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To my taste banshee is overpowered - extreme setups (Slicer-style: potions + speed focus + terra arrows) cause serious imbalance in game, letting certain players to take nearly all valuable drops and earn very high XP, up to degree other classes could only dream. While I'm not against "turbo modes" and respect voluntary decision of many archers to abandon potions or share drops, this is too unnatural and should not be like this. I think all classes should be more or less comparable in terms of their grind/leveling/pvp abilities, ideally. Just to keep gameplay interesting, diverse and avoid strong bias where almost everyone selects most advantageous class. Now overall market situation suggests bias occured in favor of banshee. While items rarity should be the same, banshee is most expensive item, often by factor 2x or so. Means "most demanded". Least demanded seems to be lazurite robe. Probably because mage at lvl90+ is expensive to maintain, haves nasty disadvantages, does not offers remarkable damage comparable to fast bansgee setups and is bad in grinding. Most notably most lazurite owners are just some secondary alts or temporarily stat resets. Generally backed up by strong grinder of some other class, which indicates you its hard play this class directly in its own. Bull would fit somewhere between these points in terms of demand.

As for "costs": heals are not really expensive, others have to use them as well, and magic is not anyhow cheap either but lacks turbo-powerups, quite slow in terms of raw damage per second compared to other illia items, especially extreme setups on steroids potions (particular monsters def/m.def could affect this). As for warriors, warriors have some unobvious malus: they have to MOVE to target before hitting it. Takes extra time. So less damage per timeframe (or less smaller targets in some timeframe), though aggro monsters could negate it somewhat. And hopeless death in PvP most of time (worst part of TMW balancing IMO).

As for bull, so far I was not able to notice Bull Helm owners outperform others to degree where it would appear on radars obviously enough. Never seen bull owners taking most drops (unlike banshee archers), etc. Maybe some extremely fragile setups can try, but they will have gameplay troubles as melee assumes withstanding some direct damage.

Some more detailed reasons why I think banshee is overpowered were outined in my post here (which happens to be offtopic at that place, sorry) and overall context has been a bit different.

To explain my reasoning in a bit more detailed manner, to why it's Not Overpowered is the level as well. These ARE 90+ level weapons and theyre supposed to give more exp than the weapons people use from level 20-50 or 50-80. The weapons are not balanced at all in the game which makes weapons like these seem too powerful. When you play a game you're suppose to have leveled up weapons and weapons that can do more damage not the same weapon through out the whole game to the level cap of your character.

IMO this bow and the other equipment made for the 90+ characters *brings* balance. Level 90s dont have to use level 60 weapons to get to level 99 and keep trying to level until they get bored of the game. These weapons make it more exciting to play and encourages players to level up all the way to 99.

People who are saying the healing isn't expensive, they must be pretty rich somehow compared to other high level players because it tends to get very expensive when you're constantly in the graveyard or somewhere leveling and your bow is taking a crap load of HP from your character. Like I said in my other post i tend to use hundreds of thousands of gold pieces just for healing alone. The buying arrows is just another added on expense to that which tends to go very quickly. Traveling costs money too to go buy items then walk all the way back to the place you were leveling at.

If you're not careful people tend to die a lot from using the bow, the only reason why people need to be careful for newbies when they are using these items is because other areas of the game for higher levels are still being worked on. That's why some people might not see it as "balanced" or "fair". As far as I know more maps are being worked on for higher levels and such so people wont have to fight for exp anymore in 1 area.

I wouldn't change a thing about these items to be honest, they're made for high level players, and thats the point of having a high level player to have High level items. The bow gives exp if you keep at it a while *with* the expenses. But have you seen how much exp is needed to get to level 99? People 90+ Need more exp than the lower leveled characters on the game.

regards,
Chicka

Chicka-Maria wrote:To explain my reasoning in a bit more detailed manner, to why it's Not Overpowered is the level as well. These ARE 90+ level weapons and theyre supposed to give more exp than the weapons people use from level 20-50 or 50-80.

And can you outperform potioned banshee archer with terra arrows and speed skill in terms of XP per time, drops, damage per unit of time/killrate? By mage? Warrior? For me looks like if there is quite definitive answer: no. This setup makes others uncompetitive. Only banshee archers can top to 125K XP per min or maybe more. Only banshee archerc can collect so much drops they're ashamed and willing to share them for free with others. And no, this is not how things should happen in balanced game. And looking average market prices of illia items could give you very good impression what people prefer most. When banshee costs 2 times a bull and 3 times a robe when drop rate is the same - its hard to deny obvious things, no?

p.s. and btw, all illia "class" items come with some malus included. So its strange to complain on malus. Other classes have reasons to blame malus as well.

t3st3r wrote:

Chicka-Maria wrote:To explain my reasoning in a bit more detailed manner, to why it's Not Overpowered is the level as well. These ARE 90+ level weapons and theyre supposed to give more exp than the weapons people use from level 20-50 or 50-80.

And can you outperform potioned banshee archer with terra arrows and speed skill in terms of XP per time, drops, damage per unit of time/killrate? For me looks like if there is quite definitive answer: no. This setup makes others uncompetitive. Only banshee archers can top to 125K XP per min or maybe more. Only banshee archerc can collect so much drops they're ashamed and willing to share them for free with others. And no, this is not how things should happen in balanced game. And looking average market prices of illia items could give you very good impression what people prefer most. When banshee costs 2 times a bull and 3 times a robe when drop rate is the same - its hard to deny obvious things, no?

Actually I've seen people with bull helmets do just as much damage at a great speed, just instead of getting damage from their helmets they're getting damage from monsters while archers get damage from their bows since they're long ranged. You're not suppose to out power these items they're Higher level items for 90+ characters only. Nobody under 90+ should be able to out power them at all. You also might want to keep in mind archers don't have very much vitality compared to people who might use the bull helmet. Depending on the characters build. People share items because they can and they want to, not because they feel they're obligated to lol If they share for that reason then they are sharing for the wrong reasons.

regards,

Slicer-style banshee has a base cost of 2850gp per 90 seconds of gameplay. This is BASE cost, not taking into account healing for anything other than bow-damage. At this rate of expenditure it's not really sustainable to run around going nuts all the time. It's more like sprinting.

What you don't see is the less specialized alts grinding away behind the scenes for items and GP to support the batshit banshee rampages of this single character. I don't really think it's unbalanced, It's a new and interesting way for high level characters to play. Overall being a generic warrior (not even using bull helmet) gains more exp/week, it's just not as fun.

Edit: I'm pretty sure the base cost is even higher.. I believe I under-valued terranite arrows considerably. Anyway, it's $#@$J expensive!

I'm with MadCamel on this one.

It is like the old mages are overpowered because of their damage output cries.

Sure, the damage done is great - but as he states there has to be some grinding to keep them up and running, mages need their ore to be effective offensively, banshee archers need potions and loads of healing to fulfill their potential.

I have played quite a lot with all the illia rewards and i think they are more balanced than what most people think.

As already stated, if we want mobs that are harder for banshee archers and ragers with bull i would make one that have a really high crit evasion rate and that can make ranged attacks.

I really do not want higher def-rates in game IMO i think we already have far to good defensive stuff in game. I would much rather see gear introduced that made speed warriors/tanks gaining accuracy/damage at the expense of def-stats.

For the pvp-side of the game I think there has to be some thinking to be made, one-on-one fights leaves the warrior/rager without any chance against archers and mages.

Dark mages don't have #asorm that is a big minus and i love Cassys idea of the mental potion to even this out. I have an idea about a offhand parrying knife for warriors:

... I am also thinking about making a new parrying knife that takes up the shield slot that basically gives a greater chance of fleeing/dodging and reduce the risk of getting critically hit but that has a def value of 0 that takes up the shield slot. It should also have quite a high m.def value to try and get warriors into the PVP side of game. I also think it should come with a slight AGI bonus (or preferably that all shields should have a AGI penalty).

Balancing wise I also agree with whoever raised the question of why mages can't be self sustained in any effective way. The need a miner to keep themselves stocked with iron i think this should be something to look at, maybe just make daily quests that gives out iron powder instead of money or something. But something for this to be balanced so you can play ONE charachter would be nice. After all most people want to be able to be able to play a bit less actively than many of us are doing. If you have to have a support char to be able to be a mage it might drive new players away.

Good discussion so far. Lets a change the topic slightly as I think I see a deeper problem behind the weapons.

Quick Survey:
What is the Best overall build for TMW right now?
Whats the best for farming?
Whats the best for PvP?
Whats the best for PvE? (player vs. environment, no pvp)

Please be descriptive about advantages you see another build having over others that increases it's success beyond other builds.

t3st3r wrote:

Chicka-Maria wrote:To explain my reasoning in a bit more detailed manner, to why it's Not Overpowered is the level as well. These ARE 90+ level weapons and theyre supposed to give more exp than the weapons people use from level 20-50 or 50-80.

And can you outperform potioned banshee archer with terra arrows and speed skill in terms of XP per time, drops, damage per unit of time/killrate? By mage? Warrior? For me looks like if there is quite definitive answer: no. This setup makes others uncompetitive. Only banshee archers can top to 125K XP per min or maybe more. Only banshee archerc can collect so much drops they're ashamed and willing to share them for free with others. And no, this is not how things should happen in balanced game. And looking average market prices of illia items could give you very good impression what people prefer most. When banshee costs 2 times a bull and 3 times a robe when drop rate is the same - its hard to deny obvious things, no?

p.s. and btw, all illia "class" items come with some malus included. So its strange to complain on malus. Other classes have reasons to blame malus as well.

You could find unbalances everywhere. To me Illia items are pretty balanced.
The "archer gets more exp than warrior" stays the same even with Illia items. What also doesn't change is that the warrior is quite well protected whereas the archer is rather vulnerable...
And I've noticed some raging warriors gets a good exp/min too.

About drops, even without these "new" items, archers with potions already picked them all at high level, so nothing changes...
Also, imo it seems pretty natural to share drops, especially when you don't need them anymore. First, players are happy, which can't be a bad point. And secondly, it avoids players sitting or waiting for drops to be available. In Candor, I see many of them dying while waiting for availability. While waiting, they also loose exp/min...

In Market, you'll also see that the Wooden Staff is more expensive than the Wizard Hat. However, Wiz hat boosts your average hit more than the staff. Finally this game owns a real exp-grinding item, of course people wants it to level up quickly, even spending a lot of money on potions and heals.

Banshee bow is certainly an exp-machine, but for it you sacrifice a lot of money, time to grind for it, and survivability... You can't have something powerful without sacrifices, or it looses it's taste and becomes boring.

I also agree on Chicka's post about the fact these items are intended to high level players. Before it was amazingly boring to level up to 99...

wushin wrote:Good discussion so far. Lets a change the topic slightly as I think I see a deeper problem behind the weapons.

Quick Survey:
What is the Best overall build for TMW right now?
Whats the best for farming?
Whats the best for PvP?
Whats the best for PvE? (player vs. environment, no pvp)

Please be descriptive about advantages you see another build having over others that increases it's success beyond other builds.

IMO there is no fast or good answer to those questions, and are they really the pressing matter?

PVP - sure imbalance is obvious, and yeah it would be neat with a fix. However this is not something that is really crucial atm imo.

I think the obvious thing to look into is the mid-range. That is when people get bored that it is really slow to level warriors and hard to keep a mage stocked with spell ingredients.

For that range i think that warriors have a hard time making any kind of xp impact, because they must be able to take a few blows while dealing some damage and they just can't go to the GY and make any kind of XP before lvl 65 or so.

Archers can always backpedal and sneak in a shot or two to get reasonably good xp, this is by far the best way of leveling at that kind of level.

Mages do good damage but can't sustain themselves with iron in any feasible way without having a support char (this is a problem imo).

------

As for best grinding overall, it depends on what you want to grind and what level you are at - i think that consensus could be made that a speed warrior is the best way to grind for ore and red slimes.

Ragers are probably the best allround build in PvE because they can kill anything and they don't cost shitloads to keep going.

Archers are a close second, but they can't kill skulls/jackos in a effective manner by themselves.

Mages kick ass, they work well in teams because of their healing skills and they do really good damage and not many mobs have any defence against magic. But it takes time to get the ore they need to be able to do their damage. A new midrange spell might be a good idea imo.

I think that we need mobs that are able to dodge crits in a better way (without being super hard to hit, to give the speed warriors a break and ragers/banshee archers some problems). Also mobs with m.def would be nice. From the top of my head i can only think of fey elements and luvia that has a good m.def. And those are two bosses, not regular mobs.

Chicka-Maria wrote:Actually I've seen people with bull helmets do just as much damage at a great speed,

I asked direct question. Just take equally leveled lvl90+ mage and warrior with illia items and try to outperform mentioned setup. Answer is boolean: either they do comparable damage or don't. For mages answer is obvious - they're too slow. For warrior... at least realistic and usable setups do not do it.

Ideally someone have to bother self to do stats collection in some instrumented way to see how classes perform vs each other in commonly used and edge cases (like low-health, speed optimized setups, etc). At very least using something like kills/XP monitor from manaplus on some intense gameplay, etc. I can provide one obvious example. Let's take jack-o (nice target for 90+, right?). If battlefield is not empty (candor, GY, etc) - warrior spends considerable time chasing it and trying to hit before locking monster to self. Banshee archer haves far less issues due to range attack and good chance to hit + nearly stops monster in aggressive setups. Mages can hit it easily but their damage is not anyhow comparable with mentioned banshee setup. Result is obvious: banshee owner wins 100% time. Same works for most of other monsters I guess.

just instead of getting damage from their helmets they're getting damage from monsters while archers get damage from their bows since they're long ranged.

True for some degree. However, more or less realistic setups in game need to survive fairly strong monsters, directly facing them. So overall I do NOT see warriors grabbing nearly all valuable drops and getting uber-high XP to degree others cant compete at all. For banshee archers this is very common occurence on other hand.

You're not suppose to out power these items they're Higher level items for 90+ characters only.

I would suppose all classes wearing illia items to be more or less comparable. But it is not - banshee is a clear winner. It's price goes about 2x as high as bull and sometimes almost 3x as robe on market. Very clear indication of items power as viewed by players.

Nobody under 90+ should be able to out power them at all.

Sure, I assumed other classes would wear illia items and should have lvl90+ to keep it fair. I thought its obvious enough from context.

You also might want to keep in mind archers don't have very much vitality compared to people who might use the bull helmet.

So you decided to help me to prove it? Yes, banshee archer do not have to withstand damage from monster for a while, this allows more agressive setups on its own. Additionally it also makes strong monsters to choke and unable to move, relaxing problem with low health and monster hits. Warrior on other hand have to live with all these hits and so cant completely abandon vit, especially granted that bull comes with malus which makes things worse.

People share items because they can and they want to,

Generally, polite banshee archers would recognize they outshoot everyone on battlefield. Regardless if others are lvl90+ and have illia items. That's why it happens. This is not common for other classes because ... because when there are banshee archers on battlefield, almost all drops go to them. So other classes cant share drops for obvious reason .

wushin wrote:What is the Best overall build for TMW right now?

Depends on how you define "best". Lets assume we're about getting XP and (maybe) drops (as they're related: one who makes most damage earns most XP and most drops). At low levels I think archer is the best idea as they dont have to care about health and could go for quite aggressive setups, should their connection quality allow to play good and player is not dumb to learn walking and targeting well enough. Though players not familiar with economy would stuck on the fact arrows are not free and may prefer warrior for that reason. Players who are bad on learning movement and targeting would dislike archers as well. On bad connection (GPRS, sat) developing tanked warrior is the only choice as its forgiving (which is "a must" for bad connection). Same could be a case with very slow computers. But its at cost of slow XP and no drops in multi-player actions. But at least its keeps things playable. On higher levels, rich player can try mage at levels about 75..80 to 90 (too weak/too hard before, completely pointless at lvl 90+ thanks to illia items imbalance). Could be good XP thanks to ability to hit tough monsters. But dies a lot and troublesome to maintain as mage utterly lacks good ways to hunt stuff and maintain self. So most of TMW mages are alts or temporary restats. Hard to be "full time" mage as 1st character (and nearly impossible without restats). And at lvl 90+ speed banshee definitely pwns all. Illia items prices on market clearly suggest which item is most powerful.

Whats the best for farming?

Answer depends on what to farm. But I can tell what's worst for farming in general: mages. Loses to other classes (except maybe heavily tanked warriors) nearly all time. No magic attacks to kill small things like slimes at rates comparable to others + attacks could be quite costly (esp for low levels). Archer vs warrior - I guess it depends. Archer not spends time on walking. Warrior enjoys zero-cost attacks (things like slimes are not really damage warriors much so aggressive setups could work well). So both classes are remarkable at grinding to my taste. Also archer can temporarily resort to melee as speed skill (commonly preferred by high-lvl archers) and overall stats (dex, agi, etc) are quite good for melee weapons as well. I guess speed-optimized warrior could be preferrable to gring weak monsters like slimes due to free attacks and fact that weak monsters allow quite aggressive speed-optimized setups. But decent archer could also hunt well and even resort to melee occasionally if low on GPs or out of arrows. Not an option for mages though as their stats are usually super-bad for melee.

Whats the best for PvP?

Speed banshee archer who also got isis heart (to speed-up regen/more health) and lazurite robe (to cast #asorm which is weak but enough to make mages unhappy). Luvia (player) setup seems to pwn all. At least on mass "free for all" events such setup shots everything around like a chickens. Not sure if it works well on 1 vs 1 duels in 100% cases though. Maybe there is something to counter it, but I'm not really aware about huge successes in this area.

Whats the best for PvE? (player vs. environment, no pvp)

Speed banshee archer I think. Most XP, most of valuable drops, kills nice both tough monsters and small crap for farming. Also archers could resort to forest bow sometimes for non-speed-critical things or when low on healing items. Could be both fairly cheap at not-so-bad damage and utterly destructive when needed, outperforming anyone else.

cinderweb wrote:It is strong no doubt but how well does it do compared to the other rewards

I think market prices show this very well. Banshee is strongest for sure. Most realistic warrior setups cant anyhow outperform speed banshee with terranite arrows and potions since warriors have to survive monsters hits on permanent basis (unlike archers). Mages with laz. robe do cool damage per bolt attack, but bolts are way too slow, as the result overall damage per timeframe (DPM, etc) and kill rate is not anyhow comparable to exteame banshee setups on steroids. This caused fairly obvious situation where most players want banshee for obvious reason. Which is in topic title.

From here: http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 06#p137506
(I answer here cause two active topics about the same issue are confusing )

t3st3r wrote: I think market prices show this very well.

We shouldn't refer to market prices in this case.
This is a good example why market prices are only indications that can be wrong.

As I pasted in my first post it's actually quite simple:
-> if you are a mage you want the Lazurite Robe
-> if you are a warrior you want the Bull Helmet
-> if you are an archer you want the Banshee Bow

I'm over this for weeks now because I traded two Lazurite Robes for two Banshees, but just can't get the Heart of Isis.

I explain the weird prices to myself like this:
-> some people keep believing that the Lazurite Robe is no must-have and can be replaced with a Sorcerer Robe, which is very wrong by comparing m.att. It's not just +20 vs +60, which actually already is a huge difference, the Lazurite Robe also gives +7 INT and the maluses aren't too hard.
-> I didn't even try counting how many people love the Banshee Bow simply because it looks awesome (including myself btw)
-> the Heart of Isis is the most valuable one and therefore toughest to get by trading because it's super effective with every class

It depends on what you prefer to play as.
Each item is a must-have for its class.
The Banshee Bow is highly demanded because people love how it looks in use.
Sure they also see the higher exp they can get, but what they don't see is the price.
Some see it later and trade their Banshee for another item.

t3st3r wrote:speed banshee with terranite arrows and potions

...is extremly expensive.
Yes, the EXP are outstanding, but so is the price you have to pay.
I'm playing as an half-archer, DEX95, AGI~40, and (without comparing dmg/sec) I can't see any big difference between me and "real" mages with the Lazurite Robe or warriors with the Bull Helmet.
Actually I'm pretty sure I do less damage and have more costs and risk as warriors, maybe even as mages (healing isn't cheap (even as half-archer I have to feel that every day), still need a lot of arrows and having a high chance of getting killed because the Banshee Bow decreases your max HP by 150 and after a 2-3 seconds certain mobs can kill me with one single hit).

Everything else, high AGI, speed skill, special arrows, concentration and iron potions, leads to a point with great exp, but crazy high costs.

It's well balanced in PvE, really.

PvP gives me a headache.
Well, this is about the Mental Potion, I'll write that in the other thread

Cassy wrote: We shouldn't refer to market prices in this case.

Why? Since items rate introduction in game is meant to be equal (1/4 chance to get each), and actually more or less the same, item's price actually related to item "rarity" (deficite). The more deficite, the higher the price. This is basics of economy and in-game economy isn't anyhow different in this regard when it comes to trading.

I'm over this for weeks now because I traded two Lazurite Robes for two Banshees, but just can't get the Heart of Isis.

Generally its not easy to change laz. robe -> bow. But very easy to change bow -> robe on other hand. While it could be possible, in this case players disregard economy principles in favor of "getting things done", personal gameplay preferences or just to show some appreciation. You can even get some item as gift sometimes. This does not imply it costs nothing. But when people place items for sale in shops, price reflects actual demand and item value as viewed by others. Heart of Isis is "classless" item while still haves 1/4 chance to get it but nearly 1/1 as actual demand (since its good for all classes). This ensures huge deficite and highest price. Then Banshee is most expensive "class" item thanks to large demand .

It depends on what you prefer to play as.

Right. Should any imbalance exist, most players would prefer most advantageous class, obviously. That's how increased demand on banshee occurs. As simple as that: most players dream to get XP like crazy, overtake all drops and kill all things around . Banshee is a really nice thing in this case, it makes these wishes granted. It comes with some downsides, but all illia items have malus so its wrong to complain on malus IMO.

Each item is a must-have for its class.
The Banshee Bow is highly demanded because people love how it looks in use.

Sure, almost everyone would like idea to outshoot others to the hell, grab most XP(+steal teaming bonus), grab all drops on battlefield and so on. So archers class would be most popular for lvl90+ as it gives most advantages to player. Not surprisingly its doomed to be most wanted thing. Also, warriors could be a bit monotonous/boring (raging and bull helmet somewhat fixed this, which is good). Mages could be fun to play thanks to many tricks in backpack, but ... but lvl 90+ mage with illia item is pointless thing from technical side, compared to other lvl90+ classes with illia items. While bolt damage over 1000 looks spectacular, its slow and lacks turbo powerups. So it somehow comparable in terms of damage only to quite tanked warrior setups (while these setups enjoy by free attacks, dont care much about hits and can grind reasonably). Speed banshee archer on potions outshots mage (and any realistic warrior setup) any time of day and its a complete piss-off with terranite arrows. This happens even on tough monsters. And on numerous small monsters its a complete disaster as mage unable to kill many small monsters in efficient ways. While bolt takes 1.5-2 seconds or so to kill one monster, warrior or archer would kill few monsters already. Flar improves things a bit on monsters like slimes. But still, kill rate completely suxx compared to player of same level of other class. This makes mages really bad for grinding while their attacks still quite costly. Needless to say quite few people want to play it like this, so robe is least valued item of all as most players prefer to have more advantages in game.

speed banshee with terranite arrows and potions
...is extremly expensive.

The problem here is that I fail to see any realistic options for other classes to deal comparable damage and play on par. This is what called imbalance. While its IMO quite debatable if "moneybags" should have some striong advantages in battle, the real problem is that other classes have absolutely nothing to counter this. So banshee arhcers can outshot anyone anytime at their will. It would cost something but you see, there are enough players who can keep doing it for hours or days. So I think this case should be somehow handled to keep things balanced. I can understand people would hate item power reduction, even if it happens to be overpowered. For warriors I can propose something like "berserk mode" (some costly potion?) which improves damage at cost of health loss. For mages... well, its harder, but I guess there could be some costly powerup (like potion, etc) as well. Why only banshee users should be able to use expensive turbo modes? This is not really fair IMO. I'm not sure if decreasing power of banshee is good idea, Maybe warriors and mages should rather have some costly powerups to counter things like terranite arrows with potions? Hopefully this also answers to MadCamel and to some degree to Veryape (who haves remarkably strong and AFAIK speed-optimized mage which ... still fails to outshot banshee if starting to work on same monster at same time ),

I'm playing as an half-archer, DEX95, AGI~40, and (without comparing dmg/sec) I can't see any big difference between me and "real" mages with the Lazurite Robe or warriors with the Bull Helmet.

I guess you just dont go for most aggressive speed optimized setups. Others do and they actually able to outshot anyone on battlefield regardless of class and level unless its the same speed-optimized banshee on potions with terra arrows. Since its possible to have expensive but working setups like this, other classes should have some comparable options to counter this and balance things I guess? See above.

t3st3r wrote:

cinderweb wrote:It is strong no doubt but how well does it do compared to the other rewards

I think market prices show this very well. Banshee is strongest for sure. Most realistic warrior setups cant anyhow outperform speed banshee with terranite arrows and potions since warriors have to survive monsters hits on permanent basis (unlike archers). Mages with laz. robe do cool damage per bolt attack, but bolts are way too slow, as the result overall damage per timeframe (DPM, etc) and kill rate is not anyhow comparable to exteame banshee setups on steroids. This caused fairly obvious situation where most players want banshee for obvious reason. Which is in topic title.

Even if banshee does do a bit more damage then the bullhelmet i dont see players with the bull helmet spending more money like the archers are with terranite arrows as you assume theyre using. Terranite arrows are expensive as hell, along with the items to make it if you dont want to spend hours in the terranite cave to get ore. You keep putting aside the fact there is a bigger consequence of using the bow rather than the helmet. The bow is more "cursed" in the way of taking a crap load of HP from far distances not including the damage monsters put on the player, the expense of healing items AND arrows that need replacing every good hour or so. The items *are balanced* IMO