The Mana World Forums

melkior wrote:I am incredibly sorry for that.

Frost wrote:I'm sorry.

Not forgiven!

Frost wrote: It's not that TMWC goes unchallenged; it's that a few devs make decisions outside of TMWC, and then implement those decisions as admin, and those people aren't listening to opinions that differ from theirs.
Melkior had no real effect on the decision-making process before, and his departure will have no real effect now.

To Melkior and everyone else who has given this their best: thank you.
I'm sorry.

Frost, you were warned about these dangers, many times. It was your job to implement organisational protocols to ensure that this did not happen. Instead, you insisted that there was no danger, that everyone was mature consensus-seeking friends, and everyone who opposed you had a dark agenda. This is something you need to answer for, before you ride off into the sunset. Not just for the community you profoundly influenced, but also for yourself, for the sake of closure.

Freya wrote:shakes the melkior

Unfortunately will be missed.

I hope good projects done elsewhere, you are a good programmer and very creative.
The world needs people beyond just writing lines of code.

Thank you for everything you did, know that there are people who like you.

Please do not stop with the Confused Tree.

+1

Freya wrote:shakes the melkior

Unfortunately will be missed.

I hope good projects done elsewhere, you are a good programmer and very creative.
The world needs people beyond just writing lines of code.

Thank you for everything you did, know that there are people who like you.

Please do not stop with the Confused Tree.

+2

melkior wrote: TMWC functions. I may not like the way it functions, but it does. I have been called out for causing strife where there was none, and I was named as a person who did not act in the projects best interests. It doesn't matter at all if I was right or wrong here. What does matter is that my opinion was alone and that by itself made it wrong.

The simple fact that 2 GMs, 2 Admins, ans several advisors resign in a so short time, and so quick after taking critical decisions about this project, show obviously that TMWC does not function, or at least not as it should. And it's eloquent silence makes it even more obvious. This makes me think that the wrong persons are leaving.

I am too old to be fighting windmills, and too tired to throw myself into a revolution
[...]
This gets to you after a while. I'm very passionate about things I like

erm... being passionate is rather a nice quality It does not imply that you're infallible, but who makes no error? probably among those who are staying.

Frost wrote:[...] it's that a few devs make decisions outside of TMWC, and then implement those decisions as admin, and those people aren't listening to opinions that differ from theirs.

Such people should have been fired from this project a long time ago. My opinion is that the TMWC people who leave this project now, in this state, are just finishing to dig TMW's grave, thus I cannot be grateful to them though I regret them.

Frost wrote:It's not that TMWC goes unchallenged; it's that a few devs make decisions outside of TMWC, and then implement those decisions as admin, and those people aren't listening to opinions that differ from theirs.

That's what makes it quite hostile environment for anyone but these devs, unfortunately.

P.S. And I would miss you Melk. You proven to be promising GM and I got used to your events. I can understand it's hard to deal with some people.

Frost wrote:

.:WildX:. wrote:I respect your decision, but none of this makes any sense to me. Especially where you said that "your opinion was alone and that by itself made it wrong". I don't see how a TMWC that goes unchallenged in their every decision would be any better.

It's not that TMWC goes unchallenged; it's that a few devs make decisions outside of TMWC, and then implement those decisions as admin, and those people aren't listening to opinions that differ from theirs.
Melkior had no real effect on the decision-making process before, and his departure will have no real effect now.

To Melkior and everyone else who has given this their best: thank you.
I'm sorry.

So Platyna was right when she said devs should get no additional power over the project?

.:WildX:. wrote:

Frost wrote:

.:WildX:. wrote:I respect your decision, but none of this makes any sense to me. Especially where you said that "your opinion was alone and that by itself made it wrong". I don't see how a TMWC that goes unchallenged in their every decision would be any better.

It's not that TMWC goes unchallenged; it's that a few devs make decisions outside of TMWC, and then implement those decisions as admin, and those people aren't listening to opinions that differ from theirs.
Melkior had no real effect on the decision-making process before, and his departure will have no real effect now.

To Melkior and everyone else who has given this their best: thank you.
I'm sorry.

So Platyna was right when she said devs should get no additional power over the project?

I was both a developer and an administrator back in the day, and I certainly used both hats to streamline certain projects. For instance, rapid testing over the balance testing server.

I always considered that adage to refer to moderation. Moderation was her absolute demesne that we did not involve ourselves in, and she did not involve herself in development. This worked out well enough when I was around, but my successors appear to have had a different experience.

---Freeyorp

Freeyorp101 wrote: I always considered that adage to refer to moderation. Moderation was her absolute demesne that we did not involve ourselves in, and she did not involve herself in development. This worked out well enough when I was around, but my successors appear to have had a different experience.

Perhaps for developers, but ... reading the old threads like the resignation of MasterKenobi as GM show some of the exact problems that led the current GMs (and others) to support the move.

o11c wrote:Perhaps for developers, but ... reading the old threads like the resignation of MasterKenobi as GM show some of the exact problems that led the current GMs (and others) to support the move.

I read that thread, and the topics related about the 2 GM dismiss. The decision was not an easyone to take, but Platyna took it, with the right motivations, and in the right time, and it had to be taken. Whether it was the best possible one or not is another question which could lead to pages of discussion.

wombat in [url=https://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopic.php?p=139918#p139918]Melkior for GM[/url] wrote:His behavior was increasingly hostile in general, towards the committee and towards individuals within it. What changes were made were never satisfactory and his opinion of other leaders is very low. If he didn't step down soon, I would've requested he be removed.

Just as I don't agree with hostile behaviour from a few TMWC members, I don't agree with a priori hotility against TMWC.
I am not aware of such a behaviour you describe. Now If Melkior had it, it would be interesting to everyone to know his reasons. I can imagine some of them very easily though.

To Nard, people need to be able to work with TMWC to be on it. Constant drama, strife and divisiveness is not why people volunteer large portions of their life to making this game happen. Those that can't get along with TMWC aren't wrong, but at a certain point if they can't work with others, they need to move on

I do agree with this part,with the following remark: drama, strife and divisiveness has been a constant characteristic of this game since I began to play here; which led to so many forks and also many leavings with some relative calm periods. When I see this and when I count the number of people who stopped to contribute or silently left since the beginning of this year, I am stunned. Don't you think that it is an indicator that something goes wrong inside the fruit? Just imagine what TMW kept just half of the people who contribute(d) to UFB, TAW, Aethyra, evol, land of fire and those who left TMW ...

Nard,

I understand there is a history of divides in the game, but there is also a strong history of unity as well. My leadership had mainly individual problems and yes, I did lose a handful of people I wish I hadn't, but I gained so much many more and worked to overcome division where I could. When Jenalya took over, TMW was strong. The development team on IRC, for the most part, get along and chatter about what they are doing, jokes, life in general. The game has been great and fun as well. I loved being a guild leader and I had my conflicts with people, but mainly it was about creating a team of players that wanted to get more out of the game than helping new people all day once we finished all the quests (TMW was somewhat smaller then than now).

Sometimes these things need to be reminded of as also happening to remember, this is supposed to be fun and if you aren't having fun, you are doing it wrong.

wombat, please don't misunderstand me I am not attacking anyone, and especially not you. I just try see things as they are. And it happens that things show that there is an obvious lack of friendliness, and trust in this project though some very nice persons are in. I also saw many other things that surprised me a lot (surprise is a weak word) such as IRC dev channels spammed with a huge amount of off topic things or role play in development. You can have fun in game or in #TMWcafe, but not in a dev channel. As long as some people holding power don't change their attitude to a more friendly one towards those who have different ideas than theirs or new ones, or have no respect to the decisions and interests of the "community", dramas will continue to occur and this project will still be a mess, that wears contributors and lead them to the way out when not to one more fork. There are other important topics which can lead to mistrust from players, but let's let them aside, actual issues are enough. I am sad that all the underground work that Jenalya has been making for two years with Frost and a few others seem to melt, and for sure Tux9th and wushin are not responsible of the problem.

edit:

Wombat wrote:Sometimes these things need to be reminded of as also happening to remember, this is supposed to be fun and if you aren't having fun, you are doing it wrong.

*claps*

Freeyorp101 wrote:

.:WildX:. wrote: So Platyna was right when she said devs should get no additional power over the project?

I was both a developer and an administrator back in the day, and I certainly used both hats to streamline certain projects. For instance, rapid testing over the balance testing server.

I always considered that adage to refer to moderation. Moderation was her absolute demesne that we did not involve ourselves in, and she did not involve herself in development. This worked out well enough when I was around, but my successors appear to have had a different experience.

This is what we call fair division of powers (I have also rarely interfered in GM decisions etc.). Glad that finally someone said that aloud - as the propaganda kept saying that I was slowing down development and tying developers hands.

I told you what will happen when developers will gain absolute powers. You have switched one fair monarch to a bunch of oligarchs, each of them having the absolute powers I had around 2007 and then divided it fairly between the project contributors.

As I said TMWC is nothing more than a courtain for certain power hungry people to hide behind and it never was anything else.

I hope that you will finally believe me that the only reason for this take over is to enable developers to have moderator powers. I also hope that you will finally underestand that I led this project for all these years as good as I could - always with its good on my mind.

Regards.