More love for warriors

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Kazenawa
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by Kazenawa » 05 Jan 2013, 11:07

bell chick wrote:and yet at the same timne archers level up safely from a distance and you have no problem with this
As far as i know, when there are none warrior shielding, none archer is able to level up safely from distance.
It's possible sometimes, with some stats i've never written as a remember, to freeze a monster. But most of the time, you can freeze only one powerful with those freezing stats, and you might know that, especially in graveyard, monsters aren't alone, or not for a long time.
Then, when you hunt as a group of archers, it's real that you kill monsters quickly, but you don't get that much exp at all, and monsters aren't frozen, that's not called "killing from distance" if you don't move, and that's still dangerous enough to make you die.

Moreover, i'm you're not my specific target, but it seems that some warriors don't know how to count...
Ok, when you hunt in group, with archers, you get less exp per monster killed, but as you kill them really faster, you certainly get way more exp than if you were fighting alone. Before to complain, those kind of warriors should know to count.
Your moaning about your leveling time, as far as i know i contains the word "time", so don't reason with exp, but with exp/min. This way you'll clearly see that, even fighting among a group of archers, you'll clearly get more exp/min than if you were fighting alone.
However, it's clear that you could certainly get more if you were fighting with a group of only warriors. But, in my opinion, it would be sad to see such separation between classes...
radiant wrote:In a game where dying carries no penalty except for the costs involved in traveling back to your preferred experience-grinding map (if any), does "safe" really mean anything?
Hum, i've to admit that it doesn't mean a lot...
Though, each player that have played for at least one year is able to get one or more Hitchhiker's Towels, if he hasn't bought one before. Once you've one (and don't say than getting one is hard), travelling back to your preferred experience-grinding map costs nothing, excepted the cost to go to Tulimshare to re-dye your towel(s) once they're undyed, and especially for warriors who even don't need to buy anything once they've got their armor set.
Again, you're principally talking about levelling time, and, as far as i know, you can level up quickly only in graveyard, in Candor or in Nivalis against yetis. Only Candor isn't covered by the towels, and the cost is the same for everyone.


Some warriors complains about the cost of a full armor set, but what's strange is that i've never seen an archer complaining about the costs of arrows, which is, if you plan to level up at a high level, way higher than a full armor set...
A piece of advice... Those warriors i've targeted : stop moaning this way, be a bit more kind and sociable, and i'm sure that, if you ask for it, you'll find archers able to party with you and sacrify a part of their exp...
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Shainen
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by Shainen » 05 Jan 2013, 11:55

Just for the record: I've no complaints about the costs of my armor XD. Also my favorite game play is tanking for archers in GY.
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by Kazenawa » 05 Jan 2013, 12:47

Shainen wrote:Just for the record: I've no complaints about the costs of my armor XD.
I wasn't talking about you nor generally about warriors, hopefully it seems to be only a minority of them :)
Shainen wrote:Also my favorite game play is tanking for archers in GY.
I haven't a big experience of it, as i've nearly never played a warrior but i've just make mine, and even if i can't protect well due to my low level (70), i admit that it's nice to protect the others yes :)
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by bell chick » 05 Jan 2013, 18:49

Kazenawa wrote:
bell chick wrote:and yet at the same timne archers level up safely from a distance and you have no problem with this
As far as i know, when there are none warrior shielding, none archer is able to level up safely from distance.
It's possible sometimes, with some stats i've never written as a remember, to freeze a monster. But most of the time, you can freeze only one powerful with those freezing stats, and you might know that, especially in graveyard, monsters aren't alone, or not for a long time.
Then, when you hunt as a group of archers, it's real that you kill monsters quickly, but you don't get that much exp at all, and monsters aren't frozen, that's not called "killing from distance" if you don't move, and that's still dangerous enough to make you die.

Moreover, i'm you're not my specific target, but it seems that some warriors don't know how to count...
Ok, when you hunt in group, with archers, you get less exp per monster killed, but as you kill them really faster, you certainly get way more exp than if you were fighting alone. Before to complain, those kind of warriors should know to count.
Your moaning about your leveling time, as far as i know i contains the word "time", so don't reason with exp, but with exp/min. This way you'll clearly see that, even fighting among a group of archers, you'll clearly get more exp/min than if you were fighting alone.
However, it's clear that you could certainly get more if you were fighting with a group of only warriors. But, in my opinion, it would be sad to see such separation between classes...
radiant wrote:In a game where dying carries no penalty except for the costs involved in traveling back to your preferred experience-grinding map (if any), does "safe" really mean anything?
Hum, i've to admit that it doesn't mean a lot...
Though, each player that have played for at least one year is able to get one or more Hitchhiker's Towels, if he hasn't bought one before. Once you've one (and don't say than getting one is hard), travelling back to your preferred experience-grinding map costs nothing, excepted the cost to go to Tulimshare to re-dye your towel(s) once they're undyed, and especially for warriors who even don't need to buy anything once they've got their armor set.
Again, you're principally talking about levelling time, and, as far as i know, you can level up quickly only in graveyard, in Candor or in Nivalis against yetis. Only Candor isn't covered by the towels, and the cost is the same for everyone.


Some warriors complains about the cost of a full armor set, but what's strange is that i've never seen an archer complaining about the costs of arrows, which is, if you plan to level up at a high level, way higher than a full armor set...
A piece of advice... Those warriors i've targeted : stop moaning this way, be a bit more kind and sociable, and i'm sure that, if you ask for it, you'll find archers able to party with you and sacrify a part of their exp...
its not moaning its asking class balance to be looked at and the classes as of now dont have balance. archers aree way overpowered warriors a bit underpowered.as for armor cost i think its fine or should even be more because once you get that youre basically done with equipment as a warrior and such things should take time. you dont want the whole game masterede in a week :)
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by Frost » 05 Jan 2013, 19:07

bell chick wrote: its not moaning its asking class balance to be looked at and the classes as of now dont have balance. archers aree way overpowered warriors a bit underpowered.
You've presented some strong arguments that balance is also unfair to mages.

Oddly, some people do play as warrior or as mage. Like me, they're probably too naïve to understand that it's no fun.
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by Kazenawa » 05 Jan 2013, 20:23

bell chick wrote:archers aree way overpowered warriors a bit underpowered.
I doubt it's still the case once you've passed level 90 or maybe 95.
I'm not a warrior specialist at all, but i've seen high level warriors doing a lot of damages in a really short amount of time, this without any potion. One, level 99, was doing around 340 damages per hit, and the delay between his hits was rather really short.
Also, it was before that the new helmet was released with Illia quest. I'd like to see him again to watch the effect this new helmet has on him :lol:
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by bell chick » 06 Jan 2013, 09:36

one way i see to even things out without making warriors a "god" class is to grant a [ercenatge of hits taken as xp. this could give further incentive of warriors as the protectors much the same way that mages get xp for playing the healer. this number would have to be well balanced and probably limited per enemy on how much xp could be given this way to avoid exploit but i think it would help improve the teamwork triangle by ming warriors not so much the not cared about class. with more xp youd get more warriors which would mean more archers and mages would receive protection

i unederstand it could upset calance to have warriors deal incredible damage and have that high defense although i find it a little odd. this os the first game ive seen where all incentives tend to want to lean you to archer. not realistic either as arrows eouldnt do as much damage as sword wounds npr would you be able to shhoot a bow like a machine gun
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by Kazenawa » 06 Jan 2013, 10:58

bell chick wrote:not realistic either as arrows eouldnt do as much damage as sword wounds npr
If you fight against somebody or something who wear an heavy armor, an arrow certainly does way more damages than a sword wound.
The fact is that it causes death most of the time.
As far as i know, it's way easier to block a sword attack than an arrow, and you can kill with a sword only if you hit at the right place (exemple : articulations, neck, in the helmet), which is pretty difficult.
An arrow can easily go through an armor or be shot right in the head if the archer is quite experienced.
Try to peak someone in the helmet with your sword... If he's not an asshole you'll certainly be killed before him...
bell chick wrote:would you be able to shhoot a bow like a machine gun
You probably know nothing in archery as i can read this... Then maybe that you should have a sight at those links...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o9RGnujlkI
And the most incredible one :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJyoQtYrn4U
Even Legolas can't handle this rythm...

Now please stop saying that speed archers are cheated with their speed or i don't know what about that, because, even with potions, they shoot at about the same speed than in this video.
That's not because you see most of the time shitty archers that it's not possible to be a machine gun, although this guy has trained a lot...
Of course, these ancient techniques have been forgotten, because that's way easier to pull the trigger than to shoot an arrow, but that's certainly not as much talentuous ! :lol:
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by Shainen » 06 Jan 2013, 11:12

Kazen,
Thanks for the video links. That is super cool!! :D Now if only they could carry 10,000 arrows around with them LOL.
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by Kazenawa » 06 Jan 2013, 11:25

Shainen wrote:Kazen,
Thanks for the video links. That is super cool!! :D Now if only they could carry 10,000 arrows around with them LOL.
You're welcome :)
Yeah i found it cool, i thought it wasn't really possible even if i knew that some techniques about speed exists.
Hum yes, that's the main problem... But a warrior can't fight with a full armor, actually it's made for when you're on a horse only... It can't also wear 50 bottles of water :lol:
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by Ablu » 06 Jan 2013, 11:42

Well this is Fantasy. No need for 100% realism.

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Re: More love for warriors

Post by radiant » 06 Jan 2013, 11:50

bell chick wrote:one way i see to even things out without making warriors a "god" class is to grant a [ercenatge of hits taken as xp. this could give further incentive of warriors as the protectors much the same way that mages get xp for playing the healer. this number would have to be well balanced and probably limited per enemy on how much xp could be given this way to avoid exploit but i think it would help improve the teamwork triangle by ming warriors not so much the not cared about class. with more xp youd get more warriors which would mean more archers and mages would receive protection
This can only work if you rewrite the rules currently aimed at botting. If it becomes profitable for me to stand on Jack O's ledge and leave the client unattended for hours without attacking, they'll likely have to broaden the definition of "botting" so that even doing nothing at all can qualify, and that's just stupid.
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by chaslinux » 06 Jan 2013, 14:38

Kazenawa wrote:Also, to my opinion, it's way easier to make a bow and a poor armor than a beautiful heavy plate and helmet no ? For a bow you need only some good wood and a nice string, for the forest armor only some nice components, non-expensive (it's not supposed to save your life), whereas a warrior needs something heavy, with excellent defensive materials, something that have to save his entire life !
Here's where it gets funny. I *think* it could actually be much more difficult to make a high quality bow than light plate or chain armor. It's not as simple as stringing wood from one end of a stick to another. Most bows (modern and older) are a composite of a couple of woods (I read a book from 1930 or so on the topic of bow making), some of the wood very expensive. The wood is bent and pressurized for weeks for shape then bonded together. The process takes a long time and you have to get things just perfect or it doesn't bond. Even if you're not bonding, it still takes weeks to shape the wood and that still has to be done correctly. Lost the book, a shame, found it in a flea market when I visited New Jersey.

I'm sure you're still correct about the cost still, since royalty wore armor, but your average peasant couldn't unless they were part of a guard. On the other hand peasants could have a bow, at least fictionally (Robin Hood and his band of merry men == archers).

What I sometimes have trouble thinking is if an arrow could really do more damage than a sword (which could cleave a person in two). I suppose with enough Strength. Has anyone done a comparison between 100 DEX with bow and 100 STR with sword? Is that even a fair comparison?

In looking trying to find a faster way to level I stumbled upon a funny way to make cash (level 49 at the time). Giant Maggots. Sure most people go for red slimes. Giant Maggots however drop cactus drinks (25gp/ea) and cactus potions (35gp/ea) as well as the occasional coin bag (500gp). If you can handle red slimes they're a better option, especially in the Terranite cave. If not about 10 minutes (or less) can net you over 1300gp with a bit of luck. Unfortunately giant maggots don't spawn fast, so you end up spending most of your time waiting.
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by bell chick » 06 Jan 2013, 18:23

Kazenawa wrote:
bell chick wrote:not realistic either as arrows eouldnt do as much damage as sword wounds npr
If you fight against somebody or something who wear an heavy armor, an arrow certainly does way more damages than a sword wound.
The fact is that it causes death most of the time.
As far as i know, it's way easier to block a sword attack than an arrow, and you can kill with a sword only if you hit at the right place (exemple : articulations, neck, in the helmet), which is pretty difficult.
An arrow can easily go through an armor or be shot right in the head if the archer is quite experienced.
Try to peak someone in the helmet with your sword... If he's not an ******* you'll certainly be killed before him...
bell chick wrote:would you be able to shhoot a bow like a machine gun
You probably know nothing in archery as i can read this... Then maybe that you should have a sight at those links...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o9RGnujlkI
And the most incredible one :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJyoQtYrn4U
Even Legolas can't handle this rythm...

Now please stop saying that speed archers are cheated with their speed or i don't know what about that, because, even with potions, they shoot at about the same speed than in this video.
That's not because you see most of the time shitty archers that it's not possible to be a machine gun, although this guy has trained a lot...
Of course, these ancient techniques have been forgotten, because that's way easier to pull the trigger than to shoot an arrow, but that's certainly not as much talentuous ! :lol:
i know more qabout archery than you think. i own a very nice compound bow and have placed second in a few competitions
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by bell chick » 06 Jan 2013, 18:27

radiant wrote:
bell chick wrote:one way i see to even things out without making warriors a "god" class is to grant a [ercenatge of hits taken as xp. this could give further incentive of warriors as the protectors much the same way that mages get xp for playing the healer. this number would have to be well balanced and probably limited per enemy on how much xp could be given this way to avoid exploit but i think it would help improve the teamwork triangle by ming warriors not so much the not cared about class. with more xp youd get more warriors which would mean more archers and mages would receive protection
This can only work if you rewrite the rules currently aimed at botting. If it becomes profitable for me to stand on Jack O's ledge and leave the client unattended for hours without attacking, they'll likely have to broaden the definition of "botting" so that even doing nothing at all can qualify, and that's just stupid.
this is why i said cap the number of hits covered by xp. i agree it may not be the best way but lets face it this game is primarily an xp race. the warrior shouldnt be left too far behind
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