The Mana World Forums

Fine, I was away from the game a while. The game was changed. Some changes are good, others not so good in my humble view. So what? I was living life away from the game. Change happens. I can enter or exit the game any time. All of us can.

This post is not about the changes within game play, though. It is a suggestion to the developers and web admin types. You've got one buggy server I'm guessing. There are lots of users on board simultaneously, may be a consideration for multiple servers. And bull if you say 'well, that presents a management problem'.

A good web admin team, or even one good web head, could configure a master server and establish load balancing of processes. Gee, Linux does this nicely enough. The server you use currently reminds me of one running NT and buffering i/o through Front Page Server. It runs sluggish, does not render graphics efficiently.

Speaking of which, a question comes to mind. When I first began playing, it was said connecting for an hour was akin to an 80kb download. Are we still there? Some of us do not have access to truly unlimited internet service providers.

So please do give some thought to splitting the game over a few to several servers. If this has already been considered, please ignore the suggestion. But also please at least say it has been considered and if it isn't, why not. I'm sure parts of the game could be coded up in C, and probably then on into Java. This might help speed it up a bit too.

And yes, you can run programs off of a web server. You could create program functions, headers and compile it all up, client logs in and gets the updates or mod type packets. Bah, I'm rambling and merely wanted to point out trying splitting it on a couple servers.
It's too late, sorry.

We have two developer servers now for tmwa, an alpha testing server and a beta clone server which will get releases added before they reach server.themanaworld.org. Though both are there to work out bugs before they reach the official playing server, the beta clone is also fully playable and can support a secondary player community. Details are still be worked on for how these servers will operate within the community, but we are active on making this happen soon so there isn't confusion over it.

In addition to the two developer servers and the official, there are a number of alternative servers that have existed for a long while: The Alternate World, The Mana World - BR and The Mana World (German). Others also exist, but I've not been made aware if they offer enough original content to be notable.

There is also a fork called Aethyra which has been in the process of updating to a more recent eAthena. Aethyra has its own client, but may still be playable through a Mana client.

TMW-UFB, a server no longer in service, has a large amount of original content that new servers could adapt on gitorious.

A game in development, Evol Online, is also on gitorious and has an active development team.

Outside of tmwa, there is tmw on manaserv, which has testing.themanaworld.org and Invertika actively running and other games, like Whispers of Avalon, are planning to use manaserv in the near future as graphical development is completed.

The problem with running multiple clone servers is our gaming community is too small to support very many of them. Before I was content lead, alternative servers were flourishing rather well with small communities, but because the official is frequently updated, there is difficulties with alternative servers offering enough unique content to draw attention to them.

DariusBane wrote:Fine, I was away from the game a while. The game was changed. Some changes are good, others not so good in my humble view. So what? I was living life away from the game. Change happens. I can enter or exit the game any time. All of us can.

This post is not about the changes within game play, though. It is a suggestion to the developers and web admin types. You've got one buggy server I'm guessing. There are lots of users on board simultaneously, may be a consideration for multiple servers. And bull if you say 'well, that presents a management problem'.

A good web admin team, or even one good web head, could configure a master server and establish load balancing of processes. Gee, Linux does this nicely enough. The server you use currently reminds me of one running NT and buffering i/o through Front Page Server. It runs sluggish, does not render graphics efficiently.

Speaking of which, a question comes to mind. When I first began playing, it was said connecting for an hour was akin to an 80kb download. Are we still there? Some of us do not have access to truly unlimited internet service providers.

So please do give some thought to splitting the game over a few to several servers. If this has already been considered, please ignore the suggestion. But also please at least say it has been considered and if it isn't, why not. I'm sure parts of the game could be coded up in C, and probably then on into Java. This might help speed it up a bit too.

And yes, you can run programs off of a web server. You could create program functions, headers and compile it all up, client logs in and gets the updates or mod type packets. Bah, I'm rambling and merely wanted to point out trying splitting it on a couple servers.
It's too late, sorry.

This post is just too funny and full of half-knowledge. Well done.

IT is like medicine. You don't perform heart surgery on a patient just because it helped the last one who complained about a similar problem. You have to identify all the symptoms, use them to find a possible cause of the illness, verify your hypothesis by tests and when it turns out to be correct, then you think about what's the best treatment for the patient.

Proposing a solution without being fully aware of the nature of the problem is a waste of time at best and dangerous at worst.

"Though both are there to work out bugs before they reach the official playing server, the beta clone is also fully playable and can support a secondary player community."

It is great to hear of development progress. Do not get me wrong. I
am grateful and happy of that. But what you seem to be saying is
there is only one main playing server.

I'm suggesting setting up several playing servers over a network. The
network in question is the internet. I'm sure a few people would not
mind hosting game servers. You could still do one main server, which
supplied updates, handle databases etc. It could be handled in the
.htacces and virtual servers directory files.

Mana World supposedly uses Mime or Base64 encoded data files. These
could in effect be handled over multiple playing servers. With one
main playing server, there is lag, too much. And when the one server
goes down, we're all left hanging. Having redundant servers with
good load balancing strategies would possibly help, I think.

"there are a number of alternative servers that have existed for a long while: The Alternate World, The Mana World - BR and The Mana World (German). Others also exist, but I've not been made aware if they offer enough original content to be notable."

Alternate World is toast, last I checked. It does not connect. I don't
speak German or French fluently enough to play on those servers. Yes,
I may manage what with pictures being there but rather not have that learning curve.

"There is also a fork called Aethyra which has been in the process of updating to a more recent eAthena. Aethyra has its own client, but may still be playable through a Mana client."

This one I've not heard of and will check out.

"A game in development, Evol Online, is also on gitorious and has an active development team."

If I recall correctly, last visit to this one did not seem promising.

"The problem with running multiple clone servers is our gaming community is too small to support very many of them. Before I was content lead, alternative servers were flourishing rather well with small communities, but because the official is frequently updated, there is difficulties with alternative servers offering enough unique content to draw attention to them."

This poses an interesting question and thought. First, what is the over
all goals of the game development? Is there hope to one day
commercialize? If so, would content providers be treated fairly?

Just some thought. I know it doesn't solve the problem. Sometimes
looking at problems in different views might help, though.


"This post is just too funny and full of half-knowledge. Well done."

At least it was an effort to offer thoughts on solving some game-play
issues. I could instead merely continue to Female dog, wolf, fox or otter and whine over
crappy server outages. And yeah, it is half knowledge. I've only
been using Linux for about three years, set up a server once several
years ago, Apache. Now, I'm moving on Saturday and will eventually
get into college for computer science. I plan on going toward
systems administrator from a programming point.

My half knowledge comes from at least attempting things, exploring.
Someone once said I did a good bit in Lisp code, they called it a hack.
Someone else had written a function which took way too much overhead.
I revised it to be more concise, leading to less memory use. It works
quicker in Lisp than C, too.

Main point, at least I give it a go and do offer suggestions. If that
got a laugh from you, what the hey.

"IT is like medicine. You don't perform heart surgery on a patient just because it helped the last one who complained about a similar problem. You have to identify all the symptoms, use them to find a possible cause of the illness, verify your hypothesis by tests and when it turns out to be correct, then you think about what's the best treatment for the patient.

Proposing a solution without being fully aware of the nature of the problem is a waste of time at best and dangerous at worst."

I understand what you're saying. At least though someone is offering
a suggestion. Not saying it is the best or worst. Currently, I am not
a developer. I do play the game though and see hiccups. Wait, don't
tell me all you developers are Microsoft spies?

You don't want user input?

You should probably not take anything Matt says to heart...

DariusBane, I'm not certain what you're trying to say. Here's what I think you mean:

1) Set up more servers than just the one at server.themanaworld.org
answer: there are other servers. You saw the list. It's open source. You can set one up yourself if you really think more are needed.

2) We should use "load balancing" to fragment the player base.
answer: that's completely counterproductive for a social online game like this.

3) You don't like the other servers you've tried. You don't speak French or German
answer: okay

4) Your post was "an effort to offer thoughts on solving some game-play issues."
answer:Actually, you started by listing several vague problems with the current server. You didn't put any meaningful details in your solutions, and you didn't explain how your solutions would make things better.

5) You're just offering solutions, not pretending they're perfect. It's unfair to shoot someone for that.
answer: You criticized the current setup. You made vague suggestions for others to figure out and act on. And you did this in language that implies the current admins are ignorant.


You seem like someone who is learning some very sophisticated and powerful ways to use computers. My own journey in this direction (I've been a UNIX admin for 15 years) started by discovering the incredibly complex and downright arcane world of operating systems. For several years, I learned everything I could, and found some clever ways to use it. I still remember the first time my more experienced coworker asked a technical question.
You're off to a great start with Linux and Apache. You'll learn more quickly from others if you ask why they do what they do, rather than why they don't fix huge problems.
(By telling others they should fix their problems, and how, you risk offending the real incompetents and alienating those who know more than you do. That latter group is the people you should learn from.)

I still love sysadmin work. The problems change, but it never gets old -- and I didn't start until university, so you have quite the jump on me. May you have even more joy and satisfaction in the crazy world of computers.

So your suggestion is to set up like 10 identical copies of the server and send every player who logs in to a random one? The result would be that.

-The world looks empty because you only see one tenth of the player base.
-You rarely meet your friends, because most of the time they will be on a different server
-The moderation effort of the GMs increases tenfold, because they now have to check ten times the maps for abuse.
-Social events become impossible because there is no way to get everyone on the same server.

Let me address some of your technical and organizational misconceptions in another post.

DariusBane wrote:I've only been using Linux for about three years, set up a server once several
years ago, Apache.

I think this is where most of your misconceptions come from. Apache is a WEBserver. It's purpose is serving webpages. There are, however, different kinds of servers which work completely different. Most of what you've learned from setting up Apache does not apply to non-web servers or even other webservers like httpd or iis.

It could be handled in the .htacces and virtual servers directory files. Mana World supposedly uses Mime or Base64 encoded data files.

tmwAthena is not Apache. It hasn't got a .htaccess file, it hasn't got a virtual servers directory, it doesn't use Mime types and base64 encoding.

Maybe you should try to set up your own server so you better learn how it works internally. Everything you need is provided by us. A guide can be found on the wiki: http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/ ... p_a_server

This poses an interesting question and thought. First, what is the over all goals of the game development? Is there hope to one day commercialize? If so, would content providers be treated fairly?

All content is released under the GNU General Public License which does not explicitely forbid commercialisation, but makes it hard to make a lot of money, because all your customers can use and modify your software and content for their own purposes when they also follow the terms of the GPL.
http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html

The TMW team is non-commercial, but that doesn't mean that others can not take our work and try to make money from it. I wrote an essay about that:
http://doc.manasource.org/making_money_with_manasource

Now, I'm moving on Saturday and will eventually get into college for computer science. I plan on going toward systems administrator from a programming point.

Congratulation for choosing such an interesting field of study. May I give you a hint which will help you to get a lot more out of the first semesters? Don't try to impress anyone with your knowledge. Listen to the lecturers and take your study material serious, because you really don't know as much as you think you do. No, that's not a personal insult. This applies to every freshman at the university.

Crush: I think this is where most of your misconceptions come from. Apache is
a WEBserver. It's purpose is serving webpages. There are, however,
different kinds of servers which work completely different. Most of
what you've learned from setting up Apache does not apply to non-web
servers or even other webservers like httpd or iis.

Fair enough there in dispelling the misconceptions. And yes, I had
them. I have learned so far about Linux boxes running as file servers,
print servers, and even web servers. I know there are differences but
was not seeing ultimately the levels of complexity involved.

tmwAthena is not Apache. It hasn't got a .htaccess file, it hasn't got
a virtual servers directory, it doesn't use Mime types and base64
encoding.

Maybe you should try to set up your own server so you better learn how
it works internally. Everything you need is provided by us. A guide
can be found on the wiki:

http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/ ... p_a_server

Okay, well in doing some reading on the player's end wiki, I read that
the content was xml files encoded using Base64. Even on a Linux server
there exist methods of control and process balancing, as far as I have
seen. And hence my coming up with an idea of clustering servers.
Brother in law is actually taking a RHL Certification classes and
helped me grasp what exactly I was suggesting, the clustering. And yes,
Frost, I do see how it would require more overhead work. And yes, I may
even read about setting up a server.

All content is released under the GNU General Public License which
does not explicitely forbid commercialisation, but makes it hard to
make a lot of money, because all your customers can use and modify
your software and content for their own purposes when they also follow
the terms of the GPL.
http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html

The TMW team is non-commercial, but that doesn't mean that others can
not take our work and try to make money from it. I wrote an essay
about that:
http://doc.manasource.org/making_money_with_manasource

Yep, understand about GPL and Open Source. What I was suggesting would
have been to accept donations, or even charge subscriptions for game
play. These funds would be used to cover the game's overhead alone.
Content developers could offer prizes in game for donations. We could
pay content developers, keep new quests, rewards coming in. Although,
I could understand this not being a good idea.

Crush: Listen to the lecturers and take your study material serious, because
you really don't know as much as you think you do. No, that's not a
personal insult. This applies to every freshman at the university.

Agreed and understood. Thank you for the diplomacy. I often do stumble
over social graces. More so when I think an idea exists everyone ought
to just get right off, without articulating well.

Frost: You seem like someone who is learning some very sophisticated and
powerful ways to use computers. My own journey in this direction
(I've been a UNIX admin for 15 years) started by discovering the
incredibly complex and downright arcane world of operating systems.
For several years, I learned everything I could, and found some clever
ways to use it. I still remember the first time my more experienced
coworker asked a technical question. You're off to a great start with
Linux and Apache. You'll learn more quickly from others if you ask why
they do what they do, rather than why they don't fix huge problems.
(By telling others they should fix their problems, and how, you risk
offending the real incompetents and alienating those who know more
than you do. That latter group is the people you should learn from.)

I admit being right at the cusp here. My train of thought is to use
programming to springboard to system administration. There are a few
ideas for programs rolling around this country boy's head, ones dealing
with farming. But I want to be trained correctly and formally, i.e.
"Here's the degree." Apologies for blurting out vague stuff. Should know
better but this stuff is like sugar for a kid. "C'mon guys, make more
sugar factories! Help us all out y'know!" I do enjoy the game, appreciate
the work that is done. Thought others would snag on to the idea and forgot
to speak clearly, as I was rushing.

Frost: I still love sysadmin work. The problems change, but it never gets old
-- and I didn't start until university, so you have quite the jump on
me. May you have even more joy and satisfaction in the crazy world of
computers.

Bah, reading Unix Haters Handbook nearly did me in. "Do not alias the rm
command. As sure as you do, the computer will reset your alias to something
less obvious, like ls. Then when you ls, you'll rm the whole drive."

Got to love the sense of humor computers attain. Again thank you for
being diplomatic yet giving me some fair reminders.

Ugh: that is hard to read without [ quote ] [ /quote ] tags - please edit it.