsm wrote: ...This is a game played by many, not just your amusement center.

Why Troll make harassment?
If Troll dont make "harassment" he just follow the amusement center of another player.
Like we have seen, it was not the case.
So, Troll is not the center...and another players way is not the center too.
So Troll dont have to follow yours advices. Coz he didnt break a rule.
He makes harrassment following your point, but following what you said your point of view cant be listen. Ouroboros.
if you dont understand i made it simple you are not the center too.
And like you said if you are right, he is right too. Or both are wrong.
But making a jugdment on wrong basis is inappropriate to ban someone.

prsm wrote: There is a fine line sometimes between abuse and fair game play. I have to agree with Mel that you crossed that line.

What about the high players who kill the others player while the event "kill a gm"?
why they are not banned, and more why they are rewarded after killing the others players?
Im here to kill the gm, and continually a player with a banshee bow or with a lazurite robe kill me.
Its not harassment? He doesnt abuse others players?
this famous line crossed by Troll what is it?
Just nothing.
Today its rainning, tomorrow its sunny : guilty.

Its like the command following. Why there is a command following if i cant use it?
So its clear, if someone use the command following its a ban.
What is the big deal?

The deal is following me, do what i said and what i want?
If not, a player can be a nuisance?
WTF?
Are you kidding us? As said nobody is a center.
There is a frame the game, and rules to deal properly in the game.
No rules no infraction.

A gm said its an infraction? On what basis?
Im a gm and i said...??? and its like that or like that because i say it? ...lol.
And after you asking ppl to follow the rules when you cannot deal with your own game?

You did? no, you didnt coz, i repeat, in the game when waric give the dark spell he said to bring disaster.

Now we have to deal with the sense of the priority...
What must be the first? Harrassment? Play the game? Not abuse other players?

Ah today the moon is full, carots will grow up...Oo


Dont waste your time to explain to me why the command following is forbidden.
Dont waste your time to explain to me why noob must be protected.
Dont waste your time to explain to me...i well understand you.
Just understand Troll's point of view.

prsm wrote: Having said that 1h is the smallest ban anyone can get, so you are somewhat lucky.
This thread will remained opened because others thoughts count to, not just yours.

If you kill the caretaker's wife you are banned for 10 mins.
Hey im lucky.
Why if i kill a mobs im banned?
So finally, what banned means? Just nothing coz you can be ban for a reason or another, without real consistance.
Just someone decide, if he is in a good mood and dont have a grief against you, you are safe, if not...



Ok ppl, well understand my point.
Im against nobody, im play just to relax, nothing more, nothing less.
I well understand the siter and the doer, GM and other players.
We can ask to the siters to find an irc channel to chat and dont come online in the game to dont be annoyed by "bad" players.
We can ask to the dark doers to be kind with the siters.
But the both side will find this unacceptable. I think.

Because of this situation you have to remove the sentence of waric in the game.
its a nonsense.
Bring disaster and when you bring it you are banned, its a nonsense.
No matter how its bring down.

Some safe place, must be allowed to the siters.
Not the town coz the town is a public area.
but inside the house.
Hurnscald are full of empty house.
Like this they can find somewhere nice to chat with their ppl and they will not be annoyed by the spamming, the beggin ...always the siters are quite annoyed, of course they try to be relax by doing nothing in the game, its also another way of playing.
And if they are sit in town, something dark can be done on them.
But if you want to disable the dark magic in the town, its not fair.
You have to disable all the magic in the town and the safe place (that means no healing in the town and safe place anymore).
or what is the meaning of the dark magic? kill pink flowers?
I have seen trash using the path of light.

The caretakers house must be safe. Sometimes the graveyard is a mess, thanks to some "ugly"player.
And finally even ppl who complain about it make good exp without moving.

The "cave" in the terranite cave must be safe too, even if its always in pvp, coz sometime the phone ring and we need to find a safe place quickly or the terranite hit your face and kick your butt.

bell chick wrote:in a game that has no penalty for dying how can killing a player count as abusing them?

That is the big deal like i said.


I think its all.
Im aware, some of my words are hard for you to read.
But we cant make clear thing in turbid water.
If you take something for you, its your problem.
If you see something constructive, thank you.


Coz electricity, gas, car, pc was ugly long time ago.
Some "bad" personn use them like they want and some complain about this.
And now?
How are you with electricity, gas, car, pc?

To all, have a nice day


--->>>what is this?

o11c wrote: When you act like a child, you will be treated as a child.

When you act like an adult, you will be treated as an adult.

What kind of philosophy is this?
Who care about your personnal philosophy?
by saying this do you help someone?
By using empty sentences you show your limits. Its sad.

The GMs are chosen by the player community and vetted by TMWC. I trust their judgment in this matter. They are the best people for the job that could be found and have proven themselves daily.

Every possible application of every rule does not have to be listed. The rules are left slightly open-ended to allow the GMs to make these type of judgment calls.

Was it the right call to make? I think it's pretty amusing as well but killing newbies is a bit over the top. What I think doesn't matter anyhow, the moderation team seems to be in agreement.

Personally, I don't mind griefing experienced players. In fact, some of my spawn parties are probably on the line between "spontaneous fun" and "dirty tricks" like luring people into some room with juicy slimes and then dropping nasties in the next room so they can't return after dying. Sometimes the early bird gets the worm; other times he gets the strychnine.

Griefing new players...eh. There's a line somewhere, and that's not obviously on the "more fun" side of things.

I guess this particular situation is a result of adding in Dark Magic. Any new skill or effect like that will shake up game dynamics a little, in ways that are not always obvious before they're added. GMs don't have the benefit of previous experience with this situation, so they had to make on-the-spot decisions. I'm sure that "new territory" was a factor in choosing the 1-hour ban.

Disclaimer: I'm not a GM. I didn't see what happened. My opinion is worth what you paid for it.

*sighs*

It's totally fine when you do this a *few* times... I think we can call it fun then, really.

But when you do this more than three hours long (two days ago) and another over two hours (yesterday) this goes too far and it's totally fine when a GM talks to someone doing this.
Note: those three and two hours were just what I saw, maybe it was longer.

As I said: for some time it's okay and personally I could even laugh about it but it's getting really annoying when you have to revive 10-15 times a day (some people don't enjoy being forced to lie on the ground!).
Also it's not fun when you get killed at other places like in the graveyard's caretaker's house where you have to walk all that stupid way back or have to pay for it (when you don't have a towel).

However, there is something I didn't know which is that even new players in Tulimshar got abused (it *is* abusing).
If the long time frame that makes people being annoyed doesn't already cross line, then here it clearly does.
We already had posts about this in this topic so I make it short: that's an absolute no-go.
Personally when I was new and someone would have killed me this way my first thought would have been: what kind of rude people does this game have?
Bad image on first days is never good.

All in all please don't make another "The Drama World" out of it.
-> many people were annoyed and an official rule was broken
-> Ulith received a warning
-> he didn't listen, did it again and got a *small* punishment that is already long over
A clear issue and hey guys, it's not a big one.

Calm down, think on the other players who might have problems with such fun and just don't do it again in newbie places or for hours

it could have been handled way better by melikior.. specially since i am in guild with him and if it became a issue first and foremost he should have said something to me...

So you think that when you are in a guild with a GM you deserve special treatment? Then I think you really misunderstood the job of GMs.

Saint Tropez wrote: One day, in the terranite cave, in pvp, there is one player who just following me and kill me everytime. I had report this to the gm, and gm said, we cant do nothing coz its the game.
Its was an harrassment for me but nothing was done.

The Terranite Caves are a designated PvP area. You are warned that you are entering a PvP area every time you go in there. If you get attacked there, you're expected to defend yourself.

Saint Tropez wrote: Why you have ban Troll for this?

You keep repeating this in your post, asking why I've banned him, saying that I shouldn't have banned him, and so on. The thing is, by the time you've posted this, his ban had expired hours ago.

I have explained why I acted the way I did numerous times, I don't think I have to do it again.

Saint Tropez wrote: He kill newbies?
And newbies find the gm and make a report against Troll?
LOL
They are not newbies.

No, they didn't report him. I caught him trying to kill newbies while I was @hugo-ing around. When I warped to him, I followed him because I had been getting reports from older players about him.

The rest of your post can be summed up as "because I had a terrible playing experience, why should any other players have a better one."

And that's a rather ridiculous point of view to take. Each and every one of us had a different experience when we started. Every person who had posted in this thread had a different starting experience. Hell, when Crush started playing, there was no Hurnscald because he hadn't created it yet. This game changes constantly, and recently it's been changing for the better. When I started playing there were no GMs at all, everyone stayed in Tulimshar because the Hurnscald mines didn't exist. Neither did the Graveyard. There was no drop protection, either. Anyone could steal your drops. It happened a lot. There was even a character famous for doing it — pickpocket. But just because that was my first experience of this game doesn't mean everyone should be treated the same way.

The game moves on, and so do the rules. As new content is added, new rules will have to be created, or their interpretation changed.

It's progress.

bell chick wrote:in a game that has no penalty for dying how can killing a player count as abusing them?

You start playing a game. The starting area is pretty much empty. Maybe you encounter another newbie, maybe not. You're talking to NPCs, trying to figure out things. Maybe you haven't even touched the Soul Menhir because you don't know what it does. And then someone walks in and kills you, for no reason at all, summoning creatures that you can't defend yourself from. You reappear back in the house where you had started.

I think a lot of people would just give up at this point. There are a lot of free MMOs out there, these days. People have a choice. Had this happened to me, I would've thought the game was completely PvP and left.

Frost wrote: I'm sure that "new territory" was a factor in choosing the 1-hour ban.

Not in the slightest. Bans for breaking rule 1 are progressive (Warning, kick, 1h ban, 1d ban, etc.), and I was only following that. Had he appeared again, doing the same thing, I would've moved on to the next designated punishment. The reason why I moved on from a warning straight to a ban, skipping the kick, was because he had tried to evade me by logging off — something that tells me he was fully aware of the fact that what he was doing was wrong.

melkior wrote:

Saint Tropez wrote: One day, in the terranite cave, in pvp, there is one player who just following me and kill me everytime. I had report this to the gm, and gm said, we cant do nothing coz its the game.
Its was an harrassment for me but nothing was done.

The Terranite Caves are a designated PvP area. You are warned that you are entering a PvP area every time you go in there. If you get attacked there, you're expected to defend yourself.

When a player just only kill you and not the others in terranite pvp its not harrassment?
Its what in this case?
He kill you one, two... ok three times ha ha its fun more its start to be annoying.
And when you dont have a towel and you must pay the travel or walk until the terra cave this situation start to be really annoying.

Expected?
Like i said there is several way of playing this game.
No, i dont like kill other players, its meaningless for me. In this way i dont defend myself, onyl few times i have kill others players in the terranite cave.
I dont find the point to see a lv99 trying to kill a lv70 just for fun and without asking for a duel. And even the guy ask for the duel and the other refuse, he will be kill coz he dont/cant defend himself. And now its worse with all the illia items.
Now while the event "kill a gm" its must be fun coz you dont try to do something, like collecting terra ore or gp from the red slime.

But i have spoke about this to show the meaningless of banning someone because he kill someone else. Not to talking about the pvp rules.
But its seems you didnt ban him for this but for another reason.

melkior wrote:

Saint Tropez wrote: Why you have ban Troll for this?

You keep repeating this in your post, asking why I've banned him, saying that I shouldn't have banned him, and so on. The thing is, by the time you've posted this, his ban had expired hours ago.

I have explained why I acted the way I did numerous times, I don't think I have to do it again.

I just post on the forum to say my point of view. I have repeated this to keep your mind on the subject coz my post is quite long with several example with no apparent link with the subject. Like the terranite cave example.
I didnt say it to boring you.

For me he just use the game in a way you didnt expected.
But the game allowed it.
And from his point of view he have the right to play like this.
And from your point of view he dont have to do this coz he have bored ppl.
This situation create a hot spot with a consequence to ban him.

@Melkior
I have posted coz i didnt like the way he was turned, like a wicked player coz its not the case.
Several players are just sympathic, using the path of light, but in fact they play ugly and mock you coz the game allowed several non normal thing.
And from my point of view, its not because he use the dark magic in a non expected way he must be considered like a wicked player and ban him for that.
And when i said "why you ban him", i said this coz there is also a lot of worse case to ban someone, but that was before i know you ban him for another reason that stated.
Do you have let him know the real reason why you have ban him?
Im sure as gm you have done and you will do your best.

To all, have a nice day

Saint Tropez wrote:When a player just only kill you and not the others in terranite pvp its not harrassment?
Its what in this case?
He kill you one, two... ok three times ha ha its fun more its start to be annoying.
And when you dont have a towel and you must pay the travel or walk until the terra cave this situation start to be really annoying.

Expected?
Like i said there is several way of playing this game.
No, i dont like kill other players, its meaningless for me. In this way i dont defend myself, onyl few times i have kill others players in the terranite cave.
I dont find the point to see a lv99 trying to kill a lv70 just for fun and without asking for a duel. And even the guy ask for the duel and the other refuse, he will be kill coz he dont/cant defend himself. And now its worse with all the illia items.
Now while the event "kill a gm" its must be fun coz you dont try to do something, like collecting terra ore or gp from the red slime.

But i have spoke about this to show the meaningless of banning someone because he kill someone else. Not to talking about the pvp rules.
But its seems you didnt ban him for this but for another reason.

I really hate PvP and I totally dislike that the Terra Caves are a PvP area but if I got killed there 2-3-x times by the same player I'd never even think of calling a GM.
It's PvP, you get warned about it.

But Hurnscald, Tulimshar, etc. are no PvP areas and it's just common sense that you shouldn't hurt other players - in any way.
Yes, this is not in the rules (btw why?) but since it's common sense Melkior did the right thing to talk to Ulith about it.
Also it's in the rules to not abuse other players or exploit bugs.

And as I said before probably no one would have complaint if Ulith didn't do so for *hours* and in newbie areas.

There's a big difference between PvP and griefing. Any "Harassment" has to be taken seriously. Do it once in Hurnscald, everyone laughs, Do it twice in Hurnscald, people start to get a annoying, go around the world constantly doing it and being annoying, Ban. Keep in mind the Ban IS NOT for using the summons to kill people. The Ban is because of the Persons behavior. It's a bullying tactic they way they are using it for nothing other than to grief players. I'll not have that.

Chayenne wrote:Ulith did what he did for 2 days, got warned. To what i got out of his posts Ulith talked about what he did in guild chat. Also it seems that nobody of his fellow guild members critizised him for that behaviour. He was angry about getting an official warning about that from a gm who from his point of view likely already read about his doings on guild chat.

first of all when it all happened melkior was hidden or invisible, which means he cant see what ppl are talking about in guild chat. yes ulith talked about what he is doing in guild chat at this time only me and willee were online, i told him i dont like the idea of killing noobs in tulm, though i had no problem with killing ppl in town. but thats only my point of view, other ppl may find it annoying and it seems they did find it annoying. no one from the online guild members at this time knew ulith was about to banned, GM's dont consult with guild members before they make decisions, i was not granted any GM consulting role from the community and GM's dont need me or other guild members to make decisions, they got their own judgement.
Second of all melkior didn't think that ulith deserves special treatment being in the same guild as him and he already stated it twice, once in this forum and once in phoenix council public section forums u can find the disscusion here: http://phoenixcouncil.com.ar/showthread ... 708#pid708

Chayenne wrote:I have seen people calling this thread the "defend the jackass thread", Ulith was called a "jerk". But this clearly is more a bash the TroLL than a defend the jackass thread. Up to now only one person actually makes serious efforts to gather arguments that pose different perspectives on games rules and gameplay in this thread, that might help evaluating Uliths behavior in a more objective manner. But quite some VIP from Phoenix Clan already felt the urge to point out that its not ok to kill noobs repeatedly ( sometimes slightly less plain sometimes even plainer ( o11c ) ) and that Melkior made a good decision. After the point when TroLL repeatedly asked for closeing the thread as he had nothing more to contribute ( Yes. -- Not in the most polite fashion... ), this thread kept gathering angry comments also from phoenix council members. But not one of you seemed to have cared enough to just tell him to stop before Melkior felt need to warn him.

Afaik and i think as far as o11c knows, o11c is not a phoenix council member. like i said before melkior didn't know what is going on in guild chat when it happened and i didn't follow ulith and didn't know exactly what ulith is doing. its not my role to follow every step of guild member and be responsible for every step he makes, i stated what i think about what he is doing.
i didn't know about any warning he got till after it happened.

Chayenne wrote:I guess that is what made TroLL angry and i can understand him... i expect my guild to be straightforward and critizize me when they feel I'm doing wrong, not wait for some authority to show up. So every person that observed his deeds, felt he was doing wrong and didnt tell him before he got warned might kindly stay quiet, as doing different from my point of view is opportunistic, nothing more nor less.

You guess too much you dont know the details, it seems that you didn't even talk with TroLL after it happened. Afaik TroLL is not mad at melkior anymore for making the decision he made, he took a break from the game as his own decision not by consulting with anybody. like i said, ppl said to TroLL what they think about his actions no one knew how it would end, being a member of a guild with some GM's doesn't grant me any inside information about what decisions they are going to make and i dont have any priviledges affecting their decisions.
Your post just flames this topic even more, i dont think it makes anyone but yourself feel any better.
Though i agree with you in one point, this topic needs to be locked cause the issue was resolved between TroLL and Melkior and since Tux is working on way to prevent further cases like this from happening.

SriNitayanda wrote:Afaik and i think as far as o11c knows, o11c is not a phoenix council member.

Correct.

Well, in that case, topic locked. If anyone has anything meaningful to add, PM me and I will unlock it for you (I'm not trying to silence anyone, I just think we've covered everything here that was necessary, and quite a bit more that wasn't).

*unlock*

By the way: We got a more objective discussion about the general issue with the new summons here.

*relock*