The Mana World Forums

Someone power off my router.


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I got to say that I am impressed with your protest. But I don't think that it will change anything. You can complain and protest all you want, but that won't change the fact that TMW is run by those who work for it. When you want influence, you have to earn it.

You think you can do better than the existing TMWC members? Then do better. Acquire some skills which are needed for the development or maintainance of TMW, volunteer, and show the other TMWC members how they should do it.

I don't think it's fair to say it doesn't matter what the people think, but it's reasonable to assume they might not have all the facts. Still, protest is good and healthy. Let them be heard. They're as integral part of the game as all the admins, artists, musicians, and programmers combined..

After seeing this I am quite assured that TMW is not dead, as we all can see a lot of people/players still care about the game and voiced some of their concerns with this action. This is actually reassuring!

As of what the protest is about?

I am not sure, however I would like to see it as a tribute to Melkior and Frost, people are concerned about them leaving that is what spurred this reaction from what I understand, I hope they see this and understand how much their work was appreciated by the players of TMW.

Is this a swing at someone? Well I am not really sure, some people might have joined it for that purposes, some people might not, the common factor I would say is that we all got concerned that two people who where seen as bridging the gap between TMWC and players left the project. Note that this is not the same as saying that the current TMWC people are not doing a good job.

I joined in, I didn't come up with this idea or initiated any of this, I mainly joined in because of the reasons i stated above. I also think that changes should be communicated more and that tests should be done before things gets pushed to the live server, that is my own opinion and not in any way can I claim that the the other people that participated in this share my views on that.

The climate has turned bad and people are calling eachother names - this does not lead anywhere, I'd like the debate to be more friendly and productive. So I hope that no-one tries to push their intentions behind this on others. If they have concerns they should voice them out in the open and in that way help tmw to move forward in a productive way rather than taking pop shots at people are not present and cannot defend or explain themselves.

That is my view on all this anyhow.

Crush wrote:I got to say that I am impressed with your protest. But I don't think that it will change anything. You can complain and protest all you want, but that won't change the fact that TMW is run by those who work for it. When you want influence, you have to earn it.

You think you can do better than the existing TMWC members? Then do better. Acquire some skills which are needed for the development or maintainance of TMW, volunteer, and show the other TMWC members how they should do it.

And that's exactly how *all* of the 'old days' admins and devs used to treat the players. You want something done, go do it yourself. Never mind that not all of us ever want to be part of management. Not all of us want to be TMWC, but that doesn't mean the average player doesn't matter. It's been a hostile environment. So why bother? Who'd want to join a team like that?

Dyna wrote:So why bother? Who'd want to join a team like that?

We urgently need some masochistically inclined people. Are there any? As for subject, I can see quite many players I know and value left to other servers. Now it's hardly above 45 players at most active time and overall it more and more looks like desert. World where all key decisions are made by one of few people who don't even actually play it doomed to be hostile place for players.

t3st3r wrote:I can see quite many players I know and value left to other servers.

What other servers?

t3st3r wrote:Now it's hardly above 70 players at most active time, exactly the same as it was 3 years ago

FTFY.

Crush wrote:I got to say that I am impressed with your protest. But I don't think that it will change anything. You can complain and protest all you want, but that won't change the fact that TMW is run by those who work for it. When you want influence, you have to earn it.

You think you can do better than the existing TMWC members? Then do better. Acquire some skills which are needed for the development or maintainance of TMW, volunteer, and show the other TMWC members how they should do it.

Crush,
I wanted the demonstration in town, and this accompanying thread, to be a positive action. It was only intended to show that the players care, I'm sorry you misunderstood. Read veryape's post, as he came to the correct conclusion in all of his positive statements. I had hoped devs and admins would be inspired that the players care. If there is indeed some prerequisites to earning the influential level you've mentioned, I'm not aware of any such job description as far as players are concerned.

Crush wrote:[...] When you want influence, you have to earn it.

You think you can do better than the existing TMWC members? Then do better. Acquire some skills which are needed for the development or maintainance of TMW, volunteer, and show the other TMWC members how they should do it.

This is absolutely false. Many contributors acquired knowledge and volunteered without gaining any influence. Many among them were even discouraged by the attitude of a few existing pseudo leaders who believe that their opinion is of higher importance than the one of the smallest player and are deaf, thus dumb. This already existed when TMW was on Platinum, and apparently, they only got worse since the move, since I never saw so many high contributors of any kind (devs, admins, GMs) leave in a so short period. If this fact doesn't make TMWC members question themselves, then the project and the game have no future.

Now I will not thank Frost and Jenalya for their work here because I already did it on in public and in private many occasions. I will just tell my anger to them because they are leaving barely only 10 months after taking a decision that already put a mess in player and contributors "community", I think this is an irresponsible attitude. Note that I think the same about some active supporters of the move that have already left whether they are GMs or just wiki admin. And more when they leave the game and the project submitted to the actions of some persons who have neither the skills, the imagination nor the intelligence to lead this project even if they are able to perform administration tasks; I am not speaking about wushin or Tux... The contributors who do only what they want and take no care of the general interest of the project have to be fired . Frost and Jenalya have to stay, be consistent with their past decision and do the job they wanted to do.
I am glad trhat Freeyorp comes back as an admin but my opinion is that TMW needs Freeyorp and Frost, not or.

TMWC shows now it's lack of efficiency, just as it did in the past (and GHP as well). This project doesn't need a new administrator, even if a new one can lighten the boring tasks, this project needs project leader (s). And a project leader is definitely not a coder nor necessarily an administrator. A project leader has to be aware of computer and development things, but also of project management, communication, advertizing, law, human relations... he or they also have to be able to take decisions when conflicts occur, including firing an admin.

Frost, Jenalya if you leave now, the balance is broken, and it sounds like the beginning of the end.

My TMWC (let me dream a bit):
Frost: Project leader.
Jenalya+wushin: content lead
Tux: Mapping lead
4144: server and client development; general game/player interface
MadCamel: security
Crush, Fother: Graphic leaders (doesn't mean they do all the Job)
Forum: Crush, Frost
web site:? wiki:Freeyorp?
V0id, Freeyorp, Platyna (yes!),(optional: cody (?)) (maybe bertram, bjorn, elven if they still have an interest and are active): advisors (have right to vote).
One GM representant, one player representant.
and that's all. Other people may be developers or even admins, It doesn't mean that they are able to manage a project.

o11c wrote:What other servers?

Try them yourself, some other servers have sometimes more players than TMW. Not to speak about other free opensource games, even mmorpg.

FTFY.

I can't see anything you fixed right correctly, you are not aware of alts because you don't really play, which can represent until 30% of the online list, often 20%, at least 10 to 15%.
70*(1-0.3)=49
70*(1-0.15)=60

Nard wrote:My TMWC (let me dream a bit):
Frost: Project leader.
Jenalya+wushin: content lead
Tux: Mapping lead
4144: server and client development; general game/player interface
MadCamel: security
Crush, Fother: Graphic leaders (doesn't mean they do all the Job)
Forum: Crush, Frost
web site:? wiki:Freeyorp?
V0id, Freeyorp, Platyna (yes!) ,(optional: cody (?)) (maybe bertram, bjorn, elven if they still have an interest and are active): advisors (have right to vote).
One GM representant, one player representant.
and that's all. Other people may be developers or even admins, It doesn't mean that they are able to manage a project.

+1

Nard wrote:My TMWC (let me dream a bit):
Frost: Project leader.
Jenalya+wushin: content lead
Tux: Mapping lead
4144: server and client development; general game/player interface
MadCamel: security
Crush, Fother: Graphic leaders (doesn't mean they do all the Job)
Forum: Crush, Frost
web site:? wiki:Freeyorp?
V0id, Freeyorp, Platyna (yes!) ,(optional: cody (?)) (maybe bertram, bjorn, elven if they still have an interest and are active): advisors (have right to vote).
One GM representant, one player representant.
and that's all. Other people may be developers or even admins, It doesn't mean that they are able to manage a project.

If TMW is a democracy then all TMWC members should be elected by the players.

My TMWC idea:

All active GMs;
1 elected graphics developer;
1 elected programmer;
1 elected sound developer (maybe);
1 elected lead (and content) developer;
+ Advisors.
Advisors should not be inactive members that you're scared to "strip of all titles". Why should people what don't follow the project have a right to affect important decisions for that project?

Nard wrote:they are leaving barely only 10 months after taking a decision that already put a mess in player and contributors "community", I think this is an irresponsible attitude.

I completely agree with this.

.:WildX:. wrote:If TMW is a democracy then all TMWC members should be elected by the players.

That's like saying that because I use and love FireFox I get to elect the people who develop it. Thing is, what the hell do I know about developing a web browser? And what if the people I elect to work on different modules don't even want to work on those modules, or are completely unqualified to do so?

It is and always has been a meritocracy. Democracy doesn't work. Someone can be completely charming yet completely unqualified for a job and still be elected.

Most successful OSS projects (even with large communities) operate off of this model. For a reason.

Why not just an elected player-advocate? Sounds like a good idea to get player-feedback over to the developers.

MadCamel wrote:

.:WildX:. wrote:If TMW is a democracy then all TMWC members should be elected by the players.

That's like saying that because I use and love FireFox I get to elect the people who develop it. Thing is, what the hell do I know about developing a web browser? And what if the people I elect to work on different modules don't even want to work on those modules, or are completely unqualified to do so?

It is and always has been a meritocracy. Democracy doesn't work. Someone can be completely charming yet completely unqualified for a job and still be elected.

Most successful OSS projects (even with large communities) operate off of this model. For a reason.

Why not just an elected player-advocate? Sounds like a good idea to get player-feedback over to the developers.

In that case, you're absolutely right. I never said a democracy is the ideal system. I just remember claims from TMWC of them being a democracy and thought that if that's what they're going for they're not doing a very good job.

As for the player advocate, can GMs not cover that role?

.:WildX:. wrote:As for the player advocate, can GMs not cover that role?

They are supposed to, but I don't really see them doing it. Maybe they need more pr0dding