The Mana World Forums

Posted: **26 Jun 2013, 21:02**

.:WildX:. wrote:TheManaWorld ≠ player data

TheManaWorld = player data + other related stuff.

Posted: **27 Jun 2013, 02:50**

.:WildX:. wrote:She still had the title, as her resignation was never official AFAIK.

It was stated enough times to be well understood, and when the time came to put together a reference of roles and responsibilities it was clearly left out. I suppose you could possibly construe it as claiming ownership of gm_account.txt, though that would not be my interpretation. In any case, a functionally equivalent gm_account.txt (minus useful but non-essential comments like the timestamps) could be trivially built from scratch without reference to the file that Platyna managed, if it's really necessary.

.:WildX:. wrote:Alright, but who "deposed" her and with what rights? She was above all the people involved with the move, or if she wasn't she was independent from them as lead moderator. I understand that there have been complaints, but that wasn't nearly enough to take action like that.
As seen here (I know it's just a draft, but it's still relevant) only Elven is directly above Platyna, and AFAIK Elven never agreed to take Platyna's lead moderator title, he only agreed to change the server host. That's why I'm saying that Platyna should be given her position back, if further complaints arise then it'll be discussed publicly and, with Elven's permission, Platyna's position may be revoked.

I was under the impression her position as lead moderator was revoked as one of the first actions of the newly formed TMWC. Pragmatically, I suspect there will be far more GM resignations than just [MasterKenobi] if Platyna comes back a third time, as none of them seem to want to even consider working beneath her again. You make a logically sound point, though; I'll investigate the specific events around that.

blackrazor wrote:[...]TMW-Platinum[...]

o11c wrote:TheManaWorld = player data + other related stuff.

TMW did not begin on Platinum. TMW's data has moved multiple times over the history of the project, sometimes directly, sometimes with little roleplay quirks to bring the move into the game. For instance, soulless characters, characters that sold their soul for massive stat boosts, but would be left behind and would not be moved to the new server. o11c is quite right here. Manasource is the generic project, not TMW. TMW was a full project, and building a community was a part of its publicly stated goals long before Platyna joined, let alone hosted:

Project description [[url=http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php?title=Project_description&oldid=154]2005-05-23[/url]] wrote:The Mana World aims to be a unique place for people to interact not only by fighting each other but to play life, form a community within the community or just simply chat.

blackrazor wrote:Posting hosting terms from platinum.linux.pl is an irrelevant exercise[...]

Platyna has always seemed to consider them relevant:

./#themanaworld.chat/2009-10-14.084751+1300NZDT.txt wrote:Conversation with #themanaworld at Wed 14 Oct 2009 08:47:51 NZDT on Freeyorp@irc.freenode.net (irc)
(08:47:52) #themanaworld: The topic for #themanaworld is: The Mana World MMORPG - http://themanaworld.org - Please speak English
(08:47:58) Rotonen: Platyna: i don't really care where we host our services, but your quality of service does not come free so easily, i'm afraid
(08:47:59) Platyna: Less than a month ago.
(08:48:04) Adrena_: why do you care turmfalke, in your opinion its completely pointless as you said
(08:48:08) Rotonen: Platyna: btw, have you heard of these privacy certificates?
(08:48:19) Platyna: Rotonen: huh?
(08:48:24) Rotonen: i guess we could or should get one and demand the forks we are going to list in our server browser also have one
(08:48:39) turmfalke_: Platyna: then it shouldn't
(08:48:45) Leela: now i sent it Platyna.
(08:48:54) turmfalke_: only found a char called "platyna mule" in the last purge
(08:49:26) turmfalke_: Rotonen: what is a private certificate?
(08:49:26) Platyna: What the hell I logged on last time like a month ago or less.
(08:49:34) Rotonen: Platyna: http://www.esrb.org/privacy/index.jsp <- that for example
(08:50:02) turmfalke_: Platyna: are you able to create a new acc with your name?
(08:50:02) Rotonen: Platyna: some commercial online games have started to get those
(08:50:21) thorbjorn: Platyna: Was the pass the same as the username?
(08:50:39) turmfalke_: thorbjorn: I doubt that
(08:50:59) thorbjorn: Well it'd explain deletion...
(08:51:53) Adrena_: platyna, now tel me you feel like nothing happened plz
(08:52:21) turmfalke_: thorbjorn: and disqualify here as a server admin
(08:52:27) Platyna: thorbjorn: Would I have pass the same as username. ;>
(08:52:37) Platyna: ?
(08:52:37) Platyna: ;]
(08:53:03) Adrena_: and even if so, its not stated anywhere that it would cause deletion
(08:53:06) Platyna: Anyway I found my account. I thought it wasn't case sensitive.
(08:53:11) Jaxad0127: back
(08:53:11) Platyna: So it is Platyna.
(08:53:13) Platyna:
(08:53:36) Rotonen: thorbjorn: btw, what do you think of getting a privacy certification for tmw?
(08:53:47) Rotonen: thorbjorn: and also demanding it from our forks we're listing
(08:53:48) Jaxad0127: Platyna: it isn't case sensitive unless two accounts have the same case-insenstive representation, then it becomes case sensitive
(08:53:57) Platyna: Jaxad0127: You can enable luser registration.
(08:54:02) Jaxad0127: I read
(08:54:12) Jaxad0127: I'll look into those reg limits
(08:54:18) thorbjorn: Rotonen: What does that mean?
(08:54:22) turmfalke_: Jaxad0127: means we have "platyna" running around?
(08:54:30) Platyna: Jaxad0127: Maybe you go look on that captcha?
(08:54:36) Platyna: turmfalke_: Yeah turmfalke_.
(08:54:48) Rotonen: thorbjorn: it means that if we break the trust or privacy (or the forks do), that action can be sued and the hosters are liable for the damages
(08:55:05) turmfalke_: Rotonen: and what would that gain us?
(08:55:05) Platyna: Huh?
(08:55:08) Platyna: Sue me for damage?
(08:55:10) Platyna: Not possible.
(08:55:12) thorbjorn: Rotonen: Right.
(08:55:20) Rotonen: thorbjorn: essentially a coditional imposition of a fine
(08:55:29) Platyna: Platinum rules clearly says that the host is not responsible for crap you keep on the server.

blackrazor wrote:She claims she gave file-move access to developers, only so they could push updates, and that the relocation of those files to another machine, to start another iteration of the game, was an abuse of the permissions she gave, and done without her authorization, without her consent, without her acceptance, without her permission.

She seemed quite unaware that they were the current project admins, permitted to act with the same authority that bjorn did of old. Perhaps Platyna had previously given out a more limited access independently of the chain of succession. It would certainly explain some of the confusion we've been seeing.

blackrazor wrote:[...]she claims, she was the top administrator, final arbiter, and data-file owner of the project, by that point in time.

This was already refuted. For your convenience:

Freeyorp101 wrote:The earliest of her claims of exclusive ownership I can find was on [2013-04-01], immediately preceding themanaworld.net starting up in [2013-04-02], after you raised the issue.

Fortunately, in the same post she also describes her rationale for her claiming ownership. She was under the impression she was left as sole admin.

The main point seems to be that Platyna claims exclusive ownership of TMW files. As she explains in that post:
Platyna wrote:This is not true. You both left five years ago. TMW was managed exclusively by me. Frost, Jenalya and o11c were given access to these files, but I never relieved my control over them, and they never were project admins. I have also never allowed to copy the files.

These files belongs to me, as I have took over the project after you both left and I am the original service provider, you and Elven just allowed to steal them by people who never were project admins at all. I am currenty the only project admin of TMW, not you Bjorn and not you Elven, as you have resigned from the position five years ago (you were head of development team anyway, not the game admins, on your own request BTW).

When I was given these files by Ultramichy we had 5 players online and very little data. Basically all of work on the game server was done by me or by my request. These files therefore belongs to me and I did not give you the permission to use it. So hand me the copy and remove all other copies.
Lets examine this in detail.

For the first paragraph, it was Platyna that left nearly 5 years ago, on [2008-11-01], shortly after I joined, not Elven or bjorn. Everyone was under the impression she'd quit as moderator too, which led to her global moderator permissions being removed along with maci's during some cleanup not long afterwards, and the massive conflict beginning in late april 2009 when she noticed, involved threats to resign as host that came very close to going through on [2009-05-06], penultimately ended up with conflict on IRC I posted above, and ultimately ended with the manasource split when it became clear the arguments still weren't going to end.
The manasource split happened at 2009-10-24. Even then bjorn was still around, and both Elven and bjorn have always been responsive when they're needed. TMW was managed by Jaxad then me then Frost then finally the current arrangement, as outlined above. When Platyna did try to manage tmwAthena again, in [2012-11-17], she attempted to do so via the controller that had not worked for nearly three years:
gm.log.2012-11 wrote:[2012-11-17 16:56:12] 009-1.gat(58,41) Platyna(2004123) : @broadcast In like 20 minutes I i will try to restart the server for the event. I may break it as someone broke the control scripts I have written...
The first argument in the second paragraph is entirely logical. It seems Platyna assumed control as she indeed wasn't aware of the chain of succession of project admins, so it isn't too hard to see why she might have thought she had exclusive ownership.

I don't see the second argument in the third paragraph as having any weight, though. Ownership simply does not work that way. In any case according to the commit history: Platyna hadn't joined the project yet in 2004; there wasn't anything from Platyna in 2005; Platyna did a lot in 2006 though Elven was more active; Crush was by far the most active in 2007; and Jaxad and Fate were both the most active in 2008. There doesn't seem to be anything from Platyna after 2008.

Therefore, as there was indeed a proper chain of succession of project admins, Platyna's arguments for claiming exclusive ownership are invalid. This is not because of malign intent; she simply did not seem to be aware of the chain of succession, and with everything else that was going on in her life, this is quite understandable.

I respectfully ask that you either concede the point, or provide an argument that does not revolve around ad hominem against TMWC due to perceived secrecy, as that has nothing to do with Platyna's claim to ownership. There is no hurry. After all, I took three months of research before I presented my findings. I'm even happy to help research events further if it helps bring the truth to light. But adversarial exploration of TMW's history cannot progress while we have a schrodinger's argument where a central point is both accepted and refuted at the same time.

---Freeyorp

Posted: **27 Jun 2013, 03:50**

I think everyone agrees TMW didn't start on Platinum. The server data was copied from prior hosts to Platinum. Copyright ownership is not transferred along with file data, so unless all previous owners explicitly handed over full ownership of the data (they didn't), then there's no point in even arguing about what happened later. Just as Platinum doesn't own the copyright to the TMW source code and the Linux kernel, Platinum doesn't own the server data just because the files exist on Platinum.

I'd be willing to argue, and in fact I have argued, that Platyna is at least morally part owner of the data based on her role in the project and the sheer amount of growth that occurred with her help, but I don't understand this perspective where something that was completely not hers became completely hers.

[Edit]

Platyna hasn't even logged in since last week. We should probably slow down the flame war so she can have time to catch up on all the juicy exchanges happening on her behalf

Posted: **27 Jun 2013, 21:07**

Freeyorp101 wrote: I was under the impression her position as lead moderator was revoked as one of the first actions of the newly formed TMWC. Pragmatically, I suspect there will be far more GM resignations than just [MasterKenobi] if Platyna comes back a third time, as none of them seem to want to even consider working beneath her again. You make a logically sound point, though; I'll investigate the specific events around that.

Yes, but the who's the TMWC? None of the people in it had the right to revoke her position.
I'm just gonna make my own committee and start making rules for the game. What's the prerequisites to make your own committee? It needs a dev in it? A GM? Both? Okay.

Posted: **27 Jun 2013, 21:09**

.:WildX:. wrote:
Freeyorp101 wrote: I was under the impression her position as lead moderator was revoked as one of the first actions of the newly formed TMWC. Pragmatically, I suspect there will be far more GM resignations than just [MasterKenobi] if Platyna comes back a third time, as none of them seem to want to even consider working beneath her again. You make a logically sound point, though; I'll investigate the specific events around that.
Yes, but the who's the TMWC? None of the people in it had the right to revoke her position.
I'm just gonna make my own committee and start making rules for the game. What's the prerequisites to make your own committee? It needs a dev in it? A GM? Both? Okay.

TMWC runs the server.

Posted: **27 Jun 2013, 21:29**

Jaxad0127 wrote:
.:WildX:. wrote:
Freeyorp101 wrote: I was under the impression her position as lead moderator was revoked as one of the first actions of the newly formed TMWC. Pragmatically, I suspect there will be far more GM resignations than just [MasterKenobi] if Platyna comes back a third time, as none of them seem to want to even consider working beneath her again. You make a logically sound point, though; I'll investigate the specific events around that.
Yes, but the who's the TMWC? None of the people in it had the right to revoke her position.
I'm just gonna make my own committee and start making rules for the game. What's the prerequisites to make your own committee? It needs a dev in it? A GM? Both? Okay.
TMWC runs the server.

Do we have a definition of what a GM exactly is? Because when I voted for various GMs I wasn't aware that they would have this kind of decision making power over the game, maybe it should have been stated somewhere, because I thought they could only enforce the rules, but it seems they have far greater influence than that.
And what about devs? People who contribute to the game should be aware of what becoming a developer means here.
If you don't count devs and GMs, according to this list, the only people left in the TMWC are all the people that were still under Platyna's "control" (according to what she says, as she was still in power) when they formed the Committee, which means they had no right, but only the possibility to do it (which does not equal "right" IMO).

Posted: **28 Jun 2013, 14:29**

.:WildX:. wrote: Yes, but the who's the TMWC? None of the people in it had the right to revoke her position.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_makes_right

.:WildX:. wrote:I'm just gonna make my own committee and start making rules for the game. What's the prerequisites to make your own committee? It needs a dev in it? A GM? Both? Okay.

At a minimum, what you need is:

1) File move access, so you can relocate the playersave data to your server.

2) To convince Elvenprogrammer to point his domain "themanaworld.org" to your server.

Freeyorp101 wrote:I respectfully ask that you either concede the point, or provide an argument that does not revolve around ad hominem against TMWC due to perceived secrecy, as that has nothing to do with Platyna's claim to ownership. There is no hurry. After all, I took three months of research before I presented my findings. I'm even happy to help research events further if it helps bring the truth to light. But adversarial exploration of TMW's history cannot progress while we have a schrodinger's argument where a central point is both accepted and refuted at the same time.

There is nothing to concede. I've already told you that from a legal perspective, I am more comfortable with actual legal documentation, notarized contracts, or court rulings. For me, IRC logs and forum posts provide fascinating historical tidbits, but nothing of legal importance, unless a court rules it so. The only thing of legal relevance (to the best of my knowledge) just prior to the move, was that the data-files resided on Platyna's computer (Platinum) and she stated later (but within a reasonable 30 day timeframe) that she considered them her property. You can spin it any way you want, but in my opinion, at that point, in the absence of a contract or other legal documents to prove otherwise, you would need to obtain a court ruling in order to legally move the data-files off of her property (the computer Platinum). This is why hosting contracts exist, and one should have been drafted at the appropriate time.

There is no ad hominem against the TMWC. They did the move in secret, and when asked about it later, the response was that it was necessary, because otherwise Platyna could have stopped it, and that would have endangered the game (in their opinion).

I am well aware, that the files used to be on Elvenprogrammer's and later on Ultramichy's computers, in the past. But those transfers were done voluntarily, and with Elven's and Ultramichy's permissions. It is up to Elven or Ultramichy to go to court and claim ownership still of these files, if they so desire, but until they do that, and until a court rules in their favor, it is not relevant, except as history.

An interesting hypothetical regarding ownership and legal liability. What if TMW project was currently being sued in court for tens of thousands of dollars, for copyright infringement on the original commercial Ragnarok server by Gravity (on which eAthena was based), or an EU (or class action) lawsuit regarding the improper cloning of the data and the moving of it outside of EU jurisdiction. In these cases, would the TMWC still claim ownership of the project? Would Elven? Or would we start seeing IRC logs and forum posts showing Platyna as the owner? This is why you need legal contracts, by the way, to remove all these sorts of ambiguities from your business relations; it's just the adult responsible thing to do, in a lawful civilized society.

Posted: **28 Jun 2013, 14:57**

Ownership doesn't transfer with file data. If you believe transferring the files to Platinum transferred ownership, then transferring them from Platinum should magically do the same thing, unless Platinum's magic only works one way. My understanding is magic ownership transfers prohibits such an operation, however.

It's hypocritical you push for such legal scrutiny for this situation, but none for the situation that made Platyna the "owner".

Also, the burden of proof lies with Platyna, not the TMWC. When she proves with absolute legal certainty she owns the data and no one else does, then an actual wrongdoing has occurred.

Posted: **28 Jun 2013, 15:04**

GARRETTtheGREAT wrote:Ownership doesn't transfer with file data. If you believe transferring the files to Platinum transferred ownership, then transferring them from Platinum should magically do the same thing, unless Platinum's magic only works one way. My understanding is magic ownership transfers prohibits such an operation, however.

It's ironic you push for such legal scrutiny for this situation, but none for the situation that made Platyna the "owner".

Like I said in my above post, the main difference is that the transfer from Elven and from Ultramichy was done with their permission. The transfer from Platyna was not. That's a big difference, and it forms the basis of my point, regarding this. It's the difference between you giving something away, and someone taking it from you.

EDIT (because for your edits): You don't need a contract for giving something away, although it is a good idea, just in case, since the giver could change their mind. If you read this whole thread, I have also criticized Platyna for not getting legal contracts in place, to protect both her and the data. However, I don't believe the burden of proof is on her, since she had the legal advantage of the data files already residing on her property (Platinum), which in and of itself, in the absence of a hosting contract or any contract claiming copyright of those files to another party, is a presumption of ownership. In that case, the burden of proof rests with the claimant, who is attempting to claim those data files for themselves, implicit with the right of relocating them to a new server.

Posted: **28 Jun 2013, 15:06**

blackrazor wrote:
GARRETTtheGREAT wrote:Ownership doesn't transfer with file data. If you believe transferring the files to Platinum transferred ownership, then transferring them from Platinum should magically do the same thing, unless Platinum's magic only works one way. My understanding is magic ownership transfers prohibits such an operation, however.

It's ironic you push for such legal scrutiny for this situation, but none for the situation that made Platyna the "owner".
Like I said in my above post, the main difference is that the transfer from Elven and from Ultramichy was done with their permission. The transfer from Platyna was not. That's a big difference, and it forms the basis of my point, regarding this. It's the difference between you giving something away, and someone taking it from you.

You can't steal something you own. You have to prove the TMWC didn't own the files before you can prove they stole them. You have to prove someone gave Platyna full ownership AND they gave up all rights of ownership or else the files are not fully the property of Platyna.

Posted: **28 Jun 2013, 15:17**

GARRETTtheGREAT wrote:
blackrazor wrote:
GARRETTtheGREAT wrote:Ownership doesn't transfer with file data. If you believe transferring the files to Platinum transferred ownership, then transferring them from Platinum should magically do the same thing, unless Platinum's magic only works one way. My understanding is magic ownership transfers prohibits such an operation, however.

It's ironic you push for such legal scrutiny for this situation, but none for the situation that made Platyna the "owner".
Like I said in my above post, the main difference is that the transfer from Elven and from Ultramichy was done with their permission. The transfer from Platyna was not. That's a big difference, and it forms the basis of my point, regarding this. It's the difference between you giving something away, and someone taking it from you.
You can't steal something you own. You have to prove the TMWC didn't own the files before you can prove they stole them. You have to prove someone gave Platyna full ownership AND they gave up all rights of ownership or else the files are not fully the property of Platyna.

See what I wrote above to explain this. We are posting / editing at the same time, so the wires are getting crossed, it seems.

Posted: **28 Jun 2013, 16:03**

I would like to point out this this project still belongs to Elven. Everyone (including Platyna) recognizes that. Why would the files belong to Platyna instead of Elven?

Posted: **28 Jun 2013, 16:33**

I think i get it now. Blackrazor is considering the Platinum server to be an authorized derivative work, for lack of a better term. Just as the TMWC doesn't own the data to other servers, you could say they don't own this data.

I strongly disagree as Platyna was an authorized agent acting on behalf of the owner. She was not creating her own data; she was creating data for Elven. If she started her own data from scratch, I would agree it is hers, but That isn't the case. Elven retaining the DNS administration and server access validates this; there is no reason he needed these privileges if he was not indeed the owner. Furthermore, no other server was started with Elven's original data. If Elven was seeding new servers with his data, there would be more servers with that data. Not even the test server uses the data, so it is clear to me that the Platinum server was a continuation of Elven's work, not a derivative. The files were always in the possession of Elven or an agent on his behalf, so the data remains his.

Posted: **28 Jun 2013, 18:30**

This makes incredible sense to me. In the business world this is how data is handled, many times without legal contracts and paperwork. Stewardship of someone else's data does not mean ownership.

A simple E-Mail or forum post by Elven confirming this is the case and TMWC are authorized to use his data could clear this up pretty promptly, I think. One could also easily argue that he's given implicit permission by changing the DNS knowing the server would be administered by different people.

Posted: **28 Jun 2013, 19:45**

In the business world, you would have a contract, whether on paper, or a click-though EULA or TOS. Also, most not-for-profit organizations have a constitution that defines their assets and rules of succession.

I absolutely agree that Elvenprogrammer owns the domain name "themanaworld.org". Note, that there is a contract or legal document to prove that.

Everything else should be up to the courts. You all make good points on the details, but it should be for a judge to decide in a court of law, and not any one of us. This is what the law is for, to settle property disputes (among other things). In the interim, the usual default is for the property to be presumed owned by the person on whose property (computer) it resided, before the relocation, if they claim it as theirs, in the absence of contracts (hosting or copyright) that state otherwise. Basically, the last person on whose property it resided without dispute, which would be Platyna.

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