The Mana World Forums

Well BlackRazor I will respond one more time, glad to see your last few posts didn't include things like "I sense" or "I felt" like your earlier ones did. I went back and counted you have made over 60 posts on this topic alone. Makes me wonder, why so focused on this topic when frankly, you have no idea what happened behind closed doors.

Why would you even care?

I came up with three options here, 1) your a troll (and i listed that first because that's what I believe you are. 2) You enjoy conflict and enjoy keeping it going or 3) This whole server move has left you sleepless and like the lone ranger you have decided to make it your life's focus (i know i laughed when i wrote that also).

Freeyorp101 and others have tried to set the record straight, and you have dismissed them abruptly.

So its a stale mate! he said, she said, they said.

If you truly care about the game, why not try and help move it forward instead of sucking the life out of it! Just a thought.

prsm wrote:Well BlackRazor I will respond one more time, glad to see your last few posts didn't include things like "I sense" or "I felt" like your earlier ones did. I went back and counted you have made over 60 posts on this topic alone. Makes me wonder, why so focused on this topic when frankly, you have no idea what happened behind closed doors.

Why would you even care?

I came up with three options here, 1) your a troll (and i listed that first because that's what I believe you are. 2) You enjoy conflict and enjoy keeping it going or 3) This whole server move has left you sleepless and like the lone ranger you have decided to make it your life's focus (i know i laughed when i wrote that also).

Freeyorp101 and others have tried to set the record straight, and you have dismissed them abruptly.

So its a stale mate! he said, she said, they said.

If you truly care about the game, why not try and help move it forward instead of sucking the life out of it! Just a thought.

Take a second look at the title of this thread.

Is that an excuse for lack of substance?

blackrazor wrote:Everything else should be up to the courts

Firstly, the cost is asymptotically higher than the benefit no matter who wins. Who's paying for the thousands of dollars of up-front costs for a case that will probably never go to court?

Secondly, the "possession is 9/10ths of the law" rule only holds true if the testimony is equal. You have many corroborating witnesses who will testify that Elven is the original creator of the files, making him the default copyright holder, and that he never explicitly assigned another owner. Furthermore, there's no evidence to the contrary.

Ownership of copyright initially belongs to the author or authors of the work. [1]

Thirdly, I have no idea where you're getting this "ownership defaults to the last owner before relocation" rule. Source?

Fourthly, ownership CANNOT be transferred without expressed WRITTEN permission.

An assignment is not valid unless it is in writing and is signed by the owner of the rights conveyed or the owner's authorized agent. [1]

Fifthly, your insistence on making this a legal battle has absolutely drained all of the compassion I felt for Platyna because of how poorly the situation was handled, which is unfortunate for Platyna because she hasn't said anything to this effect in a long time. I guarantee I'm not the only person feeling this way.

Sixthly, Chrome no longer recognizes -ly suffixes after "fifthly".

Sources:
[1] http://corporate.findlaw.com/intellectu ... ights.html

Garret, I don't think Elven can own it as an original work either, since he did not invent eAthena. eAthena, the server under which this game runs was designed from something originally made by Gravity of South Korea for their Ragnarok MMO. The source code got leaked or stolen from them, and a few quality emulators were developed, based on that engine, originally to make illegal shards for people to play with their own rules, and for free, on private Ragnarok shards. The eAthena was one of those groups, and the longest lasting. http://eathena.ws/forum/

So if you want to talk copyright, it gets very murky, perhaps. In any case, I personally believe the presumption of ownership is based more on where it resided, on whose property, undisputed, with no contractual claims otherwise. Things like testimonies and logs and forum posts are for a judge to decide. Lawyers may be expensive, but that is one of the costs of doing business when there is a property dispute; and the claimants could look for a pro-bono lawyer, or ask for donations, or crowdfund. But saying that proper lawyer protection and procedure is too expensive, so we will just take our own legal advice instead, is not a prudent or responsible move. Note that even though I have an opinion on this, I am the first to advise that I am not a lawyer, and that a lawyer's professional services are required for this.

EDIT (because we seem to be adding stuff at the same time, so I will respond to your additional points):

My claim of "presumption of ownership is based more on where it resided, on whose property, undisputed, with no contractual claims otherwise."

is based on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession ... of_the_law

Note that I am not a lawyer, neither are you, and my main suggestion was to let the professional lawyers handle this property dispute.

===

As for whether you feel compassion more or less for Platyna, based on what I write, that is just nonsensical. I don't represent her, she has no control or influence over what I write. Take it out on me, if you must, not her.

===

One other point, getting angry at me (or Platyna, or anyone else), because I recommend getting professional legal help for a property dispute is a classic case of shooting the messenger. That is like you getting angry at me if you own a house, and water is pouring in when it rains, and I recommend you get a professional roofer, but you cannot afford one so you are angry at me?

blackrazor wrote:So if you want to talk copyright, it gets very murky, perhaps.

Not really murky. As Freeyorp pointed out, the data files did not originate with Platyna. If hosting the project assigned ownership to her, then previous hosting providers have the same rights.

I personally believe the presumption of ownership is based more on where it resided, on whose property, undisputed, with no contractual claims otherwise.

That's a really bizarre concept of ownership. I'm glad you aren't my landlord.

I am the first to advise that I am not a lawyer, and that a lawyer's professional services are required for this.

Your loud ignorance of property and contract law doesn't mean someone else must hire a lawyer to educate you.
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
"What can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."


All that aside, I hope you can clarify something.
Do you consent to themanaworld.org holding data about your characters, forum accounts, etc?

blackrazor wrote:Garret, I don't think Elven can own it as an original work either, since he did not invent eAthena.

The output of a program is independent of the program itself. If you write a book using Microsoft Word, Microsoft does not own it.

blackrazor wrote:eAthena, the server under which this game runs was originally made by Gravity of South Korea for their Ragnarok MMO. The source code got leaked or stolen from them, and a few quality emulators were developed, based on that engine, originally to make illegal shards for people to play with their own rules, and for free, on private Ragnarok shards. The eAthena was one of those groups, and the longest lasting. http://eathena.ws/forum/

This is irrelevant. Assuming the TMW fork of eAthena is in violation of some sort of law, that would be a separate issue.

blackrazor wrote:So if you want to talk copyright, it gets very murky, perhaps. In any case, I personally believe the presumption of ownership is based more on where it resided, on whose property, undisputed, with no contractual claims otherwise.

Your personal opinion doesn't mean much compared to the reputable source I cited to the contrary. Unless you have a better source of information than I, it would be beneficial for everyone involved for you to not say anything at all.

blackrazor wrote:Things like testimonies and logs and forum posts are for a judge to decide. Lawyers may be expensive, but that is one of the costs of doing business when there is a property dispute; and the claimants could look for a pro-bono lawyer, or ask for donations, or crowdfund. But saying that proper lawyer protection and procedure is too expensive, so we will just take our own legal advice instead, is not a prudent or responsible move. Note that even though I have an opinion on this, I am the first to advise that I am not a lawyer, and that a lawyer's professional services are required for this.

I never said proper lawyer protection and procedure is too expensive, I said the cost outweighs the benefit. In fact, I can't think of a single benefit other than saving a handful of people ten minutes a day to come up with responses to the ridiculous claims being made here.

You saying that a legal dispute is necessary when it is not, is not a prudent or responsible move. You saying a not-for-profit open source community should spend a hundred years worth of operating expenses on a lawyer is not a prudent or responsible move. And, if you aren't a lawyer, why should anyone take your legal advice over my advice, which equally lacks qualification?

blackrazor wrote:As for whether you feel compassion more or less for Platyna, based on what I write, that is just nonsensical. I don't represent her, she has no control or influence over what I write. Take it out on me, if you must, not her.

If I were you, I would question the wisdom in embittering Platyna's opponents against her supporters.

blackrazor wrote:One other point, getting angry at me (or Platyna, or anyone else), because I recommend getting professional legal help for a property dispute is a classic case of shooting the messenger. That is like you getting angry at me if you own a house, and water is pouring in when it rains, and I recommend you get a professional roofer, but you cannot afford one so you are angry at me?

This is a classic case of a false analogy. Your advice is bad, so why would anyone listen?

I've created a better analogy for you:

blackrazor wrote:That is like you getting angry at me if you own a house, and your neighbor doesn't like your roof, and I recommend you get a professional roofer, but you cannot afford one so you are angry at me?

I'm analogously angry at you because your solution fixes a problem that has little to do with me. If the neighbor doesn't like the roof, the neighbor can either ignore it, or try to take some measure to get me to change my roof, but it's counterproductive for me to preemptively change my roof to suit the neighbor. Why don't you go talk to the neighbor about her legal strategy for getting my roof changed? I'm sure it's really high up on her list of things to do right now, since she's been here every day complaining about my roof.

Frost wrote:

blackrazor wrote:So if you want to talk copyright, it gets very murky, perhaps.

Not really murky. As Freeyorp pointed out, the data files did not originate with Platyna. If hosting the project assigned ownership to her, then previous hosting providers have the same rights.

Except she claims she was more than a host. And all the previous transfers before Platyna were voluntary. Had Platyna voluntarily agreed with the data relocation, it would have been a different story entirely.

Frost wrote:

I personally believe the presumption of ownership is based more on where it resided, on whose property, undisputed, with no contractual claims otherwise.

That's a really bizarre concept of ownership. I'm glad you aren't my landlord.

"no contractual claims otherwise" If you are a tenant, with a tenant / landlord contract, there are contractual claims otherwise, in the contract, that state the tenant owns his property. I'm glad you aren't my lawyer.

Frost wrote:

I am the first to advise that I am not a lawyer, and that a lawyer's professional services are required for this.

Your loud ignorance of property and contract law doesn't mean someone else must hire a lawyer to educate you.
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
"What can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."

I am recommending that you hire the services of a lawyer to help advise you on your property dispute, and to litigate on your behalf, if necessary. Not for my education. You think you are more educated in law than a professional lawyer, says more about you than it does about me.

Frost wrote: All that aside, I hope you can clarify something.
Do you consent to themanaworld.org holding data about your characters, forum accounts, etc?

We've already been through this. I consider it a threat from you to keep asking me this. You are abusing your position to keep doing it, after I have already communicated with you. I have broken no rules, and you are engaging in no enforcement action, so you have no right to keep asking me this. If ever I need to clarify my consent, in accordance with the game's rules, I already know how to do so. You have no right to select players with whom you strongly dislike or disagree, and to check with them, on that basis, if they still consent to their data being held.

blackrazor wrote:You have no right to select players with whom you strongly dislike or disagree, and to check with them, on that basis, if they still consent to their data being held.

Source? Or, is this opinion again? It is not prudent or responsible of you to keep misrepresenting your opinion as fact.

GARRETTtheGREAT wrote:

blackrazor wrote:Garret, I don't think Elven can own it as an original work either, since he did not invent eAthena.

The output of a program is independent of the program itself. If you write a book using Microsoft Word, Microsoft does not own it.

That depends on the license. With GPL, sure. With Google output, or with Gravity's Ragnarok engine ... not so much. eAthena's license, I am not sure.

GARRETTtheGREAT wrote:

blackrazor wrote:eAthena, the server under which this game runs was originally made by Gravity of South Korea for their Ragnarok MMO. The source code got leaked or stolen from them, and a few quality emulators were developed, based on that engine, originally to make illegal shards for people to play with their own rules, and for free, on private Ragnarok shards. The eAthena was one of those groups, and the longest lasting. http://eathena.ws/forum/

This is irrelevant. Assuming the TMW fork of eAthena is in violation of some sort of law, that would be a separate issue.

When discussing copyright claims, where some software from which eAthena derives may not offer the same freedoms on data copyright as given by GPL, it is related. Heck, eAthena, or its derivatives may not even qualify for a GPL license, based on where the original code derives, from the commerical copyrighted work of Gravity of South Korea. I know the TMW project has rejected artwork for similar reasons, because they derived from commercial or non-GPL copyrighted works. What about the server software?

GARRETTtheGREAT wrote:

blackrazor wrote:So if you want to talk copyright, it gets very murky, perhaps. In any case, I personally believe the presumption of ownership is based more on where it resided, on whose property, undisputed, with no contractual claims otherwise.

Your personal opinion doesn't mean much compared to the reputable source I cited to the contrary. Unless you have a better source of information than I, it would be beneficial for everyone involved for you to not say anything at all.

Your (or my) ability to quote sources, reputable or not, does not a substitute for proper legal advice make. I won't perform surgery based on advice from the web, nor handle a property dispute that way, either. Sure, the web is a great starting point for basic information, or to have a discussion, but there comes a time to bring in a professional for a professional problem, and that is neither you nor I. For you to claim that a professional would offer equivalent insight than your reputable quotes is not sensible, in my opinion.

GARRETTtheGREAT wrote:

blackrazor wrote:Things like testimonies and logs and forum posts are for a judge to decide. Lawyers may be expensive, but that is one of the costs of doing business when there is a property dispute; and the claimants could look for a pro-bono lawyer, or ask for donations, or crowdfund. But saying that proper lawyer protection and procedure is too expensive, so we will just take our own legal advice instead, is not a prudent or responsible move. Note that even though I have an opinion on this, I am the first to advise that I am not a lawyer, and that a lawyer's professional services are required for this.

I never said proper lawyer protection and procedure is too expensive, I said the cost outweighs the benefit. In fact, I can't think of a single benefit other than saving a handful of people ten minutes a day to come up with responses to the ridiculous claims being made here.

You saying that a legal dispute is necessary when it is not, is not a prudent or responsible move. You saying a not-for-profit open source community should spend a hundred years worth of operating expenses on a lawyer is not a prudent or responsible move. And, if you aren't a lawyer, why should anyone take your legal advice over my advice, which equally lacks qualification?

I know just enough to know that you need a professional lawyer for a property dispute. You appear to know even less.

GARRETTtheGREAT wrote:

blackrazor wrote:As for whether you feel compassion more or less for Platyna, based on what I write, that is just nonsensical. I don't represent her, she has no control or influence over what I write. Take it out on me, if you must, not her.

If I were you, I would question the wisdom in embittering Platyna's opponents against her supporters.

If I were you, I would question the wisdom in embittering yourself over basic advice to consult a lawyer regarding a property dispute.

GARRETTtheGREAT wrote:

blackrazor wrote:One other point, getting angry at me (or Platyna, or anyone else), because I recommend getting professional legal help for a property dispute is a classic case of shooting the messenger. That is like you getting angry at me if you own a house, and water is pouring in when it rains, and I recommend you get a professional roofer, but you cannot afford one so you are angry at me?

This is a classic case of a false analogy. Your advice is bad, so why would anyone listen?

I've created a better analogy for you:

blackrazor wrote:That is like you getting angry at me if you own a house, and your neighbor doesn't like your roof, and I recommend you get a professional roofer, but you cannot afford one so you are angry at me?

I'm analogously angry at you because your solution fixes a problem that has little to do with me. If the neighbor doesn't like the roof, the neighbor can either ignore it, or try to take some measure to get me to change my roof, but it's counterproductive for me to preemptively change my roof to suit the neighbor. Why don't you go talk to the neighbor about her legal strategy for getting my roof changed? I'm sure it's really high up on her list of things to do right now, since she's been here every day complaining about my roof.

I liked my analogy better. There is a real property dispute, therefore the roof is really leaking. I've lived in this house since 2007, so I care about the outcome. Sorry if that offends you in some way.

blackrazor wrote:

Frost wrote:

I am the first to advise that I am not a lawyer, and that a lawyer's professional services are required for this.

Your loud ignorance of property and contract law doesn't mean someone else must hire a lawyer to educate you.
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
"What can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."

I am recommending that you hire the services of a lawyer to help advise you on your property dispute, and to litigate on your behalf, if necessary. Not for my education. You think you are more educated in law than a professional lawyer, says more about you than it does about me.

When has Frost done that? If you are implying that one thing Frost has said goes the opposite of what a layer has said, please quote Frost and link to where that layer has said it.

As for ownership, when did Elven transfer it to Platyna? Please show legal documentation for that.

GARRETTtheGREAT wrote:

blackrazor wrote:You have no right to select players with whom you strongly dislike or disagree, and to check with them, on that basis, if they still consent to their data being held.

Source? Or, is this opinion again? It is not prudent or responsible of you to keep misrepresenting your opinion as fact.

It's not in the game rules for Frost to do this. The source is the game rules. There is no place in the rules where this power is given. I cannot quote a rule that isn't there, or maybe you would like to try? I'm sure if he did this to other players, they would complain, and if they checked the rules, they would see it wasn't in there, either.

Plus, this has come up before, so he already knows how this makes me feel. Even Freeyorp acknowledged that this could be interpreted as a threat, the last time Frost did it to me.

http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 2&start=15

Freeyorp101 wrote:The posts in question are ambiguous, but I do see how they could be read as threats.

Jaxad0127 wrote:

blackrazor wrote:

Frost wrote:Blackrazor: "I am the first to advise that I am not a lawyer, and that a lawyer's professional services are required for this."
Your loud ignorance of property and contract law doesn't mean someone else must hire a lawyer to educate you.
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
"What can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."

I am recommending that you hire the services of a lawyer to help advise you on your property dispute, and to litigate on your behalf, if necessary. Not for my education. You think you are more educated in law than a professional lawyer, says more about you than it does about me.

When has Frost done that? If you are implying that one thing Frost has said goes the opposite of what a layer has said, please quote Frost and link to where that layer has said it.

What kind of layer? A bricklayer? A p-layer? A triple chocolate frosted layer cake, perhaps?

A lawyer hasn't said anything, because no claimant has bothered to hire one for this property dispute, so there is no way to tell.

Jaxad0127 wrote:As for ownership, when did Elven transfer it to Platyna? Please show legal documentation for that.

You are asking the wrong person for legal documentation. I was asking, precisely because I have none in my possession, and have seen none, regarding this property dispute. But at least the transfers from Elven to Ultramichy, and from Ultramichy to Platyna, were voluntary, and consented to by both parties. Therefore, there was no property dispute regarding them. Regarding ownership, as you implied, if there is no contract, no legal documentation, then it becomes a question for the courts to decide, not me or you.

blackrazor wrote:That depends on the license. With GPL, sure. With Google output, or with Gravity's Ragnarok engine ... not so much. eAthena's license, I am not sure.

When discussing copyright claims, where some software from which eAthena derives may not offer the same freedoms on data copyright as given by GPL, it is related. Heck, eAthena, or its derivatives may not even qualify for a GPL license, based on where the original code derives, from the commerical copyrighted work of Gravity of South Korea. I know the TMW project has rejected artwork for similar reasons, because they derived from commercial or non-GPL copyrighted works. What about the server software?

Perhaps we should pre-emptively sue eAthena and RO for ownership of the data after we're done with Platinum?

blackrazor wrote:Your (or my) ability to quote sources, reputable or not, does not a substitute for proper legal advice make. I won't perform surgery based on advice from the web, nor handle a property dispute that way, either. Sure, the web is a great starting point for basic information, or to have a discussion, but there comes a time to bring in a professional for a professional problem, and that is neither you nor I. For you to claim that a professional would offer equivalent insight than your reputable quotes is not sensible, in my opinion.

It helps to do a little research before seeking professional help. I don't make a habit of bringing my car to the mechanic on a daily basis because an ignorant person made a little fuss about it.

blackrazor wrote:I know just enough to know that you need a professional lawyer for a property dispute. You appear to know even less.

I know it takes 2 people to dispute, and there's only one side to this dispute right now. Perhaps you should let the other party decide if such a dispute is necessary?

blackrazor wrote:If I were you, I would question the wisdom in embittering yourself over basic advice to consult a lawyer regarding a property dispute.

I have 3 problems with this sentence:
1. Your claim that I'm "embittered" at all by nonsensical arguments
2. Your claim that what you give is advice
3. Your claim that there is a dispute at all

blackrazor wrote:I liked my analogy better. There is a real property dispute, therefore the roof is really leaking. I've lived in this house since 2007, so I care about the outcome. Sorry if that offends you in some way.

If you care about the outcome, why can't you be bothered to do any research into factual law and not your opinion of the law? It's pretty obvious your opinion of the situation isn't very highly regarded, but yet you do nothing but recite the same lines over and over again that haven't garnered even the slightest support in a thread of over 300 posts. Why don't you start looking for a list of pro-bono lawyers that might be interested, raise some money, or post the issue on a legal forum for advice? I'm not a lawyer, but I can see that whatever you're trying to accomplish has nothing to do with what you're stating your goals are.

blackrazor wrote:Plus, this has come up before, so he already knows how this makes me feel. Even Freeyorp acknowledged that this could be interpreted as a threat, the last time Frost did it to me.

Have you tried suing Frost? Perhaps the lawyer will give you a discount since you'll be suing so many people.

blackrazor wrote:A lawyer hasn't said anything, because no claimant has bothered to hire one for this property dispute, so there is no way to tell.

If there's no claimant and no claim, why hire a lawyer?

blackrazor wrote:You are asking the wrong person for legal documentation.

I think we all already knew this from previous conversations we've had involving you.

I have to ask, blackrazor, if you really care so much, why do you intentionally post somewhere your information will not be taken seriously (ie, this thread) instead of somewhere it could be considered more seriously (ie, http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewforum.php?f=4). If you really care so much, why do you not question everyone's hostility towards you?

Normally, when someone is rebuffed by a group they care about, they would ask why and show some remorse that they haven't been taken seriously. You seem more interested in coming up with witty replies than either of these things.