The Mana World Forums

Dave wrote: That said and very possibly completely off-topic, I must admit that I always felt the decision to continue using/developing the eAthena server and the apparent delay (abandonment?) of the idea to transition to an ‘action-based’ system, more closely related to that of Secret of Mana, was preventing the game from fulfilling its true potential; inhibiting the realization of the original vision and intent upon which the project was apparently founded. I realize that may be an egregious oversimplification, or even a total misunderstanding of the facts, surrounding various design and technical decisions. I promise that I intend no offense by expressing that opinion. To put it simply, ‘TMW-eA’ always seemed to me like a crutch in dire need of kicking.

1. ManaServ was "cleaner" than TMWA was before I started working on TMWA, and still is in many ways. Of course, that's largely tied to #2.
2. ManaServ only supports a small subset of the features that we use in TMWA.
3. ManaServ does not really match what we are looking for in a game (I know, they've said the same about TMWA).

blackrazor wrote: To get a view of what a world with just Manaserv, Bjorn, and Elven would look like (without Platyna and an eAthena live server), head on over to Bjorn's Source of Tales webpage:

http://www.sourceoftales.org/news.html

It used to be called Lurking Patrol Comrades, and it won the Liberated Pixel Cup! But it's kind of dead. No community. No forums. No discussions such as these.

o11c wrote: At the risk of turning this flamewar into a productive discussion:

There are three issues in choosing between the servers, in order of increasing importance to me:

1. ManaServ was "cleaner" than TMWA was before I started working on TMWA, and still is in many ways. Of course, that's largely tied to #2.
2. ManaServ only supports a small subset of the features that we use in TMWA.
3. ManaServ does not really match what we are looking for in a game (I know, they've said the same about TMWA).

Point 3 is really huge. Points 1 and 2 can be addressed by changing the code, but ManaServ doesn't even support the *paradigm*. It would be a completely different game, it would not be TMW at all. And all of our *existing* content would have to be thrown away. I know I despair of ever fixing balance without some sort of wipe, but it is possible that we can do *something* (or more likely just procrastinate and never achieve balance).

MadCamel wrote:Awesome to hear SoT is still under active development. I've played it and it's very polished; I think with the right marketing it will eventually develop it's own community. Hopefully as not as weird as this one

blackrazor wrote:Personally, I'd want to see Madcamel and Crush do it;

Crush wrote:

blackrazor wrote:Personally, I'd want to see Madcamel and Crush do it;

How much would you pay me for the job?

Crush wrote:

blackrazor wrote:Personally, I'd want to see Madcamel and Crush do it;

How much would you pay me for the job?

Nard wrote:

Crush wrote:[...] When you want influence, you have to earn it.

You think you can do better than the existing TMWC members? Then do better. Acquire some skills which are needed for the development or maintainance of TMW, volunteer, and show the other TMWC members how they should do it.

This is absolutely false. Many contributors acquired knowledge and volunteered without gaining any influence. Many among them were even discouraged by the attitude of a few existing pseudo leaders who believe that their opinion is of higher importance than the one of the smallest player and are deaf, thus dumb. This already existed when TMW was on Platinum, and apparently, they only got worse since the move, since I never saw so many high contributors of any kind (devs, admins, GMs) leave in a so short period. If this fact doesn't make TMWC members question themselves, then the project and the game have no future.

Now I will not thank Frost and Jenalya for their work here because I already did it on in public and in private many occasions. I will just tell my anger to them because they are leaving barely only 10 months after taking a decision that already put a mess in player and contributors "community", I think this is an irresponsible attitude. Note that I think the same about some active supporters of the move that have already left whether they are GMs or just wiki admin. And more when they leave the game and the project submitted to the actions of some persons who have neither the skills, the imagination nor the intelligence to lead this project even if they are able to perform administration tasks; I am not speaking about wushin or Tux... The contributors who do only what they want and take no care of the general interest of the project have to be fired . Frost and Jenalya have to stay, be consistent with their past decision and do the job they wanted to do.
I am glad trhat Freeyorp comes back as an admin but my opinion is that TMW needs Freeyorp and Frost, not or.

TMWC shows now it's lack of efficiency, just as it did in the past (and GHP as well). This project doesn't need a new administrator, even if a new one can lighten the boring tasks, this project needs project leader (s). And a project leader is definitely not a coder nor necessarily an administrator. A project leader has to be aware of computer and development things, but also of project management, communication, advertizing, law, human relations... he or they also have to be able to take decisions when conflicts occur, including firing an admin.

Frost, Jenalya if you leave now, the balance is broken, and it sounds like the beginning of the end.

My TMWC (let me dream a bit):
Frost: Project leader.
Jenalya+wushin: content lead
Tux: Mapping lead
4144: server and client development; general game/player interface
MadCamel: security
Crush, Fother: Graphic leaders (doesn't mean they do all the Job)
Forum: Crush, Frost
web site:? wiki:Freeyorp?
V0id, Freeyorp, Platyna (yes!),(optional: cody (?)) (maybe bertram, bjorn, elven if they still have an interest and are active): advisors (have right to vote).
One GM representant, one player representant.
and that's all. Other people may be developers or even admins, It doesn't mean that they are able to manage a project.

.:WildX:. wrote:So 2011 was kind of the "golden age" of TMW...

melkior wrote:I'm not too happy about that fight either, nor am I impressed with how TMWC functions, to be honest. I think it could do a lot better and in many areas it leaves a lot to be desired.

My time here also predates TMWC. But I've also seen the internal discussions of the ex-GHP (thanks to my position as a member of TMWC) and I can tell you that Platyna's appearances are not pretty.

I can see other things too. I can take a step back and see that TMWC is trying, where Platyna didn't. I know, I know, good intentions and roads to Hell. But an organisation like this is going to make a lot of fumbles. It's still new, it's trying to run a project that was never really a democracy, and everyone is used to not having a democracy. I think it'll take time and hopefully it'll improve.

Maybe TMWC will be replaced by something else, maybe it won't. I do hope that whatever happens will be for the better of the game.

My reply to Platyna was my personal reply, it had nothing to do with TMWC. Maybe it's my mistake that I don't have two forum accounts, one for my personal posts, I apologise for that. I was merely talking about my personal interactions here.

I don't really care whether TMWC stays or falls. I care about the game and its players. Sometimes, feedback like yours leaves me jaded about trying to fight for the players, but I bounce back eventually. I think we would all do better if the players showed more interest, but no one really cares about how the game is run, as long as it is run.

I'm sorry if my post in any way offended you or made you angry, blackrazor, but like I said, I was talking to Platyna, as melkior, not TMWC. Maybe it should've been a PM... Anyway, thank you for caring enough to offer critique.

Crush wrote:

MadCamel wrote:Awesome to hear SoT is still under active development. I've played it and it's very polished; I think with the right marketing it will eventually develop it's own community. Hopefully as not as weird as this one :lol:

That's the problem. Popularity = quality * marketing. The people at Manasource created a really nice product, but they suck at marketing it. Marketing would also include to cater to the needs of the community, like having a forum. But unfortunately the Manasource team is quite anti-forum.

There are also lots of other things you need to do to market an independent game nowadays, but TMW is neglecting those just as much :)