Some monster's on the Brazil Server I found while digging

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MerlinX420
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Re: Some monster's on the Brazil Server I found while diggin

Post by MerlinX420 » 24 Apr 2011, 19:31

Meemxes wrote:
MerlinX420 wrote:I'm still going to try and make something like this for tmw but I'd imagine it's something beyond my skill but it doesn't hurt to have a challenge. The large land lizard I started isn't coming along very good because I'm trying to reproduce it in the correct perspective and well it's not really that easy. I can see why most pixel artist favor isometric works and this top down 45 is hard to do.
If you want to work on dragons or similar critters, I'll be happy to collaborate (in a few weeks) or leave it to you. I have plenty of other mob ideas to work on. :)

Taking stock there seem to be a few issues mentioned with the dragon: legal stuff, perspective, and shading. Even if we resolve the legal issue won't we basically have to remake the entire thing due to the other concerns? So let our official stance be that it's inspirational. We'll just be sure to change it enough so that the legality doesn't haunt us.

Is the dragon's style right? I know we want consistency, but to be honest I'm still a little confused about what style we're supposed to go for. For example I have some concept work for a smaller dragony or lizardy critter in a different style, and now I wonder if I'm on the wrong track.
vector fat lizard 01.png
I know the perspective isn't right and it needs a lot of work, but imagine I fix it up and make this proper pixel art (like I'm doing elsewhere). I had something vaguely SoM-like in mind: colorful and playful. Which dragony thing (if either) is more the TMWeA style?
None of them. This is isometric in perspective. You have the same problem with your little samurai. It's an isometric sprite and isn't a 2-D top down sprite. Your art is fine but the proportions are all wrong for TMW eA sprites.
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Re: Some monster's on the Brazil Server I found while diggin

Post by Meemxes » 24 Apr 2011, 21:31

MerlinX420 wrote:None of them. This is isometric in perspective. You have the same problem with your little samurai. It's an isometric sprite and isn't a 2-D top down sprite. Your art is fine but the proportions are all wrong for TMW eA sprites.
I was curious about the art style more so than the perspective, but you raise a point worth exploring.

In some cases I agree, as in the 3rd frame of the my dragon critter. That needs fixing. :oops: But there's a trick used in some other cases. The scorpion is an example of this: http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/ ... evelopment

On the horizontal frames, the scorpion orients it's body towards us. This technique is supposed to engage the user more. But the scorpion's actions still need to be directed sideways. This works well on the scorpion's attack frames, at least.

I'm trying to pull off something similar. Whether I'm succeeding or not... :) I agree that it is not plausible when the dragon is breathing fire on the player. For the samurai, it's convenient that real fighters orient themselves sideways with respect to their opponents. Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-MfTN4h ... re=related

If the perspective isn't clear now, I hope it will be when I finish the other directions. For instance the front:
sam_front.png
sam_front.png (8.2 KiB) Viewed 1697 times
Anyway, the direction of the characters' actions is determined by the four directions. As I understand things we have more leeway for the orientation of their bodies. Making them more engaging to the user is an important factor. I think we should do so when (and only when) it's plausible. It works in the scorpion's attack animations. I admit that it does not work in the left frame of my chubby dragon sketch.
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Re: Some monster's on the Brazil Server I found while diggin

Post by gor » 25 Apr 2011, 13:47

MerlinX420 wrote:
gor wrote:
MerlinX420 wrote:Yhea that was my original thought. It seems to be based off the monster skull helm. The textured is horrid and it's pillow shaded and kinda ugly. Once again the major problem with monsters seems to be this odd perspective we have locked ourselfs into. I'm going re-draw this with some better details for my server but doubt I could recreate this with the correct perspective needed for tmw. There's quite a few things that have been turned down solely on perspective. I think a monster in the air might not look too out of place like this but I'm not going to be as strict with my monster's. I'm still going to try and make something like this for tmw but I'd imagine it's something beyond my skill but it doesn't hurt to have a challenge. The large land lizard I started isn't coming along very good because I'm trying to reproduce it in the correct perspective and well it's not really that easy. I can see why most pixel artist favor isometric works and this top down 45 is hard to do. We really lack monsters in this game and I'm going to spend more time working on them once I finish my tileset projects. I didn't even consider the perspective when I looked at it. I seen it and was like ummm kinda cool I guess.
It seems to be based on the monster skull helm but you cannot be sure, only the original author knows that.
You cannot brand it as gpl only because it comes from another tmw server and tmw server code is gpl but not every server license the graphic under gpl.
Different servers have different rules, i don't see a single pixel which state that it's under gpl license even if it seems to be based on the monster skull helm, you must ask the original author to know the license.

You can use it if you like to deal with lawyers.
I'm well aware of the legal issues with content. I would of course contact the original author of it's status before ever suggesting it be used in TMW's eA Server even in an edited form. AFAIK most if not ALL other servers don't copyright there content to be only for there server and don't think it's even possible if they use a mix of GPL and copyrighted work, I highly doubt TMW ea or my server project would get sued or have to "deal with a lawyer" over this. Gor IDK who you are and as far as I'm concerned your just some noob who thinks he even has a slight clue about how things generally operate between artists involved in TMW related projects. This forum is for the discussion of graphics not legal issues regarding content licenses. If your going to bother to comment make it about the graphics and not some legal B.S.

Good-day Sir, and get off my lawn.
A noob in pixel art like you that can just make frankensteins, if you even know what that means, shouldn't even comment a circle, i saw your works and if you don't use other people's work you are not able to achieve anything good, an example is your land lizard which is the bigest crap that i ever saw http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... and+lizard , this is the reason why you lurk and get other people's art the lamest thing that an artist can do. The reason why the graphic of this game did not evolve in all these years lies in amateurs like you that think to know how to draw, people that comment other works with no respect, calling it garbage or making cocky posts with no content only saying it's crap.

Do you want some pixel art about a dragon? there you go, i only made the head it took just 15 minutes, it's not really detailed but it's good enough to teach something to a noob in pixel art which you are, i won't spend more time to talk and show to an arrogant person like you that think to know everything and which is quite far away to know about pixel art.

Image

This is a dragon start, you can edit, adapt it, call it garbage or whatever you do as usual, i don't really care of your comments.

Learn to pixel before comment other people's art also learn that if you do, you must prove that you are skilled enough to talk, otherwise you will be considered just a lamer which is what, in my opinion, you actually are.
One of the many reasons because good pixel artists leave this project is due to people like you, noobs in pixel art that comment pixel art also the good artists leave this project because they are too good to waste time with people like you and i'm out of here as well.

I'm not the only one that think that this project is just a waste of time, lurking on the forum i found this post.
http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 892#p10892
Jetryl worked on The battle for wesnoth, the graphic of The battle for wesnoth grew and today is quite impressive for a free game also it's opensource as The Mana World so don't write as usual it's made by volunteers because in The battle for wesnoth, artists are working as volunteers too.
The graphic of The Mana World instead is still stucked and after 6 years the sprite sheet of the character didn't change, no new actions just the old poses, walk, sit, dead, attack by sword and by bow.

Good luck with your dragon you will need a miracle.

Edit:
I'm also quite aware of how things generally operate between artists involved in TMW related projects this post on the forum of The battle for wesnoth explain a lot about it http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 6&start=60
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Re: Some monster's on the Brazil Server I found while diggin

Post by Wombat » 26 Apr 2011, 10:20

Yes, we encourage collaborative work on art, which includes "frankensteins" and using others' artwork to make new art. We will continue to do so, we will continue to encourage others to learn art by mimicking what exists, by borrowing what exists and by making new artwork that can operate with the old artwork. Our current art practices have revamped this project and I applaud these efforts. Our practices will not change.
Current character is "Abolish".
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Re: Some monster's on the Brazil Server I found while diggin

Post by Wombat » 26 Apr 2011, 11:29

After reading through this issue more, I hope that gor doesn't leave, but I do hope the hostilities can end. What I'd prefer is that we recognize this is a volunteer project that isn't Battle of Wesnoth, It isn't Freegeek and isn't a college radio station. It is The Mana World. This project is driven forward by many who have not been around long, as many of the development team prior to 2009 focus more exclusively on Manaserv, the Mana client and TMW Content Release 1, all of which aren't TMW-eA, but rather our more consistent, but not fully realized older brother.

Some of those involved on art development have had formal training. Most haven't. Some have picked up artistic jargon from these forums, from a little research and from some old hands giving advice at pixel art. We tend to aim towards encouraging our artists, motivating them to continue to grow better on our forums. Some people can slowly get better while others discover that pixel art isn't their thing.

Should we be aiming to gain more professional artists? Yes. Should this be at the expense of new artist motivation through a constant barrage of put downs, disses, feces talk, over-critical digging and so on? No. Is there a happy medium? Yes. People can present critical thoughts on art without destroying the artist. Things can be communicated in ways where the problem is exposed in the art so the artist can fix it and would want to.
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Re: Some monster's on the Brazil Server I found while diggin

Post by Indigovox » 26 Apr 2011, 21:43

MerlinX420 wrote:I found these 2 monster sheets while digging around for stuff and I'm impressed by there quality. I should hunt around and see what else they might have. I think I know what monster the skull helm might have come from. XD It seems to have been that basis of the green dragon. Considering we really need some larger type monsters this would fit well. I'm even thinking of re-drawing it and makeing a varient of it. Something more dark and sinister perhaps a dark grey with some red eyes and accents. The rat seems kinda large imo. Looks more like the size of a wombat or a wolverine or something. (IDK but I might have grabbed a resized version of it and I'll go see if I can dig for the proper sized one.)

Image
Guys, the Dragon was made by TMW-BR through a contest. We had two winners the Fafinha and the Karyuudan. If you wish to see the process of creating the dragon click below:
http://forums.themanaworld.com.br/viewt ... f=34&t=797
The credits belong to the dragon Fafinha and me.

I drew the Mouse, but I just picked up a pose of NPC, which was shown at the forum TMW-BR by an employee. The employee tricked me by saying that it was he who designed the Rat. And for my ignorance finished completing the other positions. Here is the Rat:
http://forums.themanaworld.com.br/viewt ... =34&t=1172
Forgive my ignorant innocence. Now we discover that the mouse belongs to RP6-M4K3R, we will create another mouse this week to tackle plagiarism.
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Re: Some monster's on the Brazil Server I found while diggin

Post by Wombat » 27 Apr 2011, 09:37

Indigovox wrote:
MerlinX420 wrote:I found these 2 monster sheets while digging around for stuff and I'm impressed by there quality. I should hunt around and see what else they might have. I think I know what monster the skull helm might have come from. XD It seems to have been that basis of the green dragon. Considering we really need some larger type monsters this would fit well. I'm even thinking of re-drawing it and makeing a varient of it. Something more dark and sinister perhaps a dark grey with some red eyes and accents. The rat seems kinda large imo. Looks more like the size of a wombat or a wolverine or something. (IDK but I might have grabbed a resized version of it and I'll go see if I can dig for the proper sized one.)

Image
Guys, the Dragon was made by TMW-BR through a contest. We had two winners the Fafinha and the Karyuudan. If you wish to see the process of creating the dragon click below:
http://forums.themanaworld.com.br/viewt ... f=34&t=797
The credits belong to the dragon Fafinha and me.

I drew the Mouse, but I just picked up a pose of NPC, which was shown at the forum TMW-BR by an employee. The employee tricked me by saying that it was he who designed the Rat. And for my ignorance finished completing the other positions. Here is the Rat:
http://forums.themanaworld.com.br/viewt ... =34&t=1172
Forgive my ignorant innocence. Now we discover that the mouse belongs to RP6-M4K3R, we will create another mouse this week to tackle plagiarism.
Thank you very much for the clarification. It helps a great deal to know what is going on with other servers' art.
Current character is "Abolish".
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Re: Some monster's on the Brazil Server I found while diggin

Post by Crush » 27 Apr 2011, 11:56

MerlinX420 wrote:AFAIK most if not ALL other servers don't copyright there content to be only for there server and don't think it's even possible if they use a mix of GPL and copyrighted work, I highly doubt TMW ea or my server project would get sued or have to "deal with a lawyer" over this. Gor IDK who you are and as far as I'm concerned your just some noob who thinks he even has a slight clue about how things generally operate between artists involved in TMW related projects. This forum is for the discussion of graphics not legal issues regarding content licenses. If your going to bother to comment make it about the graphics and not some legal B.S.

Good-day Sir, and get off my lawn.
Merlin, you really need to be more aware of legal issues.

While it is true that the artists of other servers either don't care when other servers use their work or when they care they don't have the power for a lawsuit, there is also always the danger of inadvertently getting material from commercial sources into the game when taking stuff from other servers.

Most projects are a lot less aware of legal issues than us and include intellectual property from companies which are large, alive and trigger-happy about lawsuits without second thought.

Besides, there are servers which do not want their content to be used by other servers (I remember some aethyra contributors to get very angry when the topic came up here), and doing it anyway is a real dick move.
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Re: Some monster's on the Brazil Server I found while diggin

Post by Bertram » 27 Apr 2011, 13:13

Hi,
Besides, there are servers which do not want their content to be used by other servers (I remember some aethyra contributors to get very angry when the topic came up here), and doing it anyway is a real dick move.
So true. I think Tametomo wil never forgive me about the fact that I inspired my code from his when dealing with SDL 32bit alpha handling without ringing his bell first. An I wish I could have talked to him before that.
Hence, please think twice about that. It only depresses people uselessly.

Best regards.
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Re: Some monster's on the Brazil Server I found while diggin

Post by Wombat » 27 Apr 2011, 20:22

If you participate in the GPL community, having an ego about your content being used by others is the dick move.
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Re: Some monster's on the Brazil Server I found while diggin

Post by Indigovox » 30 Apr 2011, 16:00

Wombat wrote:
Indigovox wrote:
MerlinX420 wrote:I found these 2 monster sheets while digging around for stuff and I'm impressed by there quality. I should hunt around and see what else they might have. I think I know what monster the skull helm might have come from. XD It seems to have been that basis of the green dragon. Considering we really need some larger type monsters this would fit well. I'm even thinking of re-drawing it and makeing a varient of it. Something more dark and sinister perhaps a dark grey with some red eyes and accents. The rat seems kinda large imo. Looks more like the size of a wombat or a wolverine or something. (IDK but I might have grabbed a resized version of it and I'll go see if I can dig for the proper sized one.)

Image
Guys, the Dragon was made by TMW-BR through a contest. We had two winners the Fafinha and the Karyuudan. If you wish to see the process of creating the dragon click below:
http://forums.themanaworld.com.br/viewt ... f=34&t=797
The credits belong to the dragon Fafinha and me.

I drew the Mouse, but I just picked up a pose of NPC, which was shown at the forum TMW-BR by an employee. The employee tricked me by saying that it was he who designed the Rat. And for my ignorance finished completing the other positions. Here is the Rat:
http://forums.themanaworld.com.br/viewt ... =34&t=1172
Forgive my ignorant innocence. Now we discover that the mouse belongs to RP6-M4K3R, we will create another mouse this week to tackle plagiarism.
Thank you very much for the clarification. It helps a great deal to know what is going on with other servers' art.
Image The new mouse is already being drawn in TMW-BR.
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Re: Some monster's on the Brazil Server I found while diggin

Post by MerlinX420 » 01 May 2011, 01:06

Wombat wrote:If you participate in the GPL community, having an ego about your content being used by others is the dick move.
That was a proper why to say what I meant. gor came into the thread spouting stuff about gpl legal issues and kinda took offense. He stated that he couldn't "see" one pixel that proved that it was based from the monster helm even thou the outline is an exact copy of it.
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Computer games don't affect kids, I mean if Pac Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music. Has anybody seen this princess I'm looking for?
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Re: Some monster's on the Brazil Server I found while diggin

Post by MerlinX420 » 01 May 2011, 01:19

Meemxes wrote:
MerlinX420 wrote:None of them. This is isometric in perspective. You have the same problem with your little samurai. It's an isometric sprite and isn't a 2-D top down sprite. Your art is fine but the proportions are all wrong for TMW eA sprites.
I was curious about the art style more so than the perspective, but you raise a point worth exploring.

In some cases I agree, as in the 3rd frame of the my dragon critter. That needs fixing. :oops: But there's a trick used in some other cases. The scorpion is an example of this: http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/ ... evelopment

On the horizontal frames, the scorpion orients it's body towards us. This technique is supposed to engage the user more. But the scorpion's actions still need to be directed sideways. This works well on the scorpion's attack frames, at least.

I'm trying to pull off something similar. Whether I'm succeeding or not... :) I agree that it is not plausible when the dragon is breathing fire on the player. For the samurai, it's convenient that real fighters orient themselves sideways with respect to their opponents. Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-MfTN4h ... re=related

If the perspective isn't clear now, I hope it will be when I finish the other directions. For instance the front:
sam_front.png
Anyway, the direction of the characters' actions is determined by the four directions. As I understand things we have more leeway for the orientation of their bodies. Making them more engaging to the user is an important factor. I think we should do so when (and only when) it's plausible. It works in the scorpion's attack animations. I admit that it does not work in the left frame of my chubby dragon sketch.
Nice. Now you've got the right idea and kinda seen what I saw. Sorry to be so blunt about it. I was kinda perturbed by an earlier post.
MerlinX420
Computer games don't affect kids, I mean if Pac Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music. Has anybody seen this princess I'm looking for?
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Re: Some monster's on the Brazil Server I found while diggin

Post by MerlinX420 » 01 May 2011, 01:44

gor wrote: A noob in pixel art like you that can just make frankensteins, if you even know what that means, shouldn't even comment a circle, i saw your works and if you don't use other people's work you are not able to achieve anything good, an example is your land lizard which is the bigest crap that i ever saw http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... and+lizard , this is the reason why you lurk and get other people's art the lamest thing that an artist can do. The reason why the graphic of this game did not evolve in all these years lies in amateurs like you that think to know how to draw, people that comment other works with no respect, calling it garbage or making cocky posts with no content only saying it's crap.

Do you want some pixel art about a dragon? there you go, i only made the head it took just 15 minutes, it's not really detailed but it's good enough to teach something to a noob in pixel art which you are, i won't spend more time to talk and show to an arrogant person like you that think to know everything and which is quite far away to know about pixel art.

Image

This is a dragon start, you can edit, adapt it, call it garbage or whatever you do as usual, i don't really care of your comments.

Learn to pixel before comment other people's art also learn that if you do, you must prove that you are skilled enough to talk, otherwise you will be considered just a lamer which is what, in my opinion, you actually are.
One of the many reasons because good pixel artists leave this project is due to people like you, noobs in pixel art that comment pixel art also the good artists leave this project because they are too good to waste time with people like you and i'm out of here as well.

I'm not the only one that think that this project is just a waste of time, lurking on the forum i found this post.
http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 892#p10892
Jetryl worked on The battle for wesnoth, the graphic of The battle for wesnoth grew and today is quite impressive for a free game also it's opensource as The Mana World so don't write as usual it's made by volunteers because in The battle for wesnoth, artists are working as volunteers too.
The graphic of The Mana World instead is still stucked and after 6 years the sprite sheet of the character didn't change, no new actions just the old poses, walk, sit, dead, attack by sword and by bow.

Good luck with your dragon you will need a miracle.

Edit:
I'm also quite aware of how things generally operate between artists involved in TMW related projects this post on the forum of The battle for wesnoth explain a lot about it http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 6&start=60
I never claimed to "know it all" or did I ever claim to be a "pixel artist". Sure I'm just capable of making Frankensteins but at least I'm doing something instead of just sitting here complaining. I take raw art and edit it into something useful or edit into something else entirely. Once again the ego of the good pixel artist comes into play. "Your too good...."
If a "lamer" noob like me is the reason why we don't have any good pixel artists then I'LL LEAVE , but you've already made your decision and I doubt me refraining from working on or commenting on stuff will change that. I didn't know I had to have skill to state what is usually obvious. I guess some people are so afraid of driving off good talent that they just refrain from commenting or suggesting anything. I don't need a miracle. I need time and dedication to achieve what I want and I have both.
Your reference post by Jetryl did state one thing that I believe in and is kinda why I even started to "try" and mess with TMW art.
"A warning to you - the chief reason you don't have many "1337 artistz" working for you is because you guys don't seem to be doing much on your end. If you want projects like this to succeed, you need to demonstate your own committment to it. I mean - grab a brush and start_fucking_pixeling already. Don't whine about "I'm not talented" or "I'm not as experienced as you." Bullshit - I didn't get good by talent - I got good because of two things:

1] Force of will
2] Absolute willingness to accept and change, but also to seek out and identify my own mistakes. None of this prissy "It looks better saturated and I'm right about that" bullshit that crush has been whining about on his god-awful woodland tileset. Learning from mistakes is a touchy thing, largely due to the ambiguity about what constitutes one in the first place, but despite being very difficult, it's absolutely essential."

If I make something that sucks, I'm well aware of it and don't expect anyone to tell me otherwise. Yes my Land Lizard is a piece of crap.
MerlinX420
Computer games don't affect kids, I mean if Pac Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music. Has anybody seen this princess I'm looking for?
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