The Mana World Forums

Please quit telling people you have screenies but don't want to post them. I've seen you do this with three different people on the server. It gets old, especially when coupled with vague accusations.

Wth does Dimond leaving have to do with this thread? I could care less what she chooses to do, your drama with her, etc. Thanks for keeping it between the two of you.

I attend a meeting on occasion because I want to. I think I had a lot of positive input regarding the economy, suggested a server-side auctioneer bot, contributed to the sink by way of some pink antenna, etc. Not everyone in HMC is an enemy, only a few people who are completely whack even care if I make an appearance. If you and Dave got off your ego trips about trying to harass me off the server for five minutes, you'd see I am quite reasonable. Just don't expect to follow me with alternates meant to harass and log everything I say, in hopes I'd say something bad and get banned, then think I will give either of you any respect at all.

I do feel, however, until the wipe, HMC has an overall negative effect on the game. Why?

Newbie Helpers. Since these players get PP for doing this "job", they will give newbies entirely too much gear. This results in the player using these items until they outgrow them, then come back begging for more stuff. So then, they get free antenna and other items needed to skirt around having to do quests, so now, they will come back and expect free ore, since everything else was given to them, the only quest completion they are familiar with is "get this from a player, then go turn in to the npc", so what do we have?

Bunches of level 20 players sitting in the square begging for ore and 100k for their warlord, without understanding anything at all about the game. Their entire experience is skewed, since they never made levels trying to complete these things. These people, since they weren't filtered out early on, are likely to just give up the game rather than work on any levels or mine gold themselves so you end up wasting time on a dead end.

I feel a lot of the newbie helper actions, the resulting begging and lack of awareness on the value of the items has a lot to do with why HMC was discussing ways of intervening when it comes to the economy by coming up with a "standard clan pricing" scheme. If the helpers weren't loading people up at the start, then people would be conditioned to read and think more, thus not spam and beg nearly as much later on. This won't stop the non-english speakers, but not much will, you can tell them a hundred times that Bunny Ears are worth 50k and they'll keep on spamming in failed attempts to sell for 600k. "standard clan pricing" will just result in them not selling their item and stand around longer spamming. A hilarious effect I've noticed from this is how a few members left the meeting after this was discussed, ran to town, and have been on marathons attempting to unload items for top gold. I am guessing they will be the ones arguing for a standardized price for items, then load back up with a net gain from the scheme if ever popular enough to take hold. I know the intentions of the scheme being dreamed up is somewhat pure, but the results will not be.

Finally, my last point of the Newbie Helpers, by not making people work for any items at the start and dodge having to do any quests, they are, in essence, impacting the testing of this pre-alpha game. How is anyone to know what the quest and level climb is like if nobody's actually completing them or working through the newbie experience the way it was intended? Many heavily moderated games will actually lock player accounts for "twinking" newbies and assisting them in getting around content. Not that it should happen here, but with very little content for anyone nearing level 60, it should be encouraged they savor the ride up to that point.

Then there's my situation. The one where only people in the guild seem to be circulating very exaggerated rumors regarding my character. There are now even people who weren't even playing TMW prior to the "pickpocket patch" who claim I stole from them. Just about every time, they are sitting with you or Dave and citing many claims of things that never happened. I get told about how I should be banned for lying, stealing, cheating, all the time by these people, which if I respond at all, people run off to IRC and tell Platyna I am harassing them. Perhaps a reminder of the people running around with weapons that are unobtainable and "tested exploits" while hanging onto however much gold they felt they needed until finding out Platyna is watching and rushes off to sink it, then sits around bragging about how much they contributed-- these are all much worse things than I ever did, considering I just nicked a few drops on occasion then used the money to help people around level 40 reset if they had invested in a lot of Int or Luck due to the lack of in-game warning that these are rather useless stats. Sure, it may have been infuriating, but nobody said you have to carry on for weeks and make things up about someone endlessly to "get even". That's the creepy part of all this.

There is truth in some of the things pickpocket is saying. Too bad that it is said by someone like him with such a bad reputation in the community (justified or not). Thus I am afraid not many people will listen.

Pickpocket,

pickpocket wrote: I do feel, however, until the wipe, HMC has an overall negative effect on the game. Why?

Newbie Helpers. Since these players get PP for doing this "job", they will give newbies entirely too much gear. [...] the only quest completion [such newbies] are familiar with is "get this from a player, then go turn in to the npc", so what do we have?
Bunches of level 20 players sitting in the square begging for ore and 100k for their warlord, without understanding anything at all about the game.

You make two points here; let me comment on the second one first.

While I question how much conditioning excessive help can actually cause, I agree with your point about spoiling and begging, exaggerated though its presentation may be. Still, the effect of the HMC Newbie Helpers is more than a `feel-good' or PP-gaining effect for the helpers themselves: it is also a feel-good effect for the newbies, and thereby for the community as a whole. TMW so far isn't too interesting as a `rat race' to the top, but (partially due to the limited content) derives most of its charm from interactions with other players-- thus, an underlying `feel-good' effect is ultimately beneficial.

But as I said, your point stands. There is very limited content, thus that content is still spoiled far too easily; your protest against the HMC conducting such spoiling in an organised fashion might be true (I don't know what exactly it is that the newbie helpers hand out). But the HMC members I know are largely broad-minded enough to accept such criticism-- though like most human beings, they prefer the criticism being presented in a constructive fashion. Thus, I believe that the most useful thing to do would be to start a dialogue about what HMC Newbie helpers should do and what they shouldn't do, to make the game as enjoyable as possible for as many people as possible.

Your other point is that the HMC has an "overall negative effect on the game". That is a strong claim to make, and while your previous point holds I cannot support this one. Yes, the HMC has had a negative effect on the game in some respects, but (a) there is no reason to assume that these won't improve now that the issue has been brought up, and (b) there are many positive things that the HMC has done for the game, too: it has given players additional `player-generated content', thereby filling the gaps left by content development. For some people, climbing hierarchies such as the HMC rank ones is very entertaining, as is organising and planning and generally trying to make the game more fun for everyone involved. Most importantly (for me as a nonmember at least), the Sunday events-- sponsored by the HMC-- are always an entertaining change from the daily grinding routine.

How these things weigh up depends on how much of an impact you think they have in total, and that is hard to judge. My intuition is that the HMC, despite its inherent problem of being an organisation, has done more good than harm, though.

pickpocket wrote: [possessing unobtainable items, using exploits, bragging about donations] are all much worse things than I ever did, considering I just nicked a few drops on occasion then used the money to help people around level 40 reset if they had invested in a lot of Int or Luck due to the lack of in-game warning that these are rather useless stats.

Is bragging worse than stealing? I'm not sure whether that even matters for this discussion; either way neither is disallowed by game rules. Is possession of unobtainable items bad if a GM gave them to you? It's not the fault of the player, I would say. Using obvious exploits for personal benefit (rather than to validate and report and wipe your own advantage) is the only part expressly forbidden by the game rules, and I am not aware of any active HMC member doing that-- yes, the gold that the HMC used to have originates from an exploit, exploited by now-inactive people. However, to the best of my knowledge the HMC have sunk all of that gold now.

You have a very valid point tucked away in a subordinate clause of another subordinate clause: the game is lacking warnings about luck being largely useless and intelligence presently being entirely useless.

pickpocket wrote: Sure, it may have been infuriating, but nobody said you have to carry on for weeks and make things up about someone endlessly to "get even". That's the creepy part of all this.

I have already commented on this part in a previous message in this thread, and my opinion remains unchanged.

Pickpocket, you have shown yourself to be a highly intelligent individual, and you have many excellent observations about the game. I am sure that your insights and suggestions-- perhaps even your constructive help if you desire to offer it-- would be greatly appreciated by anyone working on improving this game.

-- fate

fate wrote: yes, the gold that the HMC used to have originates from an exploit, exploited by now-inactive people. However, to the best of my knowledge the HMC have sunk all of that gold now.

There's still a few active ones running around under different names. I don't have any real evidence to support this, so I must refrain from finger pointing. I don't know a great deal about the new server, but it would be very wise to have it throw any NPC and player transactions out to a player.log, including the IP of origin and login/char name all conveniently on the same line to reduce the amount of time and effort needed to spot problems.

In regards to unobtainable weapons, I am not going to carry on much about this, but I will mention there was a "don't talk about this" clause attached to people having them. Nothing like walking into snake mountain (on another char, of course) and seeing a dynamic duo whacking snakes for 400+ damage swings, then immediately change to forest bows the moment they notice you.

fate wrote:Pickpocket, you have shown yourself to be a highly intelligent individual

I beg to differ. Perhaps I should post/play while not drunk some day.

Pick, I dont care if you believe me or not. PP is for the person to use as they wish. Its hard to earn gigantic amounts by anyone. The newbie helpers including myself get out there and kill for items to gift them. Newbie stuff. If anyone WANTS to gift someone something nicer sometimes, they can. I'm not going to make rules for them they need to have fun and in general they seem to. And in their own unique way. Let it be known that if they would not have taken the job and only continued to donate their PP would be far more then their job. To be a newbie helper is a gift of the heart and often tedious. You can say anything you want about me Pick, and you sure do. There is no reason to tar and feather those that help the new ones from their heart. Do you know why Pick? Because they remember how hard it was back then and how they almost quit the game.

Hard to recall that if one has not walked in those shoes isnt it?

Your crimes never end

I'm not going to be reading all you babble. Or bother submitting more screenshots obviously doesn't matter anyway does it? How is it you are in TMW when you where banned anyway?

Off my soap box and back to my ego trip.
...good grief sugar

i've earned my stuff and i never was givin anything so if they want to quit for not having stuff that means they must not want to play the game its basically bribing them to play the game

and that is true about you saying you have posts but they are too bad to show which is a lie you tried to pull that bullcrap on me when you have no posts just admit you dont stop making up so many lies sugar thats not what a good person that helps people does.

Because they remember how hard it was back then and how they almost quit the game.

Not really. It was a challenge and kinda fun. There isn't an MMORPG on the planet that is really 'hard', they tend to be designed to give a sense of accomplishment after killing a lot of bugs, monsters, etc with the rewards of nicer loot and more levels. Giving everyone items yourself, as they progress, and doing so ahead of a level they could have done it on their own robs them from any sense of accomplishing anything.

It also creates those "beggar gaps" where they aren't strong enough to earn money, but now fighting lower level things are amazingly boring because, well someone took them on a sword run at level 10 and now they don't want to wait until they are strong enough to go to the mines and get money saved up for warlord.

I'm not attacking you, simply stating what, at least, I think is a fact. Giving people infantry helms, daggers, leather, jeans at the start ruins the experience. In my opinion, much more would be gained by simply showing them where the quests are, then maybe a dagger, or maybe a miner's hat. But jeans? Comon. Sword runs for fresh adventurers? Noooo.

Not admitting to anything here, but it's a fairly easy scam to log in a new character every few minutes, run past a helper a few times and probably score some free jeans to resell at 40-50k and 2k of other items to vendor when a newbie helper is handing things out. I've seen this happen hoards of times. With 50-100 people on the game at any given time, it should not make sense that enough newbies would suddenly be showing up for help when a helper is around to make the job tedious. You are getting your legged pulled by several people when that's going on. Even Ardii figured it out, but couldn't mask his bad english well enough to get away with it every time.

Just some mental floss for the helpers.

..edit.. forgot to reply to this part..

How is it you are in TMW when you where banned anyway?

I don't know, I went to log in the day after I was blocked and it accepted my connection from the same IP I was using at the time it stopped working. My only guess is that me demonstrating via a 9 minute video of your husband "cyber raping" my character immediately before coming into IRC and raising hell about me sitting on people kind of exposed a little bit about how some of you operate. It could be that Platyna may have been standing right there as another character and seeing me getting antagonized prior to spouting off? Dunno. Just happy to be back so I can hang with some in-game friends and offer up advice to newbies.

Also, I am happy to report, since Vink's post, I've gotten no in-game grief worth mentioning here.

haha Ardii has done it tons of times i still have a feeling he still does it just you guys fall for it too many times if the person switches names and looks u automatically assume its a noob when they could fake it i've seen Ardii and others do such before

Yes I have screen shots I sent them to Steve.
sugar

right...

Stop feeding these trolls!

Sorry Dave. I will just let them beat on me.
LY
sug

evadem wrote:Stop feeding these trolls!

Can we finally put the name calling to a rest?

sugarcorgit wrote:Yes I have screen shots I sent them to Steve.
sugar

This many days later I would only begin to suspect someone set up a copy of eathena and started manufacturing whatever screen shots they like. Especially with Dave's character running up, stopping, winking at my guy, then running off repeatedly this morning.

sugarcorgit wrote:Sorry Dave. I will just let them beat on me.
LY
sug

Where, exactly, am I beating you up? I've only expressed what I feel are detrimental effects of the newbie helpers when it comes to your comments. I think more than one other person agrees with me that it is content robbing and the feel good nature of it doesn't go as far as a few people might think. I made no attacks or "beat up" anyone. Not that I recall.

Spoken like a true troll. Keep up the good work.