More love for warriors

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Frost
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by Frost » 06 Jan 2013, 19:40

Different people enjoy different styles of play.
It's true that game play isn't perfectly balanced, but if it were really lopsided then we'd see that reflected in the choices people make in the game. In fact, all the major styles of play are actively used in the game now.

If someone prefers a certain style, that's not an indication that something is wrong. If someone else prefers a different style, that's not an indication they're any less clever.

Personally, I find that different styles suit different moods. Over the years, I have built a few Speed archers, some Mallet Eye archers, a high-damage (Raging) warrior, a few Speed warriors, a tank, a high-damage (Int and Agil) mage, a tanked mage (Int, Luck, and Vit), a healing/buffs mage, and some "fun" role-play characters.

In this game, the winners are those who have the most fun. :)
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Kazenawa
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by Kazenawa » 06 Jan 2013, 19:46

Ablu wrote:Well this is Fantasy. No need for 100% realism.
I totally agree with you and it would change this debate a lot if it would be seriously taken in consideration by each parts.
chaslinux wrote:Here's where it gets funny. I *think* it could actually be much more difficult to make a high quality bow than light plate or chain armor. It's not as simple as stringing wood from one end of a stick to another. Most bows (modern and older) are a composite of a couple of woods (I read a book from 1930 or so on the topic of bow making), some of the wood very expensive. The wood is bent and pressurized for weeks for shape then bonded together. The process takes a long time and you have to get things just perfect or it doesn't bond. Even if you're not bonding, it still takes weeks to shape the wood and that still has to be done correctly. Lost the book, a shame, found it in a flea market when I visited New Jersey.
Working with wood requires a lot of patience, rigor and thoroughness, but that's the same for metallurgy... It requires an alloy supposed to resist to the environment your in, and, as it's an armor, strong enough to different types of attacks, without being too heavy. But the hardest part is that it has to be wearable without causing too much irritations or other depleasant things like that... And as each person is different...
The two things are actually completely different, i doubt we can really compare them.
chaslinux wrote:What I sometimes have trouble thinking is if an arrow could really do more damage than a sword (which could cleave a person in two). I suppose with enough Strength.
Hum yes, that's again actually two completely different fighting techniques, and each of them have fatal hits.
Though, even with enough strenght, a sword certainly can't cut a person in two, especially if the concerned person is wearing an armor. A sword is really too thick and not enough keen for it. The only thing that can really cut a person in two is a high-quality katana. And even with it and without an armor, your technique has to be completely perfect to cut even bones. That's why with an armor i doubt it's possible.
Frost wrote:Different people enjoy different styles of play.
It's true that game play isn't perfectly balanced, but if it were really lopsided then we'd see that reflected in the choices people make in the game. In fact, all the major styles of play are actively used in the game now.

If someone prefers a certain style, that's not an indication that something is wrong. If someone else prefers a different style, that's not an indication they're any less clever.

Personally, I find that different styles suit different moods. Over the years, I have built a few Speed archers, some Mallet Eye archers, a high-damage (Raging) warrior, a few Speed warriors, a tank, a high-damage (Int and Agil) mage, a tanked mage (Int, Luck, and Vit), a healing/buffs mage, and some "fun" role-play characters.

In this game, the winners are those who have the most fun. :)
Ah that's a nice conclusion in my opinion, i began to be tired to debate on it, but i think that some nice ideas or arguments have been given by everyone :)
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by bell chick » 06 Jan 2013, 20:23

but a sword also even with armor crushed bones. somethin an arrow couldnt do. even chain maile would stop an arrow thugh the fighter would still be wounded . as for seeing lopsidedness in the game play you can. until a few minutes ago i was in the gy. i was the one mage with about 5-7 archers and no warriors
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by Frost » 06 Jan 2013, 20:50

bell chick wrote:until a few minutes ago i was in the gy. i was the one mage with about 5-7 archers and no warriors
That's because we're all by the crypt area....
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by bell chick » 06 Jan 2013, 21:12

Frost wrote:
bell chick wrote:until a few minutes ago i was in the gy. i was the one mage with about 5-7 archers and no warriors
That's because we're all by the crypt area....
they are now they werent at the time
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by o11c » 07 Jan 2013, 18:31

The nice thing about being an archer is that you *can* solo in the graveyard, even at level 40 ... but because of the way XP is calculated, it's better to do it in a group of 2 or 3. As archers, you can afford to pick one target each but hit the other's target just once (especially if you're at different levels, so one person doesn't get all the drops)
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chaslinux
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by chaslinux » 09 Jan 2013, 01:35

Kazenawa wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o9RGnujlkI
And the most incredible one :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJyoQtYrn4U
Even Legolas can't handle this rythm...
The videos are awesome! I liked the first one because she almost looks like an elf. When I was young I went to camp and came in 2nd out of about 60 campers in an archery competition (I never touched a bow before). The person who beat me cheated in a manner, he brought his own miniature crossbow (I used the plastic recurve bows provided by the camp). I still don't know how I did it because a little later I finished dead last out of about 20 people shooting .22's at a range. (Larger target with archery... but still) Never really got interested in archery though.

It's an interesting conversation for sure and I like all the answers people have put forth. These videos really are fun though...
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by Travolta » 13 Jan 2013, 10:13

If warriors want more XP, they should party with archers and enable XP sharing. Protection for XP :-)
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by bell chick » 15 Jan 2013, 01:12

i have been thinking on this and i think the answer to help the warrior without overpowering the class is new armor. not with greater defense though instead maybe ever so slightly less than warlord with decent stat bonuses. when you think about warrior is the thinnest spread in stats out of all the classes yet its the only one that gets no real bonuses. the stats are sprread enough so an armor with say plus 3 strength and and a helm with say 5 luck wont put its power over that of the other classes. instead it would just get the warrior closer to being balanced with the other 2
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by mistergrey » 15 Jan 2013, 21:16

I also think some more warrior specific gear is needed, but I disagree with some of your logic (@ bell chick). The warrior "class" is the most thinly spread when it comes to stats, and there is not much gear that increases the strength stat. I would love to see something available fairly early with such a bonus.

That said though, warriors are not meant to ever be "fully" balanced with the other two "classes" in a few ways. Being an archer or mage involves every attack costing something, so their damage potential is meant to be significantly higher than that of a warrior. While players can wear heavy armor as an archer or mage, this also means they sacrifice something important - magic attack, and taking equipment slots that could be used for stat boosting equipment instead. Also keep in mind that warriors have the greatest range of effective armor available to them already, even if some of that is aimed at lower levelled players.

I do think equipment that increases either strength, or dexterity, would be the safest thing to add to give warriors some extra edge without overdoing it. Though, I'd prefer it to be something other than chest armor because of what I said before. If it were up to me, I'd suggest a melee weapon with a dex bonus, to keep archers from using it to be even more powerful.
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by bell chick » 15 Jan 2013, 22:13

mistergrey wrote:I also think some more warrior specific gear is needed, but I disagree with some of your logic (@ bell chick). The warrior "class" is the most thinly spread when it comes to stats, and there is not much gear that increases the strength stat. I would love to see something available fairly early with such a bonus.

That said though, warriors are not meant to ever be "fully" balanced with the other two "classes" in a few ways. Being an archer or mage involves every attack costing something, so their damage potential is meant to be significantly higher than that of a warrior. While players can wear heavy armor as an archer or mage, this also means they sacrifice something important - magic attack, and taking equipment slots that could be used for stat boosting equipment instead. Also keep in mind that warriors have the greatest range of effective armor available to them already, even if some of that is aimed at lower levelled players.

I do think equipment that increases either strength, or dexterity, would be the safest thing to add to give warriors some extra edge without overdoing it. Though, I'd prefer it to be something other than chest armor because of what I said before. If it were up to me, I'd suggest a melee weapon with a dex bonus, to keep archers from using it to be even more powerful.
i do agree with you grey on everything but the point of archer attacks costing something. 1gp a shot to me is a non issue i guess if that acher goes for more expensive rounds but most archers i know opt for th cheapest possible. all im trying to do is figure out a way to give warriors some level ups and a few drops to make the class more practical
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by blackrazor » 15 Jan 2013, 23:19

My suggestion to give warriors more love: Remove the vitality malus on the Raging skill.

No other skill has such a malus, so why must warriors have it? Especially since warriors tank (so they need vitality), and also because the Raging skill builds off of strength, but only if it multiplies with the crit% from luck and dex, so really all three stats must be high in order to see a nice critical effect. This makes it almost impossible to build a Raging melee character with any appreciable speed from Agi (there simply aren't enough points), which is fine, but then you don't need the vitality malus on top of that reality.

If you want a weapon for melee, maybe something that gives a +crit%.

The ManaWorld Melee class will always be weak in PvP, no matter what you (reasonably) do with damage, because their range is low and the other classes can just kite them. We never put to work the capability for active skills found in the EAthena-Ragnarok client, but PvP is (was?) balanced in that RO game from active skills (mana consuming), that included ranged skills for all classes, and status effect skills (stun, sleep, freeze, etc.), and buffs. If that's not possible here, it's fine (it has to be), but at least melee should be able to shine at tanking and PvE.

If the argument is that other classes have to spend on arrows (1 gp each) and iron ... well melee have to spend on potions. And if you need them to spend more, than perhaps add melee weapon repair (it becomes damaged over time and must be repaired). The cost of that is worth the removal of the argument that melee need to do poor damage because their attacks are "free".
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by Gatekeeper » 18 Jan 2013, 19:48

Make Daggers throwable for Warriors.

So a Warrior hunts a Monster. And this Monster is far away for melee but in a Range of an standart Archer so the Warrior use Daggers or knifes from his Pocket.

Or design new Weapons that can use a Warrior for range Attacks.
in some RPG Warriors kan use ThrowAxes and Spears why not in Manaworld ?
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by baedamichi » 19 Jan 2013, 07:26

mistergrey wrote: Being an archer [...] involves every attack costing something
Why is this argument still brought up when the price of that "something" is so low that it really virtually is a
bell chick wrote:non issue
???
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Re: More love for warriors

Post by mistergrey » 19 Jan 2013, 23:40

Because that low price builds up fast when you're a speed archer, especially if you prefer more expensive arrows than the standard ones. And more importantly, warriors NEVER have to pay to hit. Yes, they can pay for potions to make them hit harder and faster, as can archers... but a warrior can stay somewhere and kill for as long as he wishes without the need to leave and get more arrows/spell components. It's a non issue to you, not everybody.
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