The Mana World Forums

I also think items you pay for would create a certain split that I hate seeing in other MMORPGs. I do think, however, that when somebody makes an item, they should get the first copy of that item, as was done in the past. Obviously, items just made to be cool godly equipment won't pass into game anyway, but if someone makes something nice that everyone will have access to at some point, I see no reason they shouldn't get it, and before others do even.

The issue with items you pay for, is that many players either do not have a way to pay for them (such as younger players, those without paypal, etc), or they play this game because they enjoy that they can theoretically get every item available, even if it's very difficult. I cannot describe how many games I quit because no matter how good my character was, the "premium" players always got the cool novelty items, or even better equipment I could not compete with.

The main problem is, even if you make "premium items" available to regular players some other way, they will be limited and have to work harder to get one, while someone with a paypal account and nothing better to spend on, can just buy these things in mass, with no limit.

Which is why I suggested an stats-less item. But seems the problem is making the distinction between a free gift item to thank somebody for bothering to donate and a "premium" paid for item that makes you god-like.

The thing is that it doesn't have to be an in-game item or even an item at all. Just some small act that shows gratitude to the user for the donation. But I guess I'll always be in the wrong no matter what I suggest.

I understand your frustration, but you're overdramatizing a bit saying that. It has nothing to do with you in particular, just this game has never done the premium thing before - big changes can be great, but if they will cause a lot of your older (game age) player base to leave, it's not very smart either. If a player who has been around for many years is incapable of paying for such items for any reason, I can easily see why they might be upset when suddenly some interesting item (even with zero stat benefits) is all over, and they learn they cannot get one.

At any rate, this game has always run as open source, and has tried to remain completely free to everyone. This does not mean you yourself are always wrong just because something you keep suggesting isn't really what the developers have in mind for the game.

Then use a perishable item that can be obtained but is rare or occasional (like the Halloween sweets) or just use one of my other suggestions. This thread may have started with commercializing tmw or creating premium paid-for services, but what I'm proposing has nothing in common with that line of thinking.

It's simply providing small (perishable) gifts or small acts of gratitude (like page listing donors) to show that we are thankful to these people that make donations. This creates an incentive to donate to our open source project. The code and content might be free, but what you host it on costs money.

I'm probably wasting my breath here since you guys are clearly trying to brush me off in a nice way. I know that's what you're doing because I've done it way too much in the last year, but I will tell you one thing. Some of the people that I brushed off, the kind that annoyed the crap out of me, came back and proved me wrong because their idea worked. I was just too blind too see it. Luckily the head developer did.

I'm not saying donation incentives is that kind of idea nor I am it's not. I'm just saying don't repeat my mistake by brushing off an idea before considering it from all sides. On IRC I saw you guys complaining about not having enough artists. Wouldn't being able to pay an artist to design something small be worth it?

I guess not.

Try-zar wrote:Wouldn't being able to pay an artist to design something small be worth it?

I guess not.

this game started from day one from volunteers why ruin that to hire a graphic artist? and nobody's trying to brush you off or saying things personally, but you should also look at the side where some people are coming from as well...this game has always been free and every item in the game has always been obtainable (except for a few but those were removed ages ago). Donations have also been by choice which people did donate once again hundreds of dollars and they got new hardware for everybody to enjoy. Items are great, just dont think items should be in game that not everybody can have access to.

Anyway getting tired of hearing myself say the same thing. Ill not post the same stuff again.

Regards,

Two words: slippery slope.

Donations are good. Donation *incentives* are bad, for us. (unless you count the list of donators which is already public on sourceforge ...)

Try-zar wrote:[...]creating a zero stats item to reward people nice enough to donate even a small amount shouldn't be implemented because some people might not like it?

Look at the cap, i think it costs around 10 million gp at Exotic Trader. It has only a bonus of +5 in defense. Let's say that, for that price, it's completely useless no ? Too weak for warriors to fight with, and useless according to the bonus it provides for archers and mages.
Moreover, as i know, it can't even be dyed.
So why do i recently seen a lot of players who would like it ? For some kind of "fame", to have an item that not so many people has ? To show their richness ?

What i mean is that, even an useless item, even an item with 0 bonus will make some people competing for.
Items should stay available for everyone.
I agree that this one, or the other hats of Exotic Shops, are really hard to get, especially for a new player, but what's wrong with it ? Everyone can one day buy one if she/he wants, after days, even probably months of playing.
I prefer to see a player with this "rare and hardly obtainable" item because he has played a lot, than because he has money irl, even if irl the price is very low. Find a use to pay for obtaining items ingame ? Seriously, to my mind that's just a way to make "addicted" people to pay, and to some extent, to vacuum their money uselessly.
Also, i remember an admin made an event in where she gave some of those caps to players, so even new players have been able to get one.

The problem if you make these kind of item, even "useless" one such as beans or thing like that, is that, as it has been said, some people would be able to buy it irl and have a lot of them wheareas others won't be able to paid for it.
What i also see is that if some people buy it, it would completely break TMW's economy, because i'm sure you'll see these items at a high price in manamarket, destinated to people who would like it but who can't pay for it...

Don't feel as a devil, because i understand your idea which primary aim is to develop the game faster. Though, as i understand of it's development (and i really approve it), it seems to be developped by passionated people, and i think no one, or not so much players, care about the development speed of the game. Of course, if people who delelop the game aren't paid, the development is quite slow, because to continue to develop, they have to live irl, which of course include work.
Furthermore, maybe that they want to do other things, maybe they have another passion. You can't expect a quick development if people don't live from it, or don't want to spend their entire life in front of a screen doing nothing else.

So yes, it could probably be really faster to develop if developpers would be paid, but as the moto said : "A free open source 2D MMORPG in development". I think that any kind of payment, except donations when really needed, ruins opensource's principe.

I see nothing really wrong in you idea's aim, but it's just in opposition with the principe of this game, and to some extent (i hope i'm not wrong with it), to it's creators wills.

So an item is a bad idea. I get it. But what about my other suggestions? Are they also considered bad because I made one bad one? Is it really so much to ask for some kind of gratitude towards our donors or provide a list of them on a page view-able by others? It gives donors something to be proud of. That is what donation incentives are: Giving people a reason to donate by giving them something to be proud of. It's still completely voluntary. It seems instead you want people to donate while pretty much going "Now go to hell" every time they do.

My intentions and words are just being twisted into something they're not. I meant only good. So I'll officially shut up now.

Try-zar, I don't understand why you act like you are being attacked. People are just objectively discussing your proposals. You don't have to take it personally when people have a different opinion than you.


As already pointed out, we don't really need donations because we wouldn't know what to do with them anyway. Hosting is provided for free thanks to platinum.edu.pl, so we have no running costs. And distributing donations among the developers would only stimulate greed and envy.

When people want to give back to TMW, we would rather take their workforce than their money.

You are well-intended, but you are proposing a solution we have no problem for.

Constructive criticism I can take, but not misplaced idealistic ostracizing.

Another project I worked with had a solid host with FSF France for 2 years, but in the end the server got pulled giving us only 2 weeks to find a replacement. It may not be a problem yet, but one day it might be. It may not be to that level of extreme, but it doesn't hurt to plan ahead and save for a rainy day. Kindness towards people that donate now may pay off when we really need it later.

I'm also considering if I should keep playing or not. I really don't fit in and my efforts to be nice just comes off as awkward. I'm used to dominating conversations and saying what is on my mind. Most people take offensive to this; which is why I try so hard to be nice and passive. In the end I get treated the same as when I do.

Try-zar wrote:So an item is a bad idea. I get it. But what about my other suggestions? Are they also considered bad because I made one bad one? Is it really so much to ask for some kind of gratitude towards our donors or provide a list of them on a page view-able by others? It gives donors something to be proud of. That is what donation incentives are: Giving people a reason to donate by giving them something to be proud of. It's still completely voluntary. It seems instead you want people to donate while pretty much going "Now go to hell" every time they do.

My intentions and words are just being twisted into something they're not. I meant only good. So I'll officially shut up now.

I don't really know what to think about donator's name appearance on a page view-able by others. I know they could be proud of it, and to my mind that's a nice way to thank them. But probably that some will feel more important after having given a donation. What i think is that, when you donate, you don't have to expect anything from receivers, to my mind that's some kind of "gratitude" for something you like or pledge for. But yes, receivers don't have to say you "Go to hell", of course
What i mean is that if would be bad if some people would feel more "important" after having donated. I know it couldn't be it, but unfortunately we live in a world which contains some disturbed people.

I know my point of view is too much "paranoiac", but that's to insists on what i think about donations.
Don't take it bad, that's only my point of view, and we're here to discuss about it, not to feel hurt about it

Try-zar wrote:worked with had a solid host with FSF France for 2 years, but in the end the server got pulled giving us only 2 weeks to find a replacement. It may not be a problem yet, but one day it might be. It may not be to that level of extreme, but it doesn't hurt to plan ahead and save for a rainy day. Kindness towards people that donate now may pay off when we really need it later.

I completely agree on that point. I don't know if this problem happens often or not, but it would be good to have a preventive plan already completely done to face such situation, in cas it happens. No one know what can happen.

Try-zar wrote:I'm also considering if I should keep playing or not. I really don't fit in and my efforts to be nice just comes off as awkward. I'm used to dominating conversations and saying what is on my mind. Most people take offensive to this; which is why I try so hard to be nice and passive. In the end I get treated the same as when I do.

Hey man, would you stop playing and have fun because of your rather "bad" position in a debate ?
Seriously ? I'm sure you would regret it
Your efforts to be nice will often come off as awkward. It's difficult to be well considerated, and it's more difficult when the number of persons in front of you is high !
And you obviously can't always dominate a conversation, even if saying what's on your mind is appreciated to my opinion.
Keep being nice and passive, that's the only way a debate can be constructive and useful, and to my mind you're doing it very well yes

If being cautionary is a bad position to have, then I never want to be right.

I was just making another suggestion with the website one since every other one was being rejected.