The Mana World Forums

Billr wrote:A few thoughts here:
[...]

Your custom idea would need to rewrite the draft story and even if we do, I would prefer not to plan the game story based on an idea to keep tmw rare items.
Limiting items is still a problem, some players like 4144 and I have a half hundred chars on tmw, if you limit acorns by 100, it will still be 50 * 100 acorns that will be imported for one player. Importing items will mess up with the economy and balance, we will just import tmw problems into this new game, and we shall not even think to do this.
Your third point makes me think of "keep the tmw part as a ghetto and keep the evol part clean". There are too many good ideas on tmw to be left away, it should be redone.
I don't understand your 4th point.

dragoon84 wrote:there is a way to make everyone happy:

Copy the accounts to the new game is easy as that. what i mean with this is the same chars in TMW will be the same in the new game (same lvl, same stats, same items that they have and the same money). This is just a suggestion

And there will be no dev left.

Pawneeboy wrote:The way i understand it, the artwork is going to be different...so lets say the Banshee Bow would look totally different in Evol than it would in TMW. At least i think that might be the problem. (But i might be wrong)

Not only the look but also the stat, level requirement, value, etc... Anything could change.

One of the idea that I saw on IRC was to transform player's money and items into some kind of points, if there shall be a compensation it should be something like this, but what these points will be useful for? We can't transfer it into our currency.
Also, we will most probably keep TMW player's levels and accounts, it's already *a lot* compared to what we initially planned.

Reid pretty much summed exactly what I think. But of course, I know that a lot of players will just quit the game if they can't get items or money so there might be another solution.

Proposal

• Locked, worthless items that are bound to your account
  • Cannot be traded
  • Cannot be dropped
  • Cannot be used as an "ingredient" in quests that require items
  • Can be sold to npcs for 0 F (that's Evol money)
• A system that dictates which items you get depending on your in-game accomplishments. For example, you could get one item for every achievement you completed:
  • Touched the mana seed
  • Successfully made Dark Green dye
  • Completed the speed skill quest
  • Obtained 10'000 boss points
  • Obtained 100'000 boss points
  • Obtained 1'000'000 boss points
  • Completed Voltain's quests
  • Completed Orum quest part one (torches)
  • Completed Orum quest part two (flowers)
  • Killed the mouboo and took a druid tree branch
  • Healed the mouboo and hugged the druid tree
  • Killed the bandit lord
  • Completed the Illia quest
  • Got two Illia quest rewards
  • Has 30'000 Acorns in the inventory or in bank
  • ... Et Cetera ...
    • The achievements can be anything

Pros

• Since the items are locked to your account, they cannot be exchanged as rares and make players billionaires
• Since the only way to get rid of your items is to sell them for 0 gold, they cannot mess up the Evol economy
• Even players that do not have a stockpile of rares on TMW would benefit from this system by simply completing quests

Cons

• Even though this system would prevent from selling your items, it would be impossible to prevent players from selling their accounts
• The game engine (Hercules) might require some modifications in order to fully lock down the bound items

meko wrote:Locked, worthless items that are bound to your account

.:WildX:. wrote:...unobtainable items - this might be the only time the project will release unobtainables as we're mostly against it as a rule of thumb. These items will not be possible to drop or trade with anybody, so that they don't ruin the game's economy.

meko wrote:A system that dictates which items you get depending on your in-game accomplishments.

.:WildX:. wrote:some players have more history with TMW than others, and they wish for this to be recognised

Your suggestions are very similar to what I proposed. The items which I had suggested to let players keep were always meant to be "locked".

Anyway, I agree with what you said. I would only apply your second point to rare wearable items however, as things that cannot be worn will just become 100% useless if we also make them locked and worthless. Those should just be wiped.

dragoon84 wrote:there is a way to make everyone happy:

Copy the accounts to the new game is easy as that. what i mean with this is the same chars in TMW will be the same in the new game (same lvl, same stats, same items that they have and the same money). This is just a suggestion

This will be importing TMW problems ruining Evol and it's economy.

Reid wrote:
Your custom idea would need to rewrite the draft story and even if we do, I would prefer not to plan the game story based on an idea to keep tmw rare items.
Limiting items is still a problem, some players like 4144 and I have a half hundred chars on tmw, if you limit acorns by 100, it will still be 50 * 100 acorns that will be imported for one player. Importing items will mess up with the economy and balance, we will just import tmw problems into this new game, and we shall not even think to do this.
Your third point makes me think of "keep the tmw part as a ghetto and keep the evol part clean". There are too many good ideas on tmw to be left away, it should be redone.
I don't understand your 4th point.

I'm sorry, I thought the game was being planned as a fusion of TMW and Evol, not that it has already been decided to just use acceptable content from TMW and transfer players to Evol. I need to catch up with what decisions have already been made.

Billr wrote:

Reid wrote:
Your custom idea would need to rewrite the draft story and even if we do, I would prefer not to plan the game story based on an idea to keep tmw rare items.
Limiting items is still a problem, some players like 4144 and I have a half hundred chars on tmw, if you limit acorns by 100, it will still be 50 * 100 acorns that will be imported for one player. Importing items will mess up with the economy and balance, we will just import tmw problems into this new game, and we shall not even think to do this.
Your third point makes me think of "keep the tmw part as a ghetto and keep the evol part clean". There are too many good ideas on tmw to be left away, it should be redone.
I don't understand your 4th point.

I'm sorry, I thought the game was being planned as a fusion of TMW and Evol, not that it has already been decided to just use acceptable content from TMW and transfer players to Evol. I need to catch up with what decisions have already been made.

Evol will die in the fusion process, there are no transfer to tmw or evol, there are possible transfer to tmw/evol.

Billr wrote:

Reid wrote:
Your custom idea would need to rewrite the draft story and even if we do, I would prefer not to plan the game story based on an idea to keep tmw rare items.
Limiting items is still a problem, some players like 4144 and I have a half hundred chars on tmw, if you limit acorns by 100, it will still be 50 * 100 acorns that will be imported for one player. Importing items will mess up with the economy and balance, we will just import tmw problems into this new game, and we shall not even think to do this.
Your third point makes me think of "keep the tmw part as a ghetto and keep the evol part clean". There are too many good ideas on tmw to be left away, it should be redone.
I don't understand your 4th point.

I'm sorry, I thought the game was being planned as a fusion of TMW and Evol, not that it has already been decided to just use acceptable content from TMW and transfer players to Evol. I need to catch up with what decisions have already been made.

The plan is to take the best of both games and put it into a new game. TMW just has more stuff that needs to be done away with due to its age.

Reid, I was looking at the draft story here:
https://beta.etherpad.org/p/r.f29482deb ... 4dfb4cfd0d

Is this correct? I wasn't seeing where the idea of a "customs" would change the story line as the story line is simple and only has the history.

I also noticed here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 0A/pubhtml that the TMW "feel" would be kept but in IRC the devs seem to be leaning towards redoing TMW graphics using Evol's palette.

IMO all options sux, if i would loose all my stuff, i would want back at least all my black clothes and crown. I dont need lvl, weird currency or perks, but im exception, i understand that.

No compensation scheme and no merge (i don't want the TMW to be a tiny island in Evol). If is to merge that have to be both games to merge and not an assimilation of TMW by Evol.

dragoon84 wrote:No compensation scheme and no merge (i don't want the TMW to be a tiny island in Evol). If is to merge that have to be both games to merge and not an assimilation of TMW by Evol.

TMW would not be a tiny island, it would be about just as huge, if not bigger

ohh!! that is awesome but about the compensation for tmw player i suggest a rare item or new skills in the game.
The compensation also can be a new class (the ninja class)

It's a rather difficult problem as opinions will vary. There's no way you can find a result that will satisfy everyone, or even a majority.

The question is how important TMW data is for everyone. As a level 30+, I'm too new to care, and am happy with burning everything if it means I get to play a fresh new game. Personally I see that a stable developer and player community for a modern free game is in itself part of the compensation.

Needless to say, though, veterans who have invested serious time and effort into TMW can't be given nothing. TMW data is important for them. If you feel the economy was broken, then take the value of everything but assets more seriously (e.g. quest completion and levels give more compensation than GP or items).

I vote, don't import raw TMW data; We are doing things over for a reason. I say convert and simplify this raw data into something we can easily save in the new Evol. I'm tempted to say just analyse the value of everything and stash it into a single special currency and decide what to do with this currency later, but even if we do that, we'd have to eventually make a solution.

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To the vets: How do you feel about having simplified versions of TMW maps, or full but town-only TMW maps (both of these being updated to the style of the new game) being available in the new game as veteran-only zones? I don't think there's any gameplay advantage to be gained from access to these zones.

I'm also thinking of a questline created by only TMW players, that only we can play once it's completed.

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Unrelated: Are compensation schemes even a thing? So many games have died in the past with no reward for players. Me and other Dust 514 players watched the countdown, and we spent all our money getting skins and new weapons for the last matches we'd play, before the developers would turn off the servers and begin working on a new game, or nothing at all. We had so much invested in it, even some dudes who bought Aurum with tangible currency, and getting anything other than a new game back isn't really thought of. Plus, we loved Dust 514 and didn't want it to die.

To be compensated is a luxury, for a new game with guarantee of development is already a present from Deus.

SusuKacangSoya wrote:It's a rather difficult problem as opinions will vary. There's no way you can find a result that will satisfy everyone, or even a majority.

The question is how important TMW data is for everyone. As a level 30+, I'm too new to care, and am happy with burning everything if it means I get to play a fresh new game. Personally I see that a stable developer and player community for a modern free game is in itself part of the compensation.

Needless to say, though, veterans who have invested serious time and effort into TMW can't be given nothing. TMW data is important for them. If you feel the economy was broken, then take the value of everything but assets more seriously (e.g. quest completion and levels give more compensation than GP or items).

I vote, don't import raw TMW data; We are doing things over for a reason. I say convert and simplify this raw data into something we can easily save in the new Evol. I'm tempted to say just analyse the value of everything and stash it into a single special currency and decide what to do with this currency later, but even if we do that, we'd have to eventually make a solution.

-----

To the vets: How do you feel about having simplified versions of TMW maps, or full but town-only TMW maps (both of these being updated to the style of the new game) being available in the new game as veteran-only zones? I don't think there's any gameplay advantage to be gained from access to these zones.

I'm also thinking of a questline created by only TMW players, that only we can play once it's completed.

-----

Unrelated: Are compensation schemes even a thing? So many games have died in the past with no reward for players. Me and other Dust 514 players watched the countdown, and we spent all our money getting skins and new weapons for the last matches we'd play, before the developers would turn off the servers and begin working on a new game, or nothing at all. We had so much invested in it, even some dudes who bought Aurum with tangible currency, and getting anything other than a new game back isn't really thought of. Plus, we loved Dust 514 and didn't want it to die.

To be compensated is a luxury, for a new game with guarantee of development is already a present from Deus.

Welcome to TMW. This game and community is more addictive than meth or cocaine. Even if someone wants to quit, they can't. There are only breaks. You've said some good things. There are veterans who don't mind losing their stuff and there are some who want good compensation. It's a slippery slope. TMW is not the kind of game where we shutdown the main server and work on merge. The current TMW server remains as it is and once the merge is done, they will introduce it in test server and after the feedback and opinions, the final merge will happen. As a veteran, for me my friends are more important than TMW-data although I will be bit sad to lose my mouboo hat. But still I want the game to move forward. Worrying that some players might not like it will get us nowhere and as you said we can't make everyone happy.

You won't loose the boo hat because the its will go with the merge is part of the minimum data. The thing that worries me it the race system because i don't know if the char will change race or keep as human.