Platyna has left the building.

[Turmfalke]

Platyna..
no one here doubt how much you have done in the last 3 years and still do in form of hosting tmw, but the really annoying part of you is that "AlwaysRight" mood of you. In the few weeks I am here in tmw I never saw you saying "sorry I have done a mistake". It was always other people fault. I am not the one who could say what you have done right or wrong, but I doubt that everything was right.
It is hard to work in a team with someone who claims to be always right like the pope in Rom.


E:

Ah it is also nice to hear from our adult developers remarks such "oh my, Platyna is leaving? It is second time this month hahaha".

that was me, I am neither adult or a dev and I am very sorry.[

[Platyna]

It is not about how much I have done. And I am not a pope in Rome. There was only one field of disagreement, I was seeking the compromise and Bjorn was not. He acted like a pope in Rome. Bjorn could convince me developers need to have some powers on forums - I made development moderators group, and gave them permission they need. Peavey said he needs to test stuff so I wanted to setup them a test server, exactly the same as official one, and even break the rules of Platinum and make for them shared SSH account - it was ignored, they insist want to test stuff on official server, period. As a content manager I have accepted like 99% of content Jaxad and peavey were suggesting, even at the price of fight with Bjorn (see the fast attack bug when Bjorn raised hell and I have defended peavey's changes). So, Turmfalke, I wonder who is the stubborn one who can't be reached with any arguments, or maybe I should agree for everything so certain people wont feel bashed, insulted and belitted?

Regards.

[z0ro]

I would like to say something (my English is not very good so try understand this) this game is open source right? Open source is where the community has a chance to help each others out, developing new things and what not. You are here to develop the game as a developer, you develop the game to HELP other developers so why do you need GM powers? Why do you even need any powers? You are not helping GM's, you are helping other developers. I hate it when developers join into the team just to get the powers, not just to help other.

This sucks though, I hope you do change your mind Platyna.

[Turmfalke]

@z0ro: it is much more than open source, it's free like in freedom, but that's a other subject.

@Platyna: If I would think the DEVs as GMs is the only problem, I won't say anything. I am still not sure which @commands a dev really needs. But there are much more things in the past. As an example, what's your problem with Katze beeing a gm? I approve it, since I think gms should be people with a high degree of trust and who should Bjørn trust more than his girlfriend?

[yasha]

Its so fascinating how few peoples fight can ruin fun of thousands...... I understand that people don't fit together perfectly so they fight, but your fight (can) affect whole server, and all people on it. All those people help you to fix bugs, they are not playing 0.0.X version of game because it is so much better then others, then to help. And you all ignore their thoughts, so if one administrator can "destroy" another that means he has unlimited power, so why is he on MMORPG where there is so many conflicts? Why you don't make poll who wants platyna to leave, and who doesn't????

[Platyna]

That degree of trust should come from different things than being someone GF. And yes, you may think as you want, this is the only problem I have, especiallu digusting is building ideology about it.

Also, being OSS project in the spirit of freedom doesn't mean anarchy. The best projects have the best organization, well defined roles and responsibilities, show me an admin of FTP server or a mailing list, or community forums of KDE or Linux kernel who is their developer or programmer.

Also, show me even one post when eg. Linus Torvalds allowed everyone do as they see fit, for the sake of freedom. There was even hell, once when, Torvalds said any module without GPL licence will taint the kernel, even those who would be BSD licence or public domain, he said so, period and everyone had to agree with him.

If you underestand a free project and freedom of speech, as "everyone are moderators" and they do what they want without even basic control, then you underestand it wrong Turmflake.

And I always appreciated people who help to fix bugs, problem is now they want to moderate the community.

And there is no reason to vote, I was told by Bjorn to leave, so I did.

BTW I am not fighting for anything anymore. I just felt I owe the community explanation of my actions.

Regards.

[Turmfalke]

That degree of trust should come from different things than being someone GF.

ok, you don't like Katze beeing a gm, do you know anyone better person? should we start a public vote "Who wants to be gm?"?

And yes, you may think as you want, this is the only problem I have, especiallu digusting is building ideology about it.

As I said, I would really like to hear from a dev/gm why he needs his power and not a "It could happen that maybe there could be a situation there having gm power is helpful.

Also, being OSS project doesn't mean anarchy. The best projects has the best and organization, well defined roles and responsibilities, show me an admin of FTP server or a mailing list, or community forums of KDE or Linux kernel who is their developer or programmer.

Sure, we have Elven and Bjørn as the development head and project management. You as the one woman server team and for a long time as our gm. Now, there our player base gets bigger and bigger we "created" the new gm-team.

Also, show me even one post when eg. Linus Torvalds allowed everyone do as they see fit, for the sake of freedom. There was even hell once when Torvalds said any module without GPL licence will taint the kernel, even those who would be BSD licence or public domain, he said period and everyone had to agree with him.

Yes, but does that means we aren't allowed to talk about it?

If you underestand a free project and freedom of speech, as "everyone are moderators" and they do what they want without even basic control, then you underestand it wrong Turmflake.

I never said that.

And I always appreciated people who help to fix bugs, problem is now they want to moderate the community.

I could be wrong at this point, but I don't think they see them self as moderator.(yes, yesterday the making a player killable was wrong)

And there is no reason to vote, I was told by Bjorn to leave, so I did.

BTW I am not fighting for anything anymore. I just felt I owe the community explanation of my actions.

Regards.

I must be a fool to try to repair this.

[Platyna]

Well, I wanted to make Vink a GM, and considered also sugarcorgit ans several other people (guess who I have asked for opinions and suggestions on the first time...yes, those underappreciated, bashed, belited and humiliated developers), too bad my hefty and, IMHO, very efficient way of chosing GMs was crushed. Ah BTW, looks like I know people since Vink makes a very good GM, while Katze made people mad in her first three days of GMship.

And Indeed I didn't liked the remark of me leaving twice in this very month, and I don't have good memory to names.

Regards.

[Turmfalke]

Correct me if I should be wrong but it looks like Katze is much more active than Vink and I don't want to count how many people you made mad in the last years .

[Platyna]

It is about morality Turmflake, anyway I was cooperating with Katze, even if I disagree her being a GM.
Making Crush and peavey GMs was the last straw that broke camel's back.

Regards.

[Turmfalke]

well, it is difficult to get different attitudes to morality under one hat, but as I can see there is one question remaining in this thread.
When does a dev needs gm power on eathena?

[Platyna]

Erm...

1. "To test stuff."
2. "To help out."

I know it is not convincing but this is what I was told. ;)

Regards.

[Jarek]

It'd be cool to have proof of what you're saying. Now it looks like you're jealous that you lost your supreme position as mighty GM.

[Platyna]

You say so? Just to remember you they are level 80 and I am level 99. Yes, indeed lost my position of a mighty GM, hehe. :)
Not to mention I was looking for other GMs such as Vink, just to improve PR. ;)

But seriously, the problem with peavey and Jaxad is a follows: now when project has grown and is sucessful, suddenly everyone wants to get into management. And what is the easiest way to accomplish it? Make some updates, and then lure project admin to give you the power, and make him into argument with a resources administrator and the community manager, who, accordin to experience, wont allow random people to have power.

Peavey, when accepted his special powers were fully aware that me - old project member and server administrator is against him having these privileges, but he accepted them anyway and this way (again) showing me disrespect.

And you know why I was a server admin? Not because the box is mine, but because Elven said clearly - the developers should focus on tmwserv and he does not care about eathena, so basicaly I could do whatever I please, which was profitable for the project. He even said he don't cares if I do the wipe or not.

So eathena server was basically deserted land, I took into my care, so if someone now denies me the honourable right to agree or disagree who should have privileges on it, then it is not fair.

Regards.

[Turmfalke]

Nov 16 20:56:45 <turmfalke> no one here who could explain why devs need gm levels?
Nov 16 20:59:29 <b_lindeijer> Well, the point is, they don't.
Nov 16 21:00:36 <b_lindeijer> And I'm not making developers GMs. peavey and Crush have GM rights only because they can do some stuff that GMs can't, like spawning items.
Nov 16 21:01:18 <turmfalke> why do they have to spawn items? we don't have any @command log
Nov 16 21:01:19 <b_lindeijer> I'm not aware of either of them actually being a GM. And I know peavey doesn't even want to do that.
Nov 16 21:02:25 <b_lindeijer> Well mostly to spawn items when they are needed.
Nov 16 21:02:43 <b_lindeijer> Of course you could argue that I should be the only one who can do that.
Nov 16 21:03:06 <peavey> well if someone reports errors on running server I cant reproduce locally I use my dev account to investigate, it might require certain items or gp or whatever.. I'm not running around policing the game 24/7, I'd like us to "hire" GMs to do that. but I might help out if no GM is around and someone is being a real pain.. like those naked chars
Nov 16 21:03:46 <b_lindeijer> Yes, I am also not a GM officially, but I do kill people that swear.
Nov 16 21:03:57 <b_lindeijer> Usually without telling them.
Nov 16 21:04:14 <b_lindeijer> And I never had anyone from the community complain about that.
Nov 16 21:04:59 <turmfalke> the problem is that we start spreading gm power over to many people
Nov 16 21:05:06 <b_lindeijer> I don't see why it is a huge issue to trust certain people not to abuse their rights.
Nov 16 21:05:14 <b_lindeijer> Well, what are too many? The current list is very limited.
Nov 16 21:05:21 <b_lindeijer> And I do intend to keep it that way.
Nov 16 21:05:48 <b_lindeijer> Platyna keeps repeating that I want all devs to be GMs or something, but I don't know how many times I should deny this for her to believe it.
Nov 16 21:06:17 <peavey> turmfalke: also you might get the wrong idea about some certain things, if you rely on certain forum posts as your primary source of information.
Nov 16 21:06:21 <b_lindeijer> She also thinks having some devs as GM and some others not will make the devs that are not GMs unhappy and leave.
Nov 16 21:06:35 <b_lindeijer> But I've been with this project for 4 years and haven't seen anything like that.
Nov 16 21:06:37 <turmfalke> peavey: i don't
Nov 16 21:07:22 <peavey> ah ok, just wanting to be sure of that :)
Nov 16 21:07:51 <b_lindeijer> Ok, to summarize, there hasn't been any reason to drop Crush and peavey's rights on the server apart from Platyna's principles, as far as I can see.
Nov 16 21:08:15 <turmfalke> the problem is, what would you make if somewhere in tmw would appear a few million casino coins out of the air?
Nov 16 21:08:37 <b_lindeijer> Yes, that's a problem we should solve by logging that kind of stuff.
Nov 16 21:08:44 <peavey> I'd investigate and try to fix the bug
Nov 16 21:08:55 <peavey> at least I got alot of those dupe bugs fixed
Nov 16 21:09:26 <b_lindeijer> I thought we was talking about @item rather than a dupe bug.
Nov 16 21:09:27 <peavey> if anyone hears anything tho I'd be very happy to hear about it as I will fix it
Nov 16 21:09:37 <b_lindeijer> he was*
Nov 16 21:09:41 <peavey> oh
Nov 16 21:09:43 <turmfalke> right b_lindeijer
Nov 16 21:09:54 <peavey> yes, logging of all @ commands to a logfile is coming up
Nov 16 21:10:04 <peavey> we can even make the log public
Nov 16 21:10:19 <peavey> so ppl can follow what administrative actions are being taken
Nov 16 21:10:21 <b_lindeijer> Yes, would be nice to be as transparent as possible.
Nov 16 21:10:32 <peavey> I'd have absolutely no problem with that, I prefer transparancy
Nov 16 21:10:36 <turmfalke> yes, I think that would help
Nov 16 21:11:11 <turmfalke> how much work would it be to add such a log?
Nov 16 21:11:27 <peavey> I'll have it up and running soon, I was delayed by my RL work
Nov 16 21:11:34 <peavey> and some internal problems here
Nov 16 21:12:14 <b_lindeijer> Hehe, so we log to make sure we can trust our eAthena devs, and who implements the log feature? An eAthena dev. :P
Nov 16 21:12:19 <b_lindeijer> Be sure to check the diff for backdoors. ;)
Nov 16 21:12:24 <peavey> it will have [full time stamp] [account id] [charname] [account level] [command target level] [the complete command as given]
Nov 16 21:12:34 <peavey> haha
Nov 16 21:12:36 <turmfalke> -.-
Nov 16 21:12:37 <peavey> :p
Nov 16 21:12:49 <b_lindeijer> @item -nolog 123
Nov 16 21:12:50 <Jaxad0127> not all commands need to be loged
Nov 16 21:12:50 <b_lindeijer> :P
Nov 16 21:12:58 <Jaxad0127> just command levels above 0
Nov 16 21:13:00 <peavey> lets just do it anyway Jaxad0127
Nov 16 21:13:11 <peavey> oh yes, I wont log level 0
Nov 16 21:13:11 <turmfalke> sure b_lindeijer, every dev could undermine eathena
Nov 16 21:13:15 <peavey> too many @time
Nov 16 21:13:19 <Jaxad0127> you want to log every time someone does @time ?
Nov 16 21:13:27 <Jaxad0127> ok then
Nov 16 21:13:31 <b_lindeijer> turmfalke: Note that GMs can't actually spawn items or money anyway.
Nov 16 21:13:34 <peavey> no valid command > 0
Nov 16 21:13:40 <turmfalke> yes but devs
Nov 16 21:13:41 <peavey> if that is ok
Nov 16 21:13:47 <turmfalke> and thats the problem here
Nov 16 21:14:09 <peavey> but I'd prefer all to be honest.. its just text
Nov 16 21:14:12 <b_lindeijer> turmfalke: I think the problem would be more severe if it was the other way around.
Nov 16 21:14:20 <b_lindeijer> That's why we recently swapped that.
Nov 16 21:14:28 <Jaxad0127> we should also advertise the @email command
Nov 16 21:14:53 <turmfalke> thought @email is somewhat broken
Nov 16 21:14:54 <b_lindeijer> Jaxad0127: What will you use the email for?
Nov 16 21:15:13 <Jaxad0127> b_lindeijer: account verification for loast password
Nov 16 21:15:15 <b_lindeijer> Ah damn, I'm forgetting to have dinner.
Nov 16 21:15:26 <Jaxad0127> turmfalke: shouldn't be
Nov 16 21:15:29 <b_lindeijer> Jaxad0127: Ok, so we can send passwords there, sure.
Nov 16 21:15:51 <Jaxad0127> b_lindeijer: I mean if they forget their password, they can tell you that
Nov 16 21:15:59 <Jaxad0127> or just automail a new one to that email
Nov 16 21:16:04 <turmfalke> "@email failed"
Nov 16 21:16:17 <b_lindeijer> Automail would of course be preferred, but I don't think eAthena can do that.
Nov 16 21:18:46 <turmfalke> another thing we may need is a rule about what a dev is allowed to do with a player
Nov 16 21:19:52 <turmfalke> i don't like to see a dev as a locum gm
Nov 16 21:20:04 <Jaxad0127> they shouldn't be
Nov 16 21:21:45 <b_lindeijer> You know, it's alright not to agree with what peavey did.
Nov 16 21:22:03 <peavey> yeah no problem in that
Nov 16 21:22:05 <b_lindeijer> And if we agree that even if such things can be seen as funny, they're not right in general, then he won't do it.
Nov 16 21:22:26 <b_lindeijer> The main problem wasn't the disagreement about what he did, but the way Platyna reacted to it.
Nov 16 21:22:39 <peavey> ofc disturbing elements should be reported and handled proper by GMs
Nov 16 21:23:41 <peavey> but one good thing, they showed be a bug.. eAthena lets you spam "sit-packets" as fast as you like