The Mana World Forums

Dead.

GM are definitely not players advocates, nor representants. They are cops. How can they be both?

Matt wrote:Dead.

not yet but I feel the slope accelerating

I just got here, and it seems I have arrived at a hard time for most people. Though there seems to be some community issues, the game is promising and TMW shows many signs of a healthy free software project. I haven't seen anything yet that has made me lose faith in TMW or cause me to not want to contribute. However, I am new to the project and therefore unacquainted. I suppose all I can ask is that if it is truly not worth contributing to the game anymore, some folks on the dev team tell me so, so that I don't waste my time. I think TMW is the best option we have for an MMORPG with a free software license, and I want to help out. But I also want to contribute to a project that has its sights set on expansion and further successes. Sorry to see that folks even have to make threads like this.

Nard wrote:GM are definitely not players advocates, nor representants. They are cops. How can they be both?

Why not? They represent those that do follow the rules.

.:WildX:. wrote:

Nard wrote:GM are definitely not players advocates, nor representants. They are cops. How can they be both?

Why not? They represent those that do follow the rules.

They are in a unique position. They are trusted by everyone, players and developers alike. That's the only way to become a GM. People listen to them.

They interact with the players regularly and have a good view of what's going on in the game when they are doing their rounds. Unfortunately there seems to be a communication gap between GMs and developers. I don't know the cause honestly, but it'd be nice if they would work more closely on things to improve the game for players. Development currently exists in a bit of a bubble. Developers do not want to interact directly with the players as many players are hostile to the developers for some reason. I think this is where the GMs should step up and act as information conduits. If there is a reason they prefer not to do this, the problem needs to be rectified.

I welcome any public posts or PMs from the GMs regarding what I can do to help open up such communications.

Nard wrote:GM are definitely not players advocates, nor representants. They are cops. How can they be both?

Disagree: they're promoted by players and elected by players. Overall procedure suggests they ARE representatives. Primary task of GMs is IMO to keep gameplay smooth and comfortable. GM stands for Game Master, not "policeman". So while enforcing rules is clearly part of this task, I don't see why GMs should be considered as pure oppressors only, especially granted overall procedure.

MadCamel wrote:They are in a unique position. They are trusted by everyone, players and developers alike. That's the only way to become a GM. People listen to them.

Devs can also interact with players as well if they want to. They just need to log in and talk with players.

MadCamel wrote:Unfortunately there seems to be a communication gap between GMs and developers.I don't know the cause honestly.

I dont know either. What do you/everyone suggest(s) to change that? What GMs/Devs can do to minimize the gap?

MadCamel wrote: Developers do not want to interact directly with the players as many players are hostile to the developers for some reason.

For me that is not a reason to not interact with the community. We as GMs also have to deal with hostile players sometimes and it's not because of this that we dont keep trying to make the game more enjoyable to everyone.

Also, if players are hostile to Devs, well maybe they should consider what they are doing wrong then, and like I said previously, be ingame more often. Only like this players that don’t do IRC or such, are able to know what is going on with development and actually know a bit more who is in charge of developing content for the game. And no, a Dev meeting once in a month or so it's not enough imo. If they do it, im pretty sure the hostile behaviour will be minimized.

MadCamel wrote:I think this is where the GMs should step up and act as information conduits.

I dare every player to contact the GM team if you have a suggestion/complaint you would like to he heard/discussed within the dev team. And as for myself, i ll do everything (within my capacities) to help you on that.

MadCamel wrote: Development currently exists in a bit of a bubble. Developers do not want to interact directly with the players as many players are hostile to the developers for some reason.

Incorrect logical chain. Players could be hostile to devs only if they fail to understand certain actions and do not feel good about it. It takes some actions in first place and misunderstanding could only happen AFTER that. And I'm unable to imagine reasons why players should be hostile to devs "by default". And at the end of day... meeting just ended. Has it appeared hostile to you? IMO it has been quite okay, no?

I would say that recent changes with more community outreach by the devs has had a great effect. Devs can explain their reasoning behind certain decisions and get input from the community. It is really a good way to get the community to feel more connected to the development side of things and also has them up to date on what is being worked on.

I feel that those recent meetings and that developers are more accessible for the the average player who does not know about irc etc. feels like a great improvement!

Healthy discussions all around, hopefully it can even encourage players to contribute to the project.

t3st3r wrote:

MadCamel wrote: Development currently exists in a bit of a bubble. Developers do not want to interact directly with the players as many players are hostile to the developers for some reason.

Incorrect logical chain. Players could be hostile to devs only if they fail to understand certain actions and do not feel good about it. It takes some actions in first place and misunderstanding could only happen AFTER that. And I'm unable to imagine reasons why players should be hostile to devs "by default". And at the end of day... meeting just ended. Has it appeared hostile to you? IMO it has been quite okay, no?

Players in-game are mildly hostile to developers sometimes.

Players on forum are majorly hostile to developers most of the time.

MadCamel wrote:

.:WildX:. wrote:

Nard wrote:GM are definitely not players advocates, nor representants. They are cops. How can they be both?

Why not? They represent those that do follow the rules.

They are in a unique position. They are trusted by everyone, players and developers alike. That's the only way to become a GM. People listen to them.[...]

They do not definitely not represent those who follow the rules, there are or have been several examples even of the opposite. This doesn't mean that they are not persons able to enforce the rules towards most players. Players are polled about GMs on very specific qualities, which are very different from those I would ask from a player representative. At the moment I can barely see only one of them who could statisfy both criterions. The GM job changes the view GMs may have form both players and developers. The fact that there is only one way to become a GM doesn't mean that there cannot be other ones, even if it is a complex problem as showed past discussions on that point. If we are not able to imagine more reliable ones, then I doubt there are real developers among us.

o11c wrote:Players in-game are mildly hostile to developers sometimes.

Players on forum are majorly hostile to developers most of the time.

This a perfect example of developer paranoia. No player is hostile to developers, neither in game or in forum; players are hostile to some developers' (or leaders) attitude towards them. This false impression they have might fade out when people will stop to see contributions, especially from new contributors; as an invasion of the territory they have pissed around. Not everybody is seeking for privileges, power or chocolate medals such as dev cap. This project lost many developers who could have joined and contributed weren't such attitudes. I personnally know 5, one of them is very good at pix art and coding, not to speak about all who left ...

o11c wrote: Players in-game are mildly hostile to developers sometimes.

Players on forum are majorly hostile to developers most of the time.

Well, I wonder how it is possible to hear that from such a leader...

You can do a great job alone or with a team, but if there's no communication, or if you don't care about people who're watching your results, that's simply pointless to me since you've no recognition on anything...

o11c wrote:Players in-game are mildly hostile to developers sometimes.

Sometimes. When they fail to understand devs actions and/or unhappy with things landed on their heads or dislike some ways of doing things. I see no reasons for players to be hostile "by default". No, there could be some crazy persons who are hostile to everyone, but most of time it's not a case. So it actually takes some actions to achieve this state of things.

Players on forum are majorly hostile to developers most of the time.

I guess it's partially because only those who are seriously aggravated and unhappy would go as far as posting angry rants on forum (because it's not most pleasant thing to do at all). And at least in some cases these aggravated persons have reasons to be unhappy. On your example: if your attitude makes 2 well-known and respected TMWC members to quit due to reaching their limits and I see how you pissed off active wiki editor and vandalized his futile attempts, attitude like this is not going to improve your reputation (to say the least). Failure to understand such simple correlation between your actions and outcome looks quite silly, btw. Since you don't look completely dumb, the only reason why I waste my time on typing this unpleasant crap is hope that you'll get idea about this correlation and re-think many actions you did. There is nice principle: treat others the way you want to be treated. Take a look on your actions and tell: do you want to be treated the way you've treated some people around you? Guess answering this question would allow you to get idea why there is enough players who are "hostile".

at first i was like: what? game's dead? O_O
and then i was like: LOLOLOLOLOLOL XD

I rarely visit the forums, but just wanted to give my humble perspective. After having played TMW for several years, it does feel as if it's somehow wilting. Mostly it's that many of those I remember from earlier times have moved on (and I'm talking strictly about players here). But it does feel as if there aren't as many players now as there used to be, and the sense of community doesn't feel as strong as it was. I don't really perceive this as the fault of the project---I think every game peaks in popularity and then sees that popularity decline or become stagnant, even with added content. I'm sure as time goes by there will be many players who rediscover TMW and come back.

But we still have many players who are quite experienced in the game, who have accumulated obnoxious amounts of acorns and other items. I'd really like to see more player-led games and activities that don't necessarily involve slaughtering the legions of darkness or beating up one another in Hurnscald. It adds some spice to the game, and players have some fun getting to know one another.