Wow GM's fail these days...

[Kill3rZ]

I know, I posted my opinion on the other thread too, so I'm obviously not on good terms with the development team any more, but I'd still like to answer this one.

I really appreciate the great job you guys do creating and maintaining this project, really, I do. It's just that you guys need to understand the fact that the community is part of the project too. TMW was not thought out as a single player game, but a MMORPG. This place would be a sad deserted world without the community inside. Go check The Alternate World to see how that feels like.

We are real people too and some of us are not whining kids, or kids at all. This is not supposed to be a communist dictatorship. GMs should be here to prevent abusive players from ruining gameplay for the others, and for other related jobs. They should try to be part of the solution if possible. We don't all have to be each and every GM's friends, do we? And I don't think we should be banned for not being that. This is a real community and in such a place you like ones and dislike others.

It IS abuse when the ones of us who have more power solve their personal issues with a ban and/or an insult. If GMs are players too, they should solve their issues like normal players. They can argue or they can leave the fight just like we all do. Going into a kicking/banning spree just because the bad, bad players hurt your feelings is what a spoiled little prince would to, not a responsible person who tries to maintain order inside a human community.

We should respect each other more. Just my humble opinion.

[peavey]

Playing TMW is a privilege, NOT a right. Kindly provided by volunteers free of charge in their spare time. Think about it!

This kind of elitist buffoonery is what creates situations like this in the first place. That's pure ego-mania.

Traditionally that line there is the ethos of any free service I've seen, be it IRC, games or other stuff. And even though you would like to make it about something which it is not, its simply a rewrite of my above statement. That if something is provided like this is, the manner in which you go about interacting with the people behind it, is an adult one.

[melkior]

That if something is provided like this is, the manner in which you go about interacting with the people behind it, is an adult one.

That line is also used as a hiding place when ever some kind of accusation is made. And thus it's ridiculous. Nothing adult about that.

Public shelters are free and provided by volunteers. And yet even they have standards they have to meet.

Whenever you fail at any type of standards, they are either rewritten or this idiotic motto is quoted.

Kill3rZ is right. Respect should go both ways, but the developer side keeps forgetting that.

[peavey]

That if something is provided like this is, the manner in which you go about interacting with the people behind it, is an adult one.

That line is also used as a hiding place when ever some kind of accusation is made. And thus it's ridiculous. Nothing adult about that.

Public shelters are free and provided by volunteers. And yet even they have standards they have to meet.

Whenever you fail at any type of standards, they are either rewritten or this idiotic motto is quoted.

Kill3rZ is right. Respect should go both ways, but the developer side keeps forgetting that.

Irrelevant analogies aside, its not about that. Its about respecting the unwritten "contract" of the relationship between the services provider and the services users. We require only a few simple points be observed by the services users in order to enjoy the service. That its free I can even abstract from and call unimportant too if you'd like. Its about upholding the "contract".

Btw, what is up with all the emotionally laden speak and swear words?

[melkior]

And you feel the service providers are upholding the contract???

Emotions are a part of humanity. Lack of would indicate I'm resigned about the situation.

I haven't noticed any swearwords, though.

[peavey]

And you feel the service providers are upholding the contract???

Emotions are a part of humanity. Lack of would indicate I'm resigned about the situation.

I haven't noticed any swearwords, though.

Well yes, I do have emotions too, plenty, but I often find bringing this "baggage" to a discussion has an unfortunate way of turning it into an argument of "who said what" instead of levering any progress on the subject at hand. Thus stands my first post in this thread on that merit. If you want to be taken seriously and more importantly, have a serious discussion, please leave out the the emotional baggage.. I spend plenty of my spare time on TMW without having to also deal with this extra added, and to the case at hand, completely pointless arguing.

I will however gladly partake in what I referred to earlier as an 'adult conversation'. I can only speak for myself, but I kinda detect the same attitude from my fellow devs. So me stating this is actually a help to anyone who wants to be heard by us, refrain from sounding like.. how do I put this nicely, young people whose sweets were just taken from them.. Sorry that was as nice as I could say it. Absolutely no offence meant.

[melkior]

None taken as I was never given any sweets in the first place, and I'm not exactly young either.

I'll tell you what, I've been in this game for roughly a year and not even once did I notice any willingness to change something coming from the devs unless there was a massive uproar.

I have suggested numerous things (as have others, probably more than I have) which were thrown out as silly, stupid and/or unnecessary and later introduced or mentioned as a potential plan which was their own creation.

I've watched the same things happen to other players. But that's completely irrelevant. We all live with that.

What all of this is about is the fact that you chose 2 GMs who are obviously incompetent of doing their job. None of the other GMs cause such an uproar.

My question is are you defending them only because your ego can't admit that making them GMs was wrong in the first place? What is it?

I cannot see how a reasonably, adult mind can find their behavior acceptable after all of what has been offered in the ban thread.

So are we going back to sophistry and discussion of things that aren't relevant at all or are we actually going to resolve something for once?

I am, and probably others are too, completely prepared to follow a complicated and maybe even more rigorous set of rules if such would be defined. If there was a rule stating that the GMs can do whatever they want, I'd keep quiet. If your metaphorical contract actually existed, I would've bowed my head to you and left this thread, but no...

We are ready and we compromise all the time. You don't. What's up with that?

[peavey]

Well I still detect a bit on agony on your part, but I'll see if I can make heads or tails out of it.

1) The actual case: Yes of course we support that when things get out of hand, the loudest get a short temp ban. This is common practice, and yes, there may even be collateral damage. This is of course wrong, and the acting admin, Jax, stepped in as the admin normally would and flesh it out. That meant the instigator, in this case Dimond, was kept banned as punishment while the lesser culprits was deemed free and time already served to be enough.

It is NOT abuse to get a small temp ban from a GM trying to clear up a situation.. Its a common means of getting things quieted down enough to make heads or tails of the situation. Stop feeling so hurt over a small temp ban, its out of proportions so extreme that I can't even fathom it. You can come to IRC or the forum and ask in an adult fashion that your particular ban be reconsidered because you only played a small part in the riot, you do NOT start threads here calling our GMs "idots", "egomaniacs", "incompetent", "power abusers" with such a thin case. I or very few I know can take that seriously. So when you claim you have to "make major waves" to get heard, this is because the more irate you are, the more I ignore you even harder. Be adult and calm and to the point, and I will listen.

2) Here comes my problem, the aftermath, this is where plenty of mistakes was made. While both players and GMs handled themselves wrongly in the aftermath, I think most of this can be attributed to 'the human factor'. Mistakes like this should be learnt from. This is how you grow as a person. We have traditionally much room for forgiveness if people realise they made an error and learned from it. Not only to the players, but also towards our GMs. We can't expect people in the job to work perfectly from day one, and even those that does, might also fall into a trap like this in the future. The important thing is, when it happens, that you realise your mistakes, possibly apologise if needed to move on, and learn.

Now as for 2) I am in the process of "debriefing" the involved people on our part in the process and I can assure you that the mistakes made will be pointed out, and I will make sure the lessons learned has stuck with them for my continued endorsement of them.

So Melkior, as I said in the beginning, normally I would ignore your above post because of the emotional baggage detected, but this I felt too important to not follow all the way through.

[melkior]

I'm sorry, but you haven't really said anything and I can't help but feel that you completely missed what has taken place.

Have I called someone an idiot? I know I've called certain conducts "idiotic" but there's a huge difference.

*shrugs*

But we'll have to end this discussion because you keep going besides the point.

[Black Don]

Well I still detect a bit on agony on your part, but I'll see if I can make heads or tails out of it.

1) The actual case: Yes of course we support that when things get out of hand, the loudest get a short temp ban. This is common practice, and yes, there may even be collateral damage. This is of course wrong, and the acting admin, Jax, stepped in as the admin normally would and flesh it out. That meant the instigator, in this case Dimond, was kept banned as punishment while the lesser culprits was deemed free and time already served to be enough.

It is NOT abuse to get a small temp ban from a GM trying to clear up a situation.. Its a common means of getting things quieted down enough to make heads or tails of the situation. Stop feeling so hurt over a small temp ban, its out of proportions so extreme that I can't even fathom it. You can come to IRC or the forum and ask in an adult fashion that your particular ban be reconsidered because you only played a small part in the riot, you do NOT start threads here calling our GMs "idots", "egomaniacs", "incompetent", "power abusers" with such a thin case. I or very few I know can take that seriously. So when you claim you have to "make major waves" to get heard, this is because the more irate you are, the more I ignore you even harder. Be adult and calm and to the point, and I will listen.

Sorry Peavey I disagree. Doors did the banning based on hear say and was not present for any of it. I think anyone who uses bans as a threat because they don't like what people are saying is wrong. Since everyone can read the paste bin log they can make their own minds on what happened. The "revolution" as it were was lamb doing a drop party in Hurscald. Oddly he was the only person not banned. So Banning random people to quite things down proved to have the opposite effect and now the whole community was put into an even bigger uproar then if this had been handled responsibly.

2) Here comes my problem, the aftermath, this is where plenty of mistakes was made. While both players and GMs handled themselves wrongly in the aftermath, I think most of this can be attributed to 'the human factor'. Mistakes like this should be learnt from. This is how you grow as a person. We have traditionally much room for forgiveness if people realise they made an error and learned from it. Not only to the players, but also towards our GMs. We can't expect people in the job to work perfectly from day one, and even those that does, might also fall into a trap like this in the future. The important thing is, when it happens, that you realise your mistakes, possibly apologise if needed to move on, and learn.

Now as for 2) I am in the process of "debriefing" the involved people on our part in the process and I can assure you that the mistakes made will be pointed out, and I will make sure the lessons learned has stuck with them for my continued endorsement of them.

The reason I was banned was because Doors wanted to talk to me in private and I refused cause I prefer to have witnesses when I talk. I'm not the quickest when it comes to the Alt+p and it make for some redundancy. I was happy to talk out in th open about anything he wanted but he choose to ban instead of seeking any resolution. As a result all these posts have come to the forum about their conduct. As for Del all you have to do is make a new char walk into town and speak your mind to see the kind of threating belittling whispers she will send you. I've done this a few time to personally investigate some rumors I have heard and after I had personally wittiness her bashing people in public. This event was not a cause in and of itself but a symptom of something far worse.

[Platyna]

I couldn't care less about their feelings if they chase old and respected members of this community, who had crucial role in building this community at all.

I have read all the evidence collected, I see no base for the ban. Wicked sense of humour was always flavour of this community, I have many times encouraged it myself. Those who doesn't underestand it, and are unable to build proper reliations with the community has to go.

Not to mention I had a skirmish with Black Don as well, when he announced that he sells his crown because he disliked my postings on forum. And I can't recon hunting him or banning, even if that was the time that absolutely no one would go across me when it came to decisions about who has the access to the server.

Come on, who will be next to ban? Rotonen or maybe Lindeijers clan?

Until several things happened here, I had opinion we shouldn't discuss GM actions on forums and that dealing with GM abuses should be based on report and simple invigilation of the case. But this kinda got too far.

I was asked to comment on this particular case, since part of the community believes I will do it objectively. So my opinion is that those persons shouldn't be banned - since they did not broken the rules. And after analizing all the evidence in several cases on forum, I would say that Delasia and Doorsman are not suitable to be GMs. Especialy thrilling was when a user posted a screenshot, and a GM, fully aware of this screenshot being real (I have sent it to my friend, who is working as a person processing photos for newspapers and he confirmed this doesn't look faked), announced on forum that the user faked this screenshot, so how a person discrediting other to defend themself, and obviously lying can be a GM? Not to mention that the content I have moved off the public section was reposted, which is spam, therefore violation of forum rules.

Honestly, shame on you, defend the remains of your honour and resign from your positions.

Regards.

[Jaxad0127]

I'll tell you what, I've been in this game for roughly a year and not even once did I notice any willingness to change something coming from the devs unless there was a massive uproar.

Example?

My question is are you defending them only because your ego can't admit that making them GMs was wrong in the first place? What is it?

The GMs choose doorsman and Delasia. Bjorn just abided by their decisions.

As for Del all you have to do is make a new char walk into town and speak your mind to see the kind of threating belittling whispers she will send you. I've done this a few time to personally investigate some rumors I have heard and after I had personally wittiness her bashing people in public. This event was not a cause in and of itself but a symptom of something far worse.

And she did this as a GM?

I have sent it to my friend, who is working as a person processing photos for newspapers and he confirmed this doesn't look faked

You forget that people can run private servers, connect clients, and script things there. The screenshots won't be fake, but they won't be from platinum.

EDIT: responded to Platyna

[melkior]

Example?

There are plenty around. Last time I mentioned one I was ridiculed, I won't do the same mistake again.

The GMs choose doorsman and Delasia. Bjorn just abided by their decisions.

Am I claiming otherwise?

[Jaxad0127]

The GMs choose doorsman and Delasia. Bjorn just abided by their decisions.

Am I claiming otherwise?

My question is are you defending them only because your ego can't admit that making them GMs was wrong in the first place? What is it?

We were not involved with it at all, like I said.

[Black Don]

As for Del all you have to do is make a new char walk into town and speak your mind to see the kind of threating belittling whispers she will send you. I've done this a few time to personally investigate some rumors I have heard and after I had personally wittiness her bashing people in public. This event was not a cause in and of itself but a symptom of something far worse.

And she did this as a GM?

Well bashing them in public could be considered something she did as a player but then whispering a threat to ban them after that cause their bashing only inflamed the situation, that would be a GM thing.