The Mana World Forums

blackrazor wrote:@Freeyorp

I really appreciate your calm reasoned approach to this thread.

I read all that you wrote, and it is nice to have another point of view.

However, I do not think that IRC logs are an adequate substitute for legal documentation. People say things in the heat of the moment, in the middle of a spirited conversation, that they do not intend to bind them legally. That goes for Bjorn and Elven as much as it does for Platyna. (and everyone else human, as well)

words spoken in anger can ruin a persons life and land them in jail, it doesn't matter if the person intended them to legally bind or not. Nobody was forced to write anything they made the choice themselves.

xSlash wrote:

blackrazor wrote:*many pages*

blackrazor, there are some forums I need to annoy. can you help? I pay good.

This is an "official flamewar topic", can't you just stop reading it if it annoys you?

About data... well, since this flamewar is long, let's state some views and rant a bit as well .

1) Copyright stuff and data ownership. I'm finding Platyna (and some other) statements utterly incorrect and maybe even unlawful.
Most juruisdictions would recognize creator of IP object as the only "default" authority who haves rights regarding to created IP object. If datafile record can't be considered IP object, no trouble at all: everyone can use data as long as they can get them. Should records in datafile qualify as "IP objects", copyright law applies. It's particular, player who created that IP object is an author and the only rightful owner of such IP object. By default, if no rules specified (and I fail to remember any copyright license acceptance upon account creation), most authorities would recognize that it's author who helds copyright and authors have absolute rights to do whatever they're willing to. Therefore I utterly fail to understand Platyna's claim on data ownership. I don't see any clear legal grounds she can claim ownership of these data. She have not created these data -> no copyright law could defend Platyna. Kinda simple.

2) As for service providers and hostings.
Neither service providers nor hosting providers can claim rights on IP objects they transfer or serve unless IP object's author explicitly approved this. Say, if I would transfer photo I've created myself over some ISP's channels, it does not grants any ISPs any rights to use my photos. It's me who is author and fact that they passed some packets with my data does not grants them any rights to use my data (unless they offered license agreement and I explicitly accepted it). Same goes for hostings and so on. Isn't it as simple as that? Seems to be major pitfall by Platyna & Co. Looks quite simple to me: no-win in all possible outcomes.

3) As for data wiping and somesuch:
If someone is unhappy with their data handling, there is button to delete their in-game character(s), wiping nearly all data records in server(s) files about that character. They probably can also try to demand full account deletion and/or forum messages removal, should they need to do so. I see no reasons why admins would not execute such requests unless they're seeking legal troubles (which is unlikely). On other hand, I utterly fail to understand why some "blackrazor" could demand, say, my account deletion, for example. If copyright laws apply, as "IP object owner" I never authorized anyone like blackrazor to make such requests on my behalf. If copyright law does not apply, I see no problem at all: all mumblings are safe to ignore, ha-ha . So, as for me, blackrazor's demands to wipe all data are invalid in the very core of their motivation.

4) "Hacking".
If someone can obtain data in standard ways OS is supposed to work, by just running their code in common ways, it can't be considered "hacking". So as long as nobody used exploits to gain "extra" privileges and so on, I see no ways how it can be considered "hacking". If someone thinks that hack tools were used to gain unlawful access, etc - they probably have to prepare strong proof and try to initiate legal actions common. If there is no strong proof of unlawful actions, just GTFO and don't waste people time. Also, even if we'll assume if it's hack, it's really unwise to trust your sensitive data (like passwords, etc) to admins who allow their system to be compromised. Hmm, no-win logic again.

On my personal note I can admit that once TMW server has faced some dumb DDoS attack, targeted on some slow resource hog, better known as Apache web server. Attack worked and web server faced hard times, hogging resources and failing to serve users. This also impacted game as it uses HTTP in some places as well (updates, online players list, etc). That's what we call "school ddos" since lame HTTP flood is dumb, cheap and can be conducted by virtually anyone at their will with zero cost. When server fails due to such a low-end attack, it is a clear indication that admin is a nut which can't evem handle serious web site load. But wait, I've suggested solution and even supposed attacker who happened to sat on the same IRC channel (LOL, just LOL ) confirmed it would thwart such kind of attacks. But hey, Platyna has been lazy or stubborn enough to just ignore all hints and allow server to lag until attacker calms down. And she did exactly nothing to prevent such kind of attacks in future. To be honest, I think that current server admins have chances to perform better. In fact it looks like if they already took some steps in right directions.

5) Personal data processing.
It's tricky and rules could vary across jurisdictions. Somewhere it could be PITA. However, usual convention in internet, especially when it comes to user-generated things is that server owner removes "problematic" data upon explicit request of legal data owner, should it be needed for some reasons. Same goes for copyright infringements, should anything qualify as such. Anyway I utterly fail to understand how the heck certain person like blackrazor (who is not me) could demand someone to delete MY personal (or copyrighted) data on MY behalf from somewhere (wiping "all" data clearly wipes my data in particular). Seems to be really wrong approach.

6) No matter what, developers are the key. Project without developers is dead. Developers could enforce they wishes and preferences in code, should they want/need to. There is no real way to override that. Just maybe way to outperform them in your code and make everyone using it just because it's better. And btw, making devs who write program for you angry/frustrated enough is inherently dumb idea. Devs can easily arrange payback and it could be costly. Yet someone still needs to learn it hard way. And while it's not so hard to replace admin, it could be nearly impossible to replace devs.

t3st3r wrote:About data... well, since this flamewar is long, let's state some views and rant a bit as well .

1) Copyright stuff and data ownership. I'm finding Platyna (and some other) statements utterly incorrect and maybe even unlawful.
Most juruisdictions would recognize creator of IP object as the only "default" authority who haves rights regarding to created IP object. If datafile record can't be considered IP object, no trouble at all: everyone can use data as long as they can get them. Should records in datafile qualify as "IP objects", copyright law applies. It's particular, player who created that IP object is an author and the only rightful owner of such IP object. By default, if no rules specified (and I fail to remember any copyright license acceptance upon account creation), most authorities would recognize that it's author who helds copyright and authors have absolute rights to do whatever they're willing to. Therefore I utterly fail to understand Platyna's claim on data ownership. I don't see any clear legal grounds she can claim ownership of these data. She have not created these data -> no copyright law could defend Platyna. Kinda simple.

Except this project is "copyleft", specifically GPL. By the GPL licence, ownership for the code and art is to their respective authors. Ownership of the playersave data is to the admin running it on their machine. (Unless the input playersave data was copyrighted, in which case the output data would hold the same copyright, but that is not the case here.) Yes, if the admin uses a hosting service, they will have a legal contract with that hosting service that the admin owns the data, and not the hosting service. NO such contract exists for Platyna and she claims she was the admin running it, not just the host. In the absence of a legal document that claims otherwise, Platyna's claim appears valid.

t3st3r wrote:2) As for service providers and hostings.
Neither service providers nor hosting providers can claim rights on IP objects they transfer or serve unless IP object's author explicitly approved this. Say, if I would transfer photo I've created myself over some ISP's channels, it does not grants any ISPs any rights to use my photos. It's me who is author and fact that they passed some packets with my data does not grants them any rights to use my data (unless they offered license agreement and I explicitly accepted it). Same goes for hostings and so on. Isn't it as simple as that? Seems to be major pitfall by Platyna & Co. Looks quite simple to me: no-win in all possible outcomes.

Normally, hosting providers make you sign a contract, either digitally (EULA or TOS) or on paper, that specifically assigns ownership (and legal liability) for the hosted IP to the account holder and not the hosting company. That protects the interests of both the hosting company (that just wants to host, without liability) and the account holder (that wants to clearly maintain ownership of any data, metadata that is created or output by the running software). This was not the case with Platyna; no legal contract exists, and she claims she was the admin, not just the host.

t3st3r wrote:3) As for data wiping and somesuch:
If someone is unhappy with their data handling, there is button to delete their in-game character(s), wiping nearly all data records in server(s) files about that character. They probably can also try to demand full account deletion and/or forum messages removal, should they need to do so. I see no reasons why admins would not execute such requests unless they're seeking legal troubles (which is unlikely). On other hand, I utterly fail to understand why some "blackrazor" could demand, say, my account deletion, for example. If copyright laws apply, as "IP object owner" I never authorized anyone like blackrazor to make such requests on my behalf. If copyright law does not apply, I see no problem at all: all mumblings are safe to ignore, ha-ha . So, as for me, blackrazor's demands to wipe all data are invalid in the very core of their motivation.

You have the right to ask for your own personal identifying data or data that carries legal liability to you, to be wiped. Data from the game (your hitpoints, your castle, your horse, your potions, your gold coins) do not actually belong to you. The game creates the data on the server (their machine), not the client (your machine). Most commercial licences assign the ownership of game data to the same copyright as the ownership of the code and art IP, but not GPL. This game is licensed by GPL, which assigns the ownership of the data to the person running the program. (In the same way as the ownership of the output of a pencil, the drawing, is assigned to the person using the pencil, not the person who made the pencil, and not the person who invented the pencil.) There are exceptions, such as if the program uses an input file, then the copyright of the output file will be the same as the input file. This is similar to a photocopier, the output (photocopies) will have the same ownership as the original documents you photocopied; just because you copied them, you do not own their copyright, nor does the person who build or invented the photocopier, either.

t3st3r wrote:4) "Hacking".
If someone can obtain data in standard ways OS is supposed to work, by just running their code in common ways, it can't be considered "hacking". So as long as nobody used exploits to gain "extra" privileges and so on, I see no ways how it can be considered "hacking". If someone thinks that hack tools were used to gain unlawful access, etc - they probably have to prepare strong proof and try to initiate legal actions common. If there is no strong proof of unlawful actions, just GTFO and don't waste people time. Also, even if we'll assume if it's hack, it's really unwise to trust your sensitive data (like passwords, etc) to admins who allow their system to be compromised. Hmm, no-win logic again.

On my personal note I can admit that once TMW server has faced some dumb DDoS attack, targeted on some slow resource hog, better known as Apache web server. Attack worked and web server faced hard times, hogging resources and failing to serve users. This also impacted game as it uses HTTP in some places as well (updates, online players list, etc). That's what we call "school ddos" since lame HTTP flood is dumb, cheap and can be conducted by virtually anyone at their will with zero cost. When server fails due to such a low-end attack, it is a clear indication that admin is a nut which can't evem handle serious web site load. But wait, I've suggested solution and even supposed attacker who happened to sat on the same IRC channel (LOL, just LOL ) confirmed it would thwart such kind of attacks. But hey, Platyna has been lazy or stubborn enough to just ignore all hints and allow server to lag until attacker calms down. And she did exactly nothing to prevent such kind of attacks in future. To be honest, I think that current server admins have chances to perform better. In fact it looks like if they already took some steps in right directions.

How well an admin handles hacking intrusions has nothing to do with who owns the data playersave files. Sure, we all wish the person who owns the data is able to fend off any attacks, but ownership does not work that way. You don't lose ownership, just because you got hacked. And you don't lose ownership, if you trust certain individuals with file-move access in order for them to do their job of pushing updates, and they use that access to instead relocate a clone of those files somewhere else. To be clear, I'm not accusing (although I certainly have my opinion), I'm just saying that ownership does not change from this.

t3st3r wrote:5) Personal data processing.
It's tricky and rules could vary across jurisdictions. Somewhere it could be PITA. However, usual convention in internet, especially when it comes to user-generated things is that server owner removes "problematic" data upon explicit request of legal data owner, should it be needed for some reasons. Same goes for copyright infringements, should anything qualify as such. Anyway I utterly fail to understand how the heck certain person like blackrazor (who is not me) could demand someone to delete MY personal (or copyrighted) data on MY behalf from somewhere (wiping "all" data clearly wipes my data in particular). Seems to be really wrong approach.

I'm not demanding anything; I'm giving my opinion. I already explained who owns the playersave data, and it's not you or me, unless we run a copy of the game server on our own machines, then that specific world data (playersaves) is ours. This is GPL OSS software, and we are allowed to run our own servers, no problem. And we own the world (playersaves) that we create with that software. But if we play on someone else's world, someone else's server, we do not own it. All we can ask is that they delete personal info, emails, usernames, passwords, IP addresses. We can also demand that we are no longer associated with our in-game assets, to avoid legal liability, and then it is the game company's choice in how to process that claim, either through deletion, banning, setting the assets to non-player or un-owned status, etc.

t3st3r wrote: 6) No matter what, developers are the key. Project without developers is dead. Developers could enforce they wishes and preferences in code, should they want/need to. There is no real way to override that. Just maybe way to outperform them in your code and make everyone using it just because it's better. And btw, making devs who write program for you angry/frustrated enough is inherently dumb idea. Devs can easily arrange payback and it could be costly. Yet someone still needs to learn it hard way. And while it's not so hard to replace admin, it could be nearly impossible to replace devs.

I totally agree that pissing off a development team is a bad idea, but that does not change ownership. It might make a game a lot less fun to play, but it does not change who owns the data.

By the way, to be clear, I am not a lawyer, and I don't think you are, either. I know enough to know that you need a professional, for professional jobs. In my life, I have hired lawyers, notaries, electricians, plumbers, locksmiths, real estate brokers when necessary, to make sure that necessary work was done professionally, legally, and safely. What I have claimed, is that they needed a lawyer (or notary), and legal documentation, in order to make this move legal, since they were cloning property in the possession of someone else (Platyna) who claimed it was hers. They did not do that. Too expensive? Too bad. That's the cost of doing business, even not-for-profit business. Find a pro-bono lawyer, or ask for donations, or crowdfund (all the rage these days) ... but do it with a professional lawyer (or notary), with legal documentation. Not on your advice, not on my advice, not on anyone's advice except a professional. And don't say what you changed is legal until a professional tells you so, and you have the legal documents to prove it.

blackrazor wrote:What I think is really needed, to justify legally such a move, is actual legal documentation that either Elven owns the trademark on the whole of TMW (valid up to 2013, because trademarks can also expire), or legal documents clearly defining the hosting vs. admin arrangements worked out with Platyna, or a legal document defining the ownership of the playersave files or the ownership of the project.

blackrazor wrote:However, I do not think that IRC logs are an adequate substitute for legal documentation.

I'm afraid there just isn't any form of legal documentation, and that's not something that can be changed. All I can do is post logs that can give some indication of the then zeitgeist, and prove that the events that I remember happening did indeed happen at the time specified. I don't believe anyone ever meant ill, and I believe it's worth explaining the perspectives involved.

blackrazor wrote:People say things in the heat of the moment, in the middle of a spirited conversation, that they do not intend to bind them legally. That goes for Bjorn and Elven as much as it does for Platyna. (and everyone else human, as well)

Things that were said were said nonetheless, Stances seem stable and consistent over months and even years, so I don't think it's too unreasonable to assume that people said what they meant in such cases. In any case, as Len bluntly put it:

Len wrote:words spoken in anger can ruin a persons life and land them in jail, it doesn't matter if the person intended them to legally bind or not. Nobody was forced to write anything they made the choice themselves.

And really, quotes like these:

(01:11:39) Platyna: I have resigned from being eathena admin, and resigned from development, all I Duck wanted to do here was maintaining the forums.

(01:19:13) Platyna: thorbjorn: I agreed to give up eathena and all I wanted is continue maintaining the forus, and we had an agreement.

(08:19:45) Kage_Jittai: Platyna: you wanna be a GM again?
(08:20:37) Kage_Jittai: not that I want you to be, just wanna keep our options open
(08:22:43) Platyna: I want to be a server admin, but only for community stuff. But rather because thorbjorn doesn't seem to want to do the job, and Jaxad0127 is ok as for technical person but he has no idea about the community side of the job.

Seem to be pretty clear to me. It's worth pointing out that we have clear definitions of community when these roles were formalised in the [post-manasource split organisation] thread:

Platyna wrote:Me: I do manage the host the eathena runs in general hosting scope plus the part that is community related (which in this case is gm_account.txt).

ElvenProgrammer wrote:Also I would like to consider a couple of other meta-projects: web (which means keeping up-to-date/renewing website, forums, tmwweb and so on) and community (which means forum moderation and in game moderation since I see server-admin more of a tech work)

I could take care of web and I hope Platyna will take care of community.

In both definitions, lead moderator. From the first quote, it seems very clear, and is explicitly stated, that Platyna did understand at the time that her other role was managing the host in general hosting scope. The fact that aspects of service management, such as managing gm_account.txt, was separate from hosting, strongly implies that managing the host and managing the service was well understood as separate roles.

I don't think the three roles (Host, Lead moderator, tmwAthena admin) should be conflated, as Platyna has very definitely been some but not others at various stages throughout the project. I do admit they appear similar enough that it's easy to do so, and in forks and small servers all three roles are often filled by the same person.

blackrazor wrote:In the absence of real legal proof, I think it was still wrong to move the data files residing on Platinum, especially after it became clear that Platyna did not authorize their cloning and she claimed ownership of them on her machine. You don't make such a change without legal documentation, even with near unanimous support and even if you really feel it was your right.

blackrazor wrote:Yes, if the admin uses a hosting service, they will have a legal contract with that hosting service that the admin owns the data, and not the hosting service. NO such contract exists for Platyna and she claims she was the admin running it, not just the host. In the absence of a legal document that claims otherwise, Platyna's claim appears valid.

The earliest of her claims of exclusive ownership I can find was on [2013-04-01], immediately preceding themanaworld.net starting up in [2013-04-02], after you raised the issue.

Fortunately, in the same post she also describes her rationale for her claiming ownership. She was under the impression she was left as sole admin.

The main point seems to be that Platyna claims exclusive ownership of TMW files. As she explains in that post:

Platyna wrote:This is not true. You both left five years ago. TMW was managed exclusively by me. Frost, Jenalya and o11c were given access to these files, but I never relieved my control over them, and they never were project admins. I have also never allowed to copy the files.

These files belongs to me, as I have took over the project after you both left and I am the original service provider, you and Elven just allowed to steal them by people who never were project admins at all. I am currenty the only project admin of TMW, not you Bjorn and not you Elven, as you have resigned from the position five years ago (you were head of development team anyway, not the game admins, on your own request BTW).

When I was given these files by Ultramichy we had 5 players online and very little data. Basically all of work on the game server was done by me or by my request. These files therefore belongs to me and I did not give you the permission to use it. So hand me the copy and remove all other copies.

Lets examine this in detail.

For the first paragraph, it was Platyna that left nearly 5 years ago, on [2008-11-01], shortly after I joined, not Elven or bjorn. Everyone was under the impression she'd quit as moderator too, which led to her global moderator permissions being removed along with maci's during some cleanup not long afterwards, and the massive conflict beginning in late april 2009 when she noticed, involved threats to resign as host that came very close to going through on [2009-05-06], penultimately ended up with conflict on IRC I posted above, and ultimately ended with the manasource split when it became clear the arguments still weren't going to end.
The manasource split happened at 2009-10-24. Even then bjorn was still around, and both Elven and bjorn have always been responsive when they're needed. TMW was managed by Jaxad then me then Frost then finally the current arrangement, as outlined above. When Platyna did try to manage tmwAthena again, in [2012-11-17], she attempted to do so via the controller that had not worked for nearly three years:

gm.log.2012-11 wrote:[2012-11-17 16:56:12] 009-1.gat(58,41) Platyna(2004123) : @broadcast In like 20 minutes I i will try to restart the server for the event. I may break it as someone broke the control scripts I have written...

The first argument in the second paragraph is entirely logical. It seems Platyna assumed control as she indeed wasn't aware of the chain of succession of project admins, so it isn't too hard to see why she might have thought she had exclusive ownership.

I don't see the second argument in the third paragraph as having any weight, though. Ownership simply does not work that way. In any case according to the commit history: Platyna hadn't joined the project yet in 2004; there wasn't anything from Platyna in 2005; Platyna did a lot in 2006 though Elven was more active; Crush was by far the most active in 2007; and Jaxad and Fate were both the most active in 2008. There doesn't seem to be anything from Platyna after 2008.

Therefore, as there was indeed a proper chain of succession of project admins, Platyna's arguments for claiming exclusive ownership are invalid. This is not because of malign intent; she simply did not seem to be aware of the chain of succession, and with everything else that was going on in her life, this is quite understandable.



I'm not really sure what else there is to say. We can each clarify the positions we observe and dig through history to find supporting evidence for the events we remember, but I doubt it's going to change anything at this stage. It is quite likely that matters will proceed exactly as outlined with bjorn's closing statements on [2013-04-01]:

bjorn wrote:On the server side, TMW has always been managed by a group of admins. They gained these rights because the project needed admins and these people have shown their skill and have shown they can be trusted. As a group, they manage the server-side data and can be considered the owners of it.

What happened here was a split of this group, with Platyna on one side and all the others on the another. The data ended up on both sides, and both sides are in my opinion entitled to hold on to it. We should be able to trust each side to handle it with care, like they always have.

Which doesn't seem like an unreasonable outcome at all.
It is nice that discussion proceeded civilly at last. Thank you for taking the time to provide a clear summary of matters.


---Freeyorp

Another point I'd like to make, based on Freeyorp's post:

Based on this post, as of end 2009, Platyna had the following separate roles:

• Server host
• tmwAthena administrator
• Community administrator/manager (I guess we could call it "lead GM", based on Elven's description of "community manager" here)
• Forum administrator
• Other "minor" roles (such as website maintanance)

When the manasource split happened, as Freeyorp said, TMW was managed by Jaxad, but at this point Platyna was still in control while behind the scenes. She claims that she never "relieved her control" over anyone since then. When the server move happened she still had all those roles listed above, the only thing that was removed from her, with pemission from Elven, was her role as server host, because the host was changing to accomodate the community's needs. So there is still the problem of why she was relieved of her other separate roles when the move happened. Was it to prevent her from being an obstacle during the move? Then after the move she should have been reinstated. I know this can cause lots of problems because she hates a lot of people in the TMWC now, but not doing it would be wrong, since o11c, Frost, etc. are still technically under Platyna, she is still part of the GM group and she is still a forum admin. Only her role of server host is now covered by MadCamel.

I say Platyna should be made administrator again, as she was before (except she won't host anymore, unless she's offered the position again), with the premise that she won't kick people out as revenge and she will help solve the issues with the multiboxing rule and the GM and dev at the same time thing. This would ensure the end of this flamewar, a solution for two important issues that we had and a peaceful continuation of the game's development, since TMW.net is hurting TMW.org and could potentially hurt it even more in the future.

@Freeyorp

I've read everything you researched, and it seems we have two very different positions. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understood, I will outline as follows:

I believe, that in order to take / clone / relocate property that was not in your possession and that was in dispute (including virtual property, which has real value in the real world), you absolutely need legal or notarized documentation as proof, in order to validate your claim. You need to hire a notary to make the appropriate contracts, or even a lawyer after the fact, in order to ascertain, without doubt, your legal rights. There is no alternative, even if it is expensive; you can find pro-bono, or collect donations, or crowdfund. One way or another, you must go through legal channels for this move.

You believe, that it is legal and sufficient, to have chat logs that show a pattern of statements, in place of legal documentation, if necessary, in order to act.

I must confess that I am much more comfortable with my position, if my assessment of what constitutes our two positions is accurate. I nevertheless have great respect for the patience and time it took you to collect and process these chat logs, and I feel they provide a great history and insight into the behind-the-scenes social administrative workings of our game community. I thank you for that, and I also thank you for the calm and patient way in which you have presented your information.

The burden of proof is on the complainant, not the defendant. Whomever wants to claim the data as their own needs to prove without a reasonable doubt that they own it.

The only "evidence" I've seen from either side is almost certainly hearsay, lies, or completely nonsense that wouldn't even make it so far as a trash can in a lawyer's office. There was no real agreement, there still is no real agreement, and there will never be any real agreement that resembles something that could be confused as legally binding ownership of the data to any person(s).

It's pretty damn clear everyone assumed this was never going to be a problem and just did their jobs as they saw fit without creating a legal paper trail for ten years down the line. Anyone who says otherwise is full of it.

</rant>

<rant number="2">

You want to say Platinum's TOS makes Platyna the owner? Great, show me where the previous owner expressed consent to the TOS. And not some chat log BS. I'll paste a chat log here for you that is equally valid:

a real chat that definitely happened wrote: Platyna: I think we should give Garrett full ownership of the data.
Jesus: I agree.
o11c: Yeah, let's do it.
Garrett: Ok.
* everyone gives Garrett full ownership of the data. YAAAY!

You want to say that someone else owns the data? Great, show me exactly where that conversation happened. Oh you have a forum post? There's no way that people who have WRITE ACCESS TO THE DATABASE COULD EVER CHANGE A FORUM POST TO SAY WHATEVER THEY WANT. No, that's perfect evidence. Find a lawyer to take the case and I'll pitch in $20 for you. Use this post as evidence I said so because it's a legally binding contract now.

</rant>

.:WildX:. wrote:Based on this post, as of end 2009, Platyna had the following separate roles:

• Server host
• tmwAthena administrator
• Community administrator/manager (I guess we could call it "lead GM", based on Elven's description of "community manager" here)
• Forum administrator
• Other "minor" roles (such as website maintanance)

I'd conceptually considered lead GM and forum admin to both come under the umbrella of being lead moderator, but if you believe there's a meaningful distinction to be had, that can work too.
As a side note, could you please clarify how this supports Platyna having the position of tmwAthena administrator? I read claims of managing the host in hosting scope and of managing the gm_account.txt part of the service to designate GMs. She had previously repeatedly declared her resignation as tmwAthena administrator, and later said she wanted to manage things for "community stuff" (which we see everyone has defined as moderator) only.

From the unusual steps taken to try to restart the server on [2012-11-17], and my own observations in being the one actually managing the tmwAthena service for most of those years, I believe it is at least safe to assume she wasn't managing (or if so, did so rarely) the tmwAthena service before then (with the exception of gm_account.txt, as I do distinctly remember her informing me of changes there a few times) for nearly three years.

.:WildX:. wrote:So there is still the problem of why she was relieved of her other separate roles when the move happened.

There were complaints about her suitability as lead moderator, with all the varied powers that umbrella covers. As I noted above:

Freeyorp101 wrote: The primary complaints I observed, at least as well as I remember them, were as follows:

[...]

The GMs were concerned that Platyna wasn't suitable as a lead moderator anymore.
They felt they had neither the independence to perform their duties (I think someone complained that following instructions of using common sense led to remarks about cutting off hands?) nor the clear direction needed to follow through with cases. The canonical example that seems to be presented as evidence for the latter appears to be the [request for a ruling thread], where Platyna posted after three weeks, to ask a question that was answerable by the first post.

blackrazor wrote:[...]property that was not in your possession and that was in dispute[...]

It was in their possession insofar as they were part of the shared account. Ownership was not disputed until [2013-04-01]. After investigation, I believe I have comprehensively [refuted] the underlying assumptions for that claim. Please point out any weaknesses in my reasoning, I will take no offense. It is only through rigorous examination of positions that the truth rises to the light.



Finally, it's been a few months now, and matters seem reasonably stable. At a historical level, it is still nice to explore TMW's past. At a practical level, without drastic and compelling evidence, I do not believe the status quo will see change.


---Freeyorp

@Garret
I basically agree with you that the chat logs, while historically interesting, are no replacement for legal documentation. In my opinion, the main argument that Platyna has in her favor, is that the playersave data files were in her possession, physically located on her machine, and she claims them as hers while they were on her property. That is physical evidence, and the most compelling legal evidence we have, so far. If any other group, for example the TMWC, wanted to lay a claim to those files, they should have done so through the courts, instead of using their file-move access, intended only for pushing updates, to perform the relocation.

@Freeyorp
Regarding the shared account, my contrary evidence was that they conducted the entire move in secret, precisely because they feared Platyna would go ballistic, and shut down their efforts to move the files off of her machine Platinum. The fact that Platyna was in a position to stop them, and so they had to proceed in secret with their relocation of the files, indicates to me that Platyna had an ownership claim, inherit in her ability and willingness (in their minds) to stop them from moving files off of her property, the machine Platinum.

If they honestly believed that Platyna was holding those files without a valid ownership claim, on her computer, they should have gone to the courts, and not made a secret relocation of the files without her permission. Whichever way you slice it, I feel they had an obligation to do this through legal channels, given that there was an ownership dispute, so much so, that they chose to leave a copy of the files intact on Platinum. If they really owned the files, why would they still leave a full copy intact on Platinum?

And in any case, we live in a lawful society. If you believe a possession is yours, and someone else claims it is theirs and it is on their property, you go through legal channels, you don't take matters into your own hands. I don't think there is any way to get around this basic reality of living in a lawful society.

blackrazor wrote:If they really owned the files, why would they still leave a full copy intact on Platinum?

Why not? Manufacturing perfect copies is trivial in the digital age, there's no loss if there are two where there once was one. "Move" is just copying with unlinking at one end. Why go to the trouble of unlinking anything? There's no benefit in doing so; if anything it just means more data transfer if the new host doesn't work out and events unfold to move TMW back.
Can you explain why you feel this detail was important?

There was not even a remote consideration that the sysadmin would claim ownership of data on eathena@platinum.linux.pl or tmw@platinum.linux.pl. From Platinum's own terms of service:

[[url=https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://platinum.linux.pl/regulamin.php&usg=ALkJrhgvH9XwvAqmOu6Eplg-gI9WbeIuRQ]Terms of Usage platinum.linux.pl[/url]] wrote:5. Administrator is not responsible for the content stored by users on their accounts, the responsibility for the above-mentioned borne exclusively by the user / owner of the account.

Adding new people to the TMW accounts had to go through Platyna, as it was otherwise prohibited. This was done so she could make exception for the hosting terms of service, not because she owned the project; she didn't.

[[url=https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://platinum.linux.pl/regulamin.php&usg=ALkJrhgvH9XwvAqmOu6Eplg-gI9WbeIuRQ]Terms of Usage platinum.linux.pl[/url]] wrote:15. Sharing your account to a third party is prohibited.

blackrazor wrote:If they honestly believed that Platyna was holding those files without a valid ownership claim[...]

Hosting services host files without owning them more often than not. That's entirely valid and certainly not something to sue over. Elven created the project and never ceded sovereignty. TMW began on Elven's home computer, was later transferred to Ultramichy's hosting, and then Platinum's hosting. It has now transferred to a new host once more.


Ownership was not disputed until [2013-04-01]. This was well after the move, which happened on [2013-03-09]. Platyna explained, in her own words, her reasoning for why she felt she had exclusive ownership of the data, even after previously resigning the position that related closest to it. I've shown why those assumptions, while understandable with everything that was going on, were incorrect and that the arguments do not hold.


---Freeyorp

@Freeyorp

Yes, manufacturing copies are trivial in the digital age, but these were no ordinary files. They were unique, in that they contained the secured data of a set of real people, their usernames, passwords, emails, IP addresses, and also the data specific to recreating the unique running eAthenaservTMW iteration: The virtual world of TMW-Platinum. They were the only non-GPL licensed files in the project.

That is very special data, and if one claims ownership to it, I believe that one must ensure its complete safety and uniqueness. Imagine if a full copy of that data were instead distributed with each freely available copy of eAthenaservTMW; imagine the security risks to the users and imagine the dilution effects of having your unique feeling world plastered all over the internet. No, while eAthenservTMW is freely available, the code and art assets are freely available, each new iteration must build their own unique world of players and player civilization, from scratch. There should be no clones allowed.

Posting hosting terms from platinum.linux.pl is an irrelevant exercise (in my opinion), unless you can prove, with legal documentation, that TMW was engaged only in a hosting arrangement with Platyna and nothing more, instead of as she claims, she was the top administrator, final arbiter, and data-file owner of the project, by that point in time. It's not just a simple case of your word against hers or IRC logs, neither of which will hold up in a proper legal dispute. She has the legal advantage of actually having had the disputed datafiles residing on her property, under her control (thus the reason for the secret move, because she could stop it). She claims she gave file-move access to developers, only so they could push updates, and that the relocation of those files to another machine, to start another iteration of the game, was an abuse of the permissions she gave, and done without her authorization, without her consent, without her acceptance, without her permission.

Platyna disputed ownership of the datafiles less than 30 days after they were relocated. There was no reason for Platyna to dispute ownership of the datafiles prior to the relocation, as those files were in Platyna's sole possession, and she had no reason to think that was about to change.

Freeyorp101 wrote: From the unusual steps taken to try to restart the server on [2012-11-17], and my own observations in being the one actually managing the tmwAthena service for most of those years, I believe it is at least safe to assume she wasn't managing (or if so, did so rarely) the tmwAthena service before then (with the exception of gm_account.txt, as I do distinctly remember her informing me of changes there a few times) for nearly three years.

She still had the title, as her resignation was never official AFAIK.

Freeyorp101 wrote: There were complaints about her suitability as lead moderator, with all the varied powers that umbrella covers. As I noted above:

Freeyorp101 wrote: The primary complaints I observed, at least as well as I remember them, were as follows:

[...]

The GMs were concerned that Platyna wasn't suitable as a lead moderator anymore.
They felt they had neither the independence to perform their duties (I think someone complained that following instructions of using common sense led to remarks about cutting off hands?) nor the clear direction needed to follow through with cases. The canonical example that seems to be presented as evidence for the latter appears to be the [request for a ruling thread], where Platyna posted after three weeks, to ask a question that was answerable by the first post.

Alright, but who "deposed" her and with what rights? She was above all the people involved with the move, or if she wasn't she was independent from them as lead moderator. I understand that there have been complaints, but that wasn't nearly enough to take action like that.
As seen here (I know it's just a draft, but it's still relevant) only Elven is directly above Platyna, and AFAIK Elven never agreed to take Platyna's lead moderator title, he only agreed to change the server host. That's why I'm saying that Platyna should be given her position back, if further complaints arise then it'll be discussed publicly and, with Elven's permission, Platyna's position may be revoked.

.:WildX:. wrote:As seen here (I know it's just a draft, but it's still relevant) only Elven is directly above Platyna, and AFAIK Elven never agreed to take Platyna's lead moderator title, he only agreed to change the server host. That's why I'm saying that Platyna should be given her position back, if further complaints arise then it'll be discussed publicly and, with Elven's permission, Platyna's position may be revoked.

Elven was very much made aware of all of our reasons. Just because changing the DNS was the only thing that required his technical intervention, does not mean that it is the only thing for which he gave his assent.

Edit: also, you may find this IRC log informative

2011-11-16 wrote: 11:45 -!- KillingL33t [~KillingL3@platinum-7266F8C2.leasebox.net] has joined #themanaworld
11:45 < KillingL33t> lol @ http://tmw.platinum.linux.pl <-- accidently found the url while browsing the site
11:46 < KillingL33t> Its the same as: http://server.themanaworld.org
11:46 < KillingL33t> :d
11:48 < irukard> KillingL33t: it's the same server
11:48 < irukard> TMW is hosted on platinum
11:49 < irukard> platinum => owned by Platyna
12:06 -!- irukard [~irukard@platinum-A35499F3.siec.idealan.pl] has left #themanaworld []
12:33 < Frost> KillingL33t, it's common to have multiple hostnames assigned to one IP address. In fact, that's exactly why CNAME records exist in DNS.
12:38 < cody> KillingL33t: On your server the 001-1 map can't be read by Mana 0.5.2.
12:48 -!- Ablu [~Ablu@platinum-3C883223.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Broken pipe]
13:05 < Platyna> I do not own TMW irukard.

TheManaWorld ≠ player data