The Mana World Forums

Posted: **07 Jun 2009, 21:24**

so ? the idea of this post is should we have a list of botters or this is the list of possible botters (add them) or ... ???

Regards

Posted: **07 Jun 2009, 21:31**

I understand the point were trying to make. I agree that a list of botters does not belong in the court house. I made no comments on the "list" because of this.

It's unfortunate you have chosen to ignore the facts in this situation and instead insert your opinions and interpretations.

At no point did I "ride roughshod". At no point did I "scream over and over". At no point did I mock you. At no point did I "push you around".

I simply deleted your irrelevant posts. You were obviously offended by this and chose to act like a child and continue to paste the same comment after deletion.
It was at this point, I decided to treat you as a child and explain, line by line, the rules of the forum as you seem to be misinterpreting them and continue to do so.

Reports with evidence are NOT required. I'm not going to explain this too you again. You can just go back and read my previous explanation.

I will let the words I have posted stand as testimony to whether I was "rude" or a "dick" and let others decide.

....I wasn't "dictating" or telling you what to do. I was stating my position on the thread....

Which is why your comment was deleted. Your "position" has no bearing on the report of botting, and quite frankly your credibility in interpreting the rules is also suspect in my opinion.

MK

Posted: **07 Jun 2009, 21:38**

Jumpy, a list a botters is a bad idea IMO....... in any forum.

I don't think a list of botters belongs in the Court House to be sure. Which is why I treated this particular case as a report of two suspected botters.

I hope that explains things too you.

MK

Posted: **07 Jun 2009, 22:04**

Jumpy, your posts are confusing and second rate, I will not bother to respond to your trolling.

Master Kenobi, the reason I kept quoting the rules is because I was citing the rules, not giving "opinions and interpretations".

"Riding Roughshod"...you mock me and you delete my posts as "irrelevant". You did scream "THIS IS NOT A DISCUSSION FORUM!" and you do this more often than not. What is irrelevant to you in relation to the Court House? I was making a direct response to an irrelevant forum topic in the Court House and because you gave no response to this thread on its lack of evidence (in fact, you agreed to look into the matter) before I made my comment. Your speedy deletion of comments shows poor judgment when other options were available and it appears that you are willing to admit there was more going on than what you were explaining. Why delete my comments without that explanation? Don't you think a better call would've been to respond to my point that such threads did not belong in the Court House? This is what transparency is about.

Reports with evidence ARE required. Read the rules, don't change them to suit your desires.

Posted: **07 Jun 2009, 22:16**

Platyna wrote:This forum is made to deal with players abusing the game. And as in real court house:
- you should submit a case and provide an evidence that abuse occured,

Posted: **07 Jun 2009, 22:18**

i already understood and share the fact that imo denoucement adding names on a list is no good practice.

maybe because i read some things like the human rights, the french constitution or little things like this... maybe because list of people being accused publicly (Dreyfuss, war denounciations and so on... well have a look in history books...)

so i don't think a list of name of people accused is a good idea.

solutions ?
well, there is already a system going on. i see very few botters now and i would not be surprised, if GM had the time to make a stats on how many botters where banned per weeks or months, i would not be surprised so to see a very low number now regarding months ago.

solutions have been implemented to reduce botting.
like poison... i am sure others will come.

Now...
are we talking of reporting real botters afk or reporting campers on spots ?

Regards

Posted: **07 Jun 2009, 22:26**

Wombat who is censuring who now?

who is the troll ?

ahahahah

you really make me laught

Now would you stop your personal wars and try to help the comunity instead of spending time in post serving only your own interests?

there are other ways to make improvements and get results joining competences and good willing.

defenitively not your way.

someday you'll have to accept that things can't be always as you want them to be... life's hard sometime...

Regards all

Posted: **07 Jun 2009, 22:36**

The problem, which you don't seem to comprehend is...... by your own words:

I was making a direct response to an irrelevant forum topic in the Court House

You find the topic irrelevant and I do not. Who is the GM here?

Why delete my comments without that explanation?

Because your comments had nothing to do with my investigation of botting.

Don't you think a better call would've been to respond to my point that such threads did not belong in the Court House?

No. I looked at it as a report of botting, not a "list" to be updated. I've explained this already.

Reports with evidence ARE required. Read the rules, don't change them to suit your desires.

OK, Let's read them and see WHO is changing them to suit there desires..... shall we?
- you should submit a case and provide an evidence that abuse occurred,
I see the key word here as SHOULD. The GM's have already decided that although we encourage supporting evidence, because botting requires a GM witness to be actionable such evidence is NOT a requirement. As apposed to evidence of player abuse where screen shots and such evidence MAY be considered.

MK

Posted: **07 Jun 2009, 22:57**

Jumpy, I'm going to continue to follow Black Don's advice and continue to ignore you.

Master Kenobi, GMs have rules they also must follow. Otherwise players can request the GM be removed and a new GM can be appointed to replace them. I will side with you that you made a judgment call that I disagreed with and outside of your personal attacks (which I've exchanged) I will only say I disagree with you on this judgment.

My comments had everything to do with the rules of the forum, which Dallas was not following. In fact, his post was on the opposite playing field of what should be allowed to be posted in the forum. Here's what I'll do next time: I'll private message you (or other responding GM) such things instead of posting in the Court House if I had a problem with it.

Master Kenobi wrote:- you should submit a case and provide an evidence that abuse occurred,

I see the key word here as SHOULD.

It is a compound sentence where "should" applies to both "submit a case" and "provide an evidence that abuse occurred".

Master Kenobi wrote:The GM's have already decided that although we encourage supporting evidence, because botting requires a GM witness to be actionable such evidence is NOT a requirement. As apposed to evidence of player abuse where screen shots and such evidence MAY be considered.

New rules needs to also be transparent, please submit all new rules that GMs have created so players and developers are aware of them. I can't tell if you are making things up to suit a personal whim or enforcing a rule. Do you think I would've posted anything at all if hearsay is all that needs to be posted in the Court House? Despite what you may think, I'm not writing to satisfy my ego in the Court House and what I said had nothing to do with how you decided to characterize me. Frankly I don't appreciate it.

Posted: **07 Jun 2009, 23:48**

http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 079#p57079

MasterKenobi wrote:In the interest of transparency and my commitment to following the forum rules, I would like to address a few things.

First, the Court House is NOT a place to post a "list" of suspected botters. IMO this type of list in very problematic in any forum, but should not be allowed in the Court House to be sure.

Second, if you are reporting suspected botting please try to have some sort of supporting evidence. I.E. Times, places, screen shots etc. This can help the GM in they're investigation and also helps to protect honest players.

Finally and perhaps most importantly, I've approached this issue as a case of suspected botting where no GM was available online at the time of supposed offense. In that respect I would like to offer that I have talked with NineTails and Puddles on numerous occasions(both before this report and after) and have found NO evidence of botting at this time.

This topic will be unlocked should any affected parties wish to add anything, but please remember this is not a discussion forum.

MK

Posted: **08 Jun 2009, 00:57**

I've nothing against a list of "potential botters" in Player Talk.

But players should remember that another player is not in the obligation to talk to you, for numerous reasons. The first that can come to mind is that the player in question might be ignoring the one that is trying to talk to him/her. At this regards, no one should be seen as a botter if he dont talk. The only persons that would are normally in the obligation to reply to are GMs.

I see the idea though. And having such a list might be good, but it can be risquy too, since almost every player is ignoring another ingame. So the list shouldnt be based on a sole player thoughts, but should be reviewed but other players.

Regarding the issue of having that in the Court House, I'm against it. Court House is for "special cases" that need attention now, not speculations.

On another note, I won't enter in any word war, since I think those are pointless and are refraining us to move forward.

Posted: **08 Jun 2009, 13:28**

I disagree with you Doors a list of possible botters is a bad idea for any thread and I'll show you why. What will happen is that the botting claims will be the same as name calling. <So and So> will claim <Such and Such> is a botting cheater. <Such and Such> will post saying no he is not and that <So and So> is a Weiner or <insert your favorite insult here>. And its just a Flame war from that point on.

(All names used in this example are fictional and do not represent any real people. Any similarities to any actual players in game is coincidental.)

Posted: **08 Jun 2009, 14:01**

Wombat wrote:
Master Kenobi wrote:No, I think I'll walk YOU through the rules:
Mockery of players shows a lack of neutrality and is unbecoming of a GM. This is not about my "ego" or whatever complex you have placed on me for being skeptical of how the GMs operate. This is about a relevant challenge to the existence of a thread in the Court House.

[...]

Overall Master Kenobi, you chose to be a dick when it was clear you could've made better judgement calls in this case to provide players with information on your intentions. Do not abuse the Court House, it is there for the players, not for you to be a dick.

Wombat, your style of debate is very provocative and "bellow the belt". Do you do this on purpose? Because the result is usually to anger the other person and distract him from the point at hand.

I agree with Black Don that a list of potential botters in the player talk forum creates more problems than it solves. Suspected botters should be reported in the Court House and dealt with there.

As for the argument between Wombat and Master Kenobi (and I do love a good argument

) GMs have rules, but also have to use their own judgement a lot of the time; that is what I believe Master Kenobi did in this case and in my humble opinion his was a good call. Wombat, you seem to have a problem with the fact that he did not deal with it perfectly "by the book" (although your argument about the grammar of the rule he "broke" seems a little unsound to me) but I really can't see why this is so much of a problem. The outcome was fair was it not? No player was unfairly discredited or punished.
As for deleting "irrelevant" posts he was deleting a discussion in a report thread. You cling so much to the rules of the forum which you insist Master Kenobi broke, but you ignore the one which states that discussion is forbidden.
At the end of the day the GMs are the authority and I trust that authority. If a lot of people feel a GM is unfair then perhaps (s)he will be changed, but I think this thread proves that is unlikely to happen, and Wombat, you are alone in your opinion of Master Kenobi's authority.

Posted: **08 Jun 2009, 15:19**

To be direct, I apologize Master Kenobi for the name calling. I hope he feels the same with his name calling of me. We both agree on this issue, which wasn't apparent in how the argument unfolded. To better handle a rules clarification like this in the future, my first response will be to private message a GM.

feline monstrosity, GMs do have rules they must follow in how they approach their authority. To further clarify, though I disagreed with Master Kenobi's initial handling of this case, I do "trust" him, but I also choose to remain skeptical to maintain the status quo of how rules are handled in this game. Threads like "List of Botters" do not belong in the Court House and I think at this point there is a general consensus on this. GMs can't make rules up on the fly to suit their personal whims. On this case, Master Kenobi wasn't making up new rules, but he did not initially clarify his disagreement with a "List of Botters" in the Court House, though he has stated he felt this way, but wanted to handle the case because at the time, he felt it had enough merit to look into.

GMs are here for the players benefit and to keep the game running smoothly. It was players that requested GMs be put in this game to handle problems like botting. Players have been requested by developers to review GM activities to ensure they aren't overstepping their granted authority.

My interests in this argument was to protect honest players from attacks that hold no basis, which is also stated very clearly in the "Purpose" of the Court House. I do think Dallas did see something he thought was botting, but he also could've put more time into reporting the case so that some semblance of evidence was presented. If players are going to report other players, it isn't hard to generate a screenshot (on 0.0.29 just press "p") or to discover the time (just hit enter, type something in the chat box, hit enter again and time is displayed) and map/coordinates (hit "F10"). This would give GMs a time/location of the incident. Because this evidence can be fabricated, it is up to the GMs to check on these cases and this evidence helps them know when and where to look. It also makes it slightly more difficult for players to create false claims against honest players.

If I report (and this isn't a rule), I tend to observe the situation for a while to make sure what I see seems like botting, I attempt to engage the player in conversation and after 5-10 minutes, I report to the GMs on the matter, should any be available at the time.

As for the rest of what you say feline monstrosity, I'm not going to split hairs with you.

Posted: **08 Jun 2009, 19:34**

To follow up on what Wombat wrote:

Wombat and I have come to agreement on this issue.

It's important that players feel free to express their concerns and disagreements. It's also important that GM actions are transparent and understood by the community.

Although this instance didn't go as smoothly as it could have, the discussion ended with a proper resolution and perhaps a better understanding of how things could be handled more efficiently in the future. These types of discussions are a good thing IMHO.

Wombat was correct in requesting clarification on this issue. My intentions were not adequately expressed in my original post, for which I am to blame. In the interest of handling things quickly I made a hasty post to let the community know this was being handled. This was an error on my part. I will make an effort to be more thorough in my explanations in the future.

I'm very happy this issue has been resolved. As I have said before, I don't take these things personally and I never carry a grudge. I hold no ill feelings towards Wombat. IMO he is a good and honest player and I look forward to working with him on future issues.

Live long and Prosper.

MK

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