The Mana World Forums

prsm wrote:Sadly, you made this bed you have to lie in it.

You picked your admins, if they were bad, that's on you, you picked them!

I picked them by Bjorn and Elven suggestion, in faith that they will benefit the development of the project, they were never supposed to be community nor server admins. They had the access to server data to do updates and some basic commands for testing of these updates.

By your own words you were a dictator! Who wants to work for a dictator?

Napoleon Bonaparte also was a dictator and had millions of people willing to work with him. Wise person will work with devil himself if this is for the benefit of his or her community. And this is a rule I always applied - I was able to work with people I personally disliked and be objective - for the good of the project.

You never secured the DNS settings when you hosted, that's on you!

I never secured what? The domain is and always was the property of Elven.

You fought with everyone, once in a forum post you said you would cut the hand off anyone that raised it against you.

Not me fought with everyone but some were fighting with me - which was completely unnecessary as my conduct was guided by logic for project benefit and no irrational pressure and power craving trips would have any effect so they were pointless. I said that I will cut any hand which will disobey my command and I said it, AFAIR, when developers tried to put developers on GM positions behind my back with knowledge this is a basic principium of this project management and I will never consent.

Who wants to work with that?

I am not "that", I am a person.

You went afk for months at a time, yes for school, but still afk.

Before I went, as you call it, "afk" I prepared the project well - I divided my absolute powers to forum moderators, GMs and developers, with a huge degree of freedom. I just reserved myself a right to oversee the project and guard the basic principles of it. If I didn't make that division no putsch would be possible but also the project would die out. I sacrificed my power and security for the well being of the project.

But back on topic, the people you said stole the game from you are all long gone. I am the sole survivor of the move, and I supported it, but I didn't set it up or take part in it, I don't have the skills for that. So when you insult TMWC, you are insulting people you don't even know.
Nitay, veryape, wushin, Gina, gumi, chicka they had nothing to do with it.

Unauthorized copy is a stealing = simple, dictionary-like definition. Nitay, veryape, wushin, Gina, gumi, chicka didn't make this unauthorized copy so indeed they had nothing to do with it, so don't bring them up.

The people you accuse of being power hungry, these people that you don't know and have never talked to, have instead set the game up to be safe and self sufficient., with not one person in charge. Like you we also love the game, but unlike you, not one of us wants to be in charge.

I am a scientist, I make observations, analyse them and come with conclusions based on evidence. This whole situation is speaking for itself, so it doesn't even require any advanced analytical methods. And of course I know Frost, o11c etc. and I spoke with them many times, and so what? The game indeed never been safer than when hosted on a porn server. :) Currenly no person is in charge therefore no person is responsible - the results are clearly visible.

I know you will say this is a putsch, or call me a name, try and belittle everyone, and when you do .......that is why the people decided to get a new host, why we left.

Currently the only people getting called names are TMWC objectors.

Hi everyone, this post to ask to the tmwc the data they have.
I want to create my own server and i want that you give me the data that you have on the players.
Like that they can connect to my server with their char, alts, level and own gp.
No need for them to start over a new boring hunting exp.
Thank you very much to tell me when i can have them.

To help you to take a decision some quote below.

wushin wrote:

Bjørn wrote:Dear blackrazor,

What happened here was a split of this group, with Platyna on one side and all the others on the another. The data ended up on both sides, and both sides are in my opinion entitled to hold on to it. We should be able to trust each side to handle it with care, like they always have.

Best regards,
Bjørn

Souce - viewtopic.php?p=132861#p132861
Didn't even have to change a single line.

With this post, i can ask the data, the founders approval show that we can have a copy of the data if we build a server for the community, so we can split the data and this give me the right to ask a copy of it.

blackrazor wrote:Project founders opinion on this means nothing, ... The founders don't own the data, not of this fork, nor any other, so they have zero standing in this matter. They cannot give what isn't theirs to anyone else.

Of course the founders have no right to give what that they dont own, but as basis, they just give an approval, its the matter here, the founder approve to share copy of the data, and that's all that matters

blackrazor wrote: The fact that Platyna was left with a copy changes nothing, either. You aren't allowed to copy software, music, movies, cable, etc., that is owned by someone else, even if you leave them with a copy of it. Hahahahaha. So funny.

False, by this act the future TMWC have approved that if someone want a copy of the data, someone can have it. All we have to do is asking.[/quote]

blackrazor wrote: And finally, the fact that Frost and o11c had to do it in total secret, all black ops clandestine-like, like thieves in the middle of the night, meant that is exactly what they were. They were thieves; they were not authorized to take that which they took.

Ok some story are sad and the past is the past. We dont have to forget it. But we dont have to put it on the table each time.
Lets do the things properly, and as smart people from now.
All, founders and future TMWC gave their approval to split the data if someone wanted a copy.
So if someone need a copy of the data, he just have to ask it. Its all and simple.

blackrazor wrote: Go make your own fork instead of stealing someone else's. When you are successful in that, then you can talk the crap you talk about who is successful and who is not. Right now, you are just data bootleggers, profiting off of someone else's property.

I understand this point, but you see, if we do something from the start nobody will come and follow us, we are all lazy people. We dont want to waste our time on something already done, its for that we can share the data now.

wushin wrote:

blackrazor wrote:I see you moved it to Off Topic; Hide from the truth more, please. Truth to the TMWC is like sunlight to Vampires. Doesn't matter what Bjorn wrote years after the fact; he didn't know the details of that time nor did he care to, he just wanted to stick it to Platyna because of eAthena. Platyna was not just a host like MadCamel or whatever pay service you use now. This fork was completely managed and guided by her, dumped on her because Bjorn and Elven didn't want no eAthena baby. She owned the data, same as any other fork owns their data. Frost and o11c abused her trust, and stole the data from her server, plain and simple. Frost and o11c had to do it in secret, without warning, because they knew that if they were caught then Platyna would stop them and they would be toast. Thus, they were not authorized to do that, it was never discussed nor agreed to, and common sense calls that STEALING !

Its not stealing, the project founders both approved the move. Then agreed the data to be shared. When we split everything was left as is on .net.

Sad truth is .net was the fork that failed because it didn't have anyone able to carry it because they all agreed to the move.

Ty wushin for showing me this letter from the founders. And im agree with yours own words.
Doing this the future TMWC just said we are ok with sharing the players data.
Of course if the future TMWC wasnt agree with all of this, they, at time, returned the copy, and it was not the case.
By the fact the actual TMWC is agree to share the player data under some conditions, first asking, and use the copy for a server where the community is allowed to play free.
By inheritance, at same conditions that the players play on the server .org, that means free of charge and duty.
Even Platyna can ask a copy updated of the data.
TMWC have no right to not be agree with, or all of this fall under the law as steals and prejudice.

Hope players will appreciate my new server with all their char/alts, of course a copy of the data updated at the last record.

The next point will be with the client, to be added in server list.
But first the data.

wushin wrote:Time has told the truth about who can and can't support the community.

.org has had a couple 1,000 people online in the past couple of months. (or so says timestamps on account.txt) obviously you dont play, see saulc can have 10 accounts online, error 4-5 account connected. Lets say 15 players.
.org has had people online almost constantly since the server move. Yes, you are always online, 4144 too.....some others are there just connected doing nothing else.
.org is part of SPI, a non-profit for Open Source Projects. We will follow this.
.org is soon to administrated by a board. Sound nice, dont forget me about the data.
.org has fixed and patched enough of TMWA that .net hasn't (i.e. why platy can't keep it online)because she is not allowed to add her server in the server list, and you make some change to not allow ppl to play with old client. Is Hostage the word?
.org has done all the things they said they would. And no more
.org has developers, gms, admins, moderators, wiki editors, translators still willing to help.Right is it for this reason that there are no contents added in game? is it for this reason that there always a call toward people to become a dev instead being a steaming pile?
Is it for this reason community voice is not listen? telling us that you are dev, and dev do as they are pleased and if someone is not agree with do it by himself.

.net has been offline since 2013 with sporadic days of being online here and there. She was sick, client not allow to connect to his server, But of course she have to update it and soon she could have some fresh data.
.net was not responsive to TMW's needs.What do you mean by this?
.net happened because Platyna was not paying any attention at all to the project.
Do you try to suggest that everyone stolen is because they dont pay attention about their own stuff?
.net After the move Platyna went bonkers at the community. Seems there is a lot of them in the world, when they are stolen, but of course you didnt stole the data you shared them with her.

Then .net died because Platyna is actually a horrible person to work with otherwise .net would have thrived, but didn't. Oh can you show me something on what you planning to do with the tmw game? Or perhaps for the game engine?
Because from some time nothing is done to add some contents in game. But sure you planning a big surprise for all of us, lets show us some links about this.

As it is the reason we are having this argument on this forum is because .org was the successful Fork. What do you mean by successful? Bugs hunting? Bugs adding?

Ya'll can continue to flame and troll us all you want. The score is known. Time has written which Fork was successful and which Fork failed. Its not over yet

EOL

Ok ty for the truth.
Hope about the next truth update.

Stealing, revolution, powerhungry, comparisons with Hitler.. I try to stay out of all this drama because I just don't think it makes any sense.

If we start by looking at what has actually happened, the facts instead of all the names being flung around I think we might be able to better discuss this thing.

Firstly I want to say that I was not in any way shape or form in any position of influence when this move happened. I was a regular player who had just dipped my toe into the ocean of development by trying to make a quest and finish some art. As things turned out i didn't write the quest (just the main story), the copywriting/dialogue was done by someone qwertydragon, art finished by alige, and jenalya helped with most of the scripting.

Anyhow, as I was playing this game quite a lot back then I was affected by the move.

My take on it is the following:

The people running the daily chores in the game (GHP (group holding power) back then, TMWC nowadays) felt that they could not work under Platynas hierarchical structure where she always had the last word. Platyna didn't want to step down from her position and have a equal right to others in the GHP.

Here we have a conflict, I don't say who was right and why and all that, because I simply don't have that information. But this is the basic scene.

GHP held meetings in secret from Platyna, they decided to make a clone of the server and work in a more democratic order where differences were handled thru discussions and even polls if they couldn't reach an agreement.

What happened was that they found someone willing to host the game for free just as Platyna used to do, except the new host would not make any claim upon owning the project. The data was cloned from Platynas server and ElvenProgrammer who owned the domain themanaworld.org agreed to point it to the new host.

----

Now, the data was copied from one server to another. Nothing was deleted on Platynas server, it was still there in perfect working condition.

Who owned the data? This is a hard question to answer imo, because there was no contract who stated who owns the data as far as I am concerned. But morally I would say that the people who has generated the data is the owners - that would be the players. From the players perspective I think that under the circumstances the right judgement call was made. Now they have the ability to choose either to stay with Platynas server or Join the developers, gms, admins in their new community driven servers (using the old hostname).

Don't like that your account is on that server? Delete all chars, change password and play at the old server - you the player own the data, TMWC just host it for you (for free). The only thing that was lost was Platynas absolute claim to ownership/control over the data IMO. Instead of letting her decide, the move made the players able to decide.

This is still true, Platyna had the server in perfect working condition (albeit the dns pointed to the new server). No-one that was around at the time of the move could have missed what happened and how to connect to Platynas server, it was no secret at the time and still isn't.

The players voted with their feet, I bet not because they disliked Platyna - but because they thought that the server run by the developers and gm's would be a smoother ride and get more added content than the one that didn't really have anyone developing or being a game master.

Platyna has really helped this project along and is one of the first names in a list of credit imo, along with other of the early people who made the foundation of what we have today. However, for whatever reason it didn't work well between her and others in the project so they made a split. The only other solution from their position (as I have been told) were for those people to quit and leave TMW with the rudder set but no sails to make the boat progress. Now we have a rudder that is steered by a TMWC and the player base, we don't have a steady route all the time, but at least we have sails. We are going places, maybe we are going in circles at times, but there is drive to keep going.

If something above sounds silly it is because i am silly and/or tired - If something above sounds agressive it is not my intention, I blaim the tiredness for that.

theres not one side, and what happens with my data is up to me* alone(that 1 of 3 points of view of a new emerging kognitive industry).
u need ask me if u do such things!!
beside that, platyna was never alone!
she has an opensource heart and im with her, i just whish this will be fine again.
im sure she doesn do this all on her own behalf, she stated this many times and i see* it.
why keep her away from such a project? shes a must* have!

veryape wrote: The players voted with their feet, I bet not because they disliked Platyna - but because they thought that the server run by the developers and gm's would be a smoother ride and get more added content than the one that didn't really have anyone developing or being a game master.

This is a blatant lie - you simply hijacked the domain name and you refused to put the original server on the client list. Also you lied that community was for the move - you never asked players and you did it all behind their backs - so for a long time they had no idea what was going on.

Adrena: Thank you for your words, they make all that work I have done worthy.

The domain was changed by Elvenprogrammer (TMW's Founder). Elvenprogrammer changed the IP for TMW to move from .net, then they transferred the domain to SPI (Software for the Public Interest http://spi-inc.org/) where only another non-profit, not any single person, can change, alter or move the domain. SPI also operates as our registar. (see below)

Platyna, We are 100% legitimate. Everything signed and sealed by SPI & Elvenprogrammer. It's all 100% within the control of TMW and no one else. Nothing was hijacked but freely given.

u need to know theres a heart sometimes when it comes to some things.
platyna was very proud to host this, not on her own behalf, but selfless, for the greater good thats in opensource and democracy.
it was taken from her a really rude way and her heart hurts because of this.

platyna, see the ppl in "charge" now try to make this game rly safe a way noone can ever take it, thats what they try to do now.
i know u see yourself selfless as one part that might be a host for it, its essential u get this idea.
maybe some day tmw will be in the lands of platinum again.
if not, continue loving it!

please join all together now as is and see!

your advice will always be gold platyna.

Ownership is such a simple thing, even wushin cannot muddy it, even though he tries so hard.

Elven owns the DNS. That is all Elven owns. No more and no less. Owning the DNS and being the founder is great, cool, very respectable, but it does not confer any rights regarding the data on other people's servers.

Players do NOT own their data in ANY multiplayer game they play, including this one. When the data is stored on another entity's server or on a server that entity rents or uses, then that entity owns the data, not the players. However, in the EU, it is the law that players have the right to review their data and to demand that it be removed upon their request. Those are the player rights regarding their data.

By the GPL licence under which this game is copylefted, the data belongs to the entity operating the software or on who's behalf the software is being run. Go look in the server list for all the other running servers of TMW-like forks or clones. Each of those servers owns their own data, not the players, not Elven, and not the TMWC.

Platyna owned the data on the server she ran. She's wasn't just the host. She was the admin, queen, dictator, owner of the server, and the entity to whom belonged that particular TMW dataset. The GHP were not a group in power, at least not relative to Platyna. Platyna's rule was absolute, and the data thus belonged to her. In fact, the subordinate role of the GHP was the reason they left. They didn't really want to work with Platyna, and they certainly no longer wanted to work under her. Leaving was their choice, they were not slaves, they were volunteer employees of Platyna's enterprise. But when employees leave, they don't have the right to take the enterprise's property and digital IP with them. They don't have the right to take a copy, either. If they do that, it is called STEALING. It couldn't be any more clear. No matter what Elven or Bjorn say on the subject, even as founders and owners of the DNS (Elven), they have every right to point the DNS elsewhere, but they have ZERO right to sanction the taking of data that is NOT their property. It was Platyna's property, by GPL licence under which this game is copylefted.

Basically, you are all playing, developing, GMing on stolen property. Those are just the facts, as I carefully outlined above. To understand it, you need to know what each person's limits are and how that translates into ownership. Follow the dots please, it is very clear. Platyna knew about this for a long time and did bring it up before. Personally, the way Platyna and her property were treated really rubbed me the wrong way and soured me on the game. I am a big believer in property rights. Maybe it would be nice if we lived in a different world where property rights were different, but this is the world we do live in.

Thank you veryape for your input and this is my reply, to you and the community.

Platyna wrote:you refused to put the original server on the client list.

IIRC "you" is not TMWC but 4144 because Platyna managed to make him angry or am I confusing things here?

wushin wrote:The domain was changed by Elvenprogrammer (TMW's Founder). Elvenprogrammer changed the IP for TMW to move from .net, then they transferred the domain to SPI (Software for the Public Interest http://spi-inc.org/) where only another non-profit, not any single person, can change, alter or move the domain. SPI also operates as our registar. (see below)

Platyna, We are 100% legitimate. Everything signed and sealed by SPI & Elvenprogrammer. It's all 100% within the control of TMW and no one else. Nothing was hijacked but freely given.

100% legitimate?
its for this reason you deleted my post about having the data for my own server?

But its nothing, for now i need some explanation Platyna.
In name of what Elvenprogrammer can transfer some data?
And dont talk to me about good and wrong i dont care, i want a simple answer ty.

Altus Institute wrote:

wushin wrote:The domain was changed by Elvenprogrammer (TMW's Founder). Elvenprogrammer changed the IP for TMW to move from .net, then they transferred the domain to SPI (Software for the Public Interest http://spi-inc.org/) where only another non-profit, not any single person, can change, alter or move the domain. SPI also operates as our registar. (see below)

Platyna, We are 100% legitimate. Everything signed and sealed by SPI & Elvenprogrammer. It's all 100% within the control of TMW and no one else. Nothing was hijacked but freely given.

100% legitimate?
its for this reason you deleted my post about having the data for my own server?

But its nothing, for now i need some explanation Platyna.
In name of what Elvenprogrammer can transfer some data?
And dont talk to me about good and wrong i dont care, i want a simple answer ty.

The data were given to me by Ultramichy with Bjorn and Elven permission. Then ElvenProgrammer along with Bjorn left the project and started their own and left me this data. It is like you would give or sell someone a car, then a person would use that car, care for it, buy parts, make repairs and then - when it is worth a lot of money, you come at a doorstep with thugs and let them take the keys and drive away, because it was once yours.

Adrena wrote:theres not one side, and what happens with my data is up to me* alone(that 1 of 3 points of view of a new emerging kognitive industry).
u need ask me if u do such things!!
beside that, platyna was never alone!
she has an opensource heart and im with her, i just whish this will be fine again.
im sure she doesn do this all on her own behalf, she stated this many times and i see* it.
why keep her away from such a project? shes a must* have!

Of course there is not one side, there are at least 2 sides to every story. But the fact remains, everyone in GHP wanted reorganize how they were working and the power structure within the project, while Platyna wanted to be in charge (a la Linus Torvalds). There is nothing wrong with that, and the project splitted - nothing that is uncommon in the open source/free software world.

What I say is that I think that because at the heart of the game people have their saved data, the ownership of that is not clearly (and check the wording here, i didn't say "clearly not") Platynas data imo. I think the people who generated that data owns it, you can always delete your chars here - thereby you own the data and have the option to delete it from the server.

Platyna: Just to be clear, I didn't do anything except play the game, ElvenProgrammer was the one who pointed the nameserver towards the new server.

I see both platynas server and themanaworld.org as "original servers". It was a split from one original to two originals. Others might not see it the same way as I do, but this is my view. The ones that made the copy and changed to the new host was everyone that was running the game back then imo. You can always check the first post about the server move to see who was involved at the time.

veryape wrote:

Adrena wrote:theres not one side, and what happens with my data is up to me* alone(that 1 of 3 points of view of a new emerging kognitive industry).
u need ask me if u do such things!!
beside that, platyna was never alone!
she has an opensource heart and im with her, i just whish this will be fine again.
im sure she doesn do this all on her own behalf, she stated this many times and i see* it.
why keep her away from such a project? shes a must* have!

Of course there is not one side, there are at least 2 sides to every story. But the fact remains, everyone in GHP wanted reorganize how they were working and the power structure within the project, while Platyna wanted to be in charge (a la Linus Torvalds). There is nothing wrong with that, and the project splitted - nothing that is uncommon in the open source/free software world.

What I say is that I think that because at the heart of the game people have their saved data, the ownership of that is not clearly (and check the wording here, i didn't say "clearly not") Platynas data imo. I think the people who generated that data owns it, you can always delete your chars here - thereby you own the data and have the option to delete it from the server.

Platyna: Just to be clear, I didn't do anything except play the game, ElvenProgrammer was the one who pointed the nameserver towards the new server.

I see both platynas server and themanaworld.org as "original servers". It was a split from one original to two originals. Others might not see it the same way as I do, but this is my view. The ones that made the copy and changed to the new host was everyone that was running the game back then imo. You can always check the first post about the server move to see who was involved at the time.

My server wasn't a split. And split is when you are creating a new server with new data and your own git/cvs/svn/whathever repository out of data that are licensed to you eg. opensource. Player data is not open source - it can't be - as the law forbids that - as these are personal data.

Platyna wrote:

veryape wrote:

Adrena wrote:theres not one side, and what happens with my data is up to me* alone(that 1 of 3 points of view of a new emerging kognitive industry).
u need ask me if u do such things!!
beside that, platyna was never alone!
she has an opensource heart and im with her, i just whish this will be fine again.
im sure she doesn do this all on her own behalf, she stated this many times and i see* it.
why keep her away from such a project? shes a must* have!

Of course there is not one side, there are at least 2 sides to every story. But the fact remains, everyone in GHP wanted reorganize how they were working and the power structure within the project, while Platyna wanted to be in charge (a la Linus Torvalds). There is nothing wrong with that, and the project splitted - nothing that is uncommon in the open source/free software world.

What I say is that I think that because at the heart of the game people have their saved data, the ownership of that is not clearly (and check the wording here, i didn't say "clearly not") Platynas data imo. I think the people who generated that data owns it, you can always delete your chars here - thereby you own the data and have the option to delete it from the server.

Platyna: Just to be clear, I didn't do anything except play the game, ElvenProgrammer was the one who pointed the nameserver towards the new server.

I see both platynas server and themanaworld.org as "original servers". It was a split from one original to two originals. Others might not see it the same way as I do, but this is my view. The ones that made the copy and changed to the new host was everyone that was running the game back then imo. You can always check the first post about the server move to see who was involved at the time.

My server wasn't a split. And split is when you are creating a new server with new data and your own git/cvs/svn/whathever repository out of data that are licensed to you eg. opensource. Player data is not open source - it can't be - as the law forbids that - as these are personal data.

Well then sue us. We could at least end this in a court. Instead of listening to you claim to own the projects data. Now please, take a week off to think about it platyna. I'll not have you slander us any longer.