Unification

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Pajarico
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Unification

Post by Pajarico » Tue May 16, 2006 8:47 pm

Split from here


[quote="Pajarico"}
Rotonen wrote:Considering that our inspiration is (or should be!) Secret of Mana, isn't Modanung more correct in context to portray the logic through the comic filter?
And I said exactly that, that their boots looked more correct in a comic context. I didn't think they were bad, I just said that the fact his boots were more fitable weren't making mine wrong, that's why I compared both visions.[/quote]

I guess than I'm feeling frustrated, and is not the first time, because of the way the graphic part is working. Let me explain:

I feel I'm working blindly in anything I do until I show what I have and in that moment people will either like it or not. In case they don't like is very frustrating when you have worked for hours on it.

But all of this is because of an underlaying problem that we shouldn't avoid. Saying "like SoM" is not enough. And it's been proved not enough to many other people looking at the current graphics.
This kind of misunderstandings could be saved by a bunch of real guidelines, not just a vague "make it like SoM": like SoM in the graphics? in the gameplay elements? in the story?
And even if you say in the graphics, you are comparing an old game in a very low resolution with ours. In a low resolution there is no other way that to add another line of pixels to represent the boots.
Also SoM, is not purely a comic-looking game, some stuff like trees and certain textures are quite realistic.
You see that even in SoM the haven't followed the criteria "let's make things comic-looking". I can't portray the graphic department chief saying just that and sitting in its wheelchair ;) Sure he/she did a consistent paper showing what was the criteria and how to balance comic and realism; and more important how it should be the same view for everyone. We just lack that.

That's your duty, Rotonen. Want unification in the graphics and a certain course? Then learn from our errors and take your time to write an article about this. People shouldn't be working blindly on anything, wich is what I feel I'm doing most of the time.
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Re: Unification

Post by Modanung » Tue May 16, 2006 10:51 pm

Pajarico wrote:I feel I'm working blindly in anything I do until I show what I have and in that moment people will either like it or not. In case they don't like is very frustrating when you have worked for hours on it.
Well... for example with the boots. Wouldn't it be better to show progress before working on it for hours? I don't make a whole tileset of huts before showing a concept drawing and an early work-in-progress shot.

I understand you think it's all a bit unclear. But if you want to know people's opinion before you've done a lot of work, then show them something when you've just done a single frame. Maybe you did, but I didn't see it.

About the boots again. I just think they don't look like stirdy leather boots. If you didn't intend them to look like that, it's ok with me. But they shouldn't be used in-game as being stirdy boots, rather like the viking boots I showed. Really, if they turned out the way you intended to, that's great.
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Re: Unification

Post by yosuhara » Tue May 16, 2006 11:02 pm

Pajarico wrote: I feel I'm working blindly in anything I do until I show what I have and in that moment people will either like it or not. In case they don't like is very frustrating when you have worked for hours on it.
please, don't give up, we like your work and we need you :)
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Post by Pajarico » Tue May 16, 2006 11:13 pm

You are right, I should have showed it. But that doesn't relieve the problem a bit.

This is the situation that I confront with my drawings:
- If I show current progress: I will receive a bazillion opinions, half contradicting the other half, lazy critics, someone will spam, or say that its not complete, that is not round enough, that is too round, etc. See what I mean? In the end I just don't listen too anyone. This could be aliviated by spliting and closing the content forum, just maybe, maybe it turns worse; we don't know.

And even if I showed them and you tell me "drawing X is too round", and would have said "no, it's are perfect"; who is wrong? whois right? The answer is none, why? because we are using different criterium, each one its own.

Also, any artist shouldn't have to stay continually asking if something is ok or not, he/she should has enough information to work autonomously; don't you think? ;) This is specially true for the pixelation, which aims for a (somewhat) finished product. Not so true for concept art as it's not as much defined.

- If I don't show it: Well, this is in part answered above: and artist should be able to work in its way. And in the end I face a situation of people liking it or not liking it at all.

See? I'm facing a situation of loss-loss, either way my work is not appreciated or not used, and either way I get frustrated.

And lets settle the boots dilemma, all I'm saying is that its a matter of the criteria you apply and with what you compare. We disagree in criteria that and that's the problem: we lack a unified criterium.
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Post by Crush » Tue May 16, 2006 11:33 pm

when i started to work for the mana world i also tried to take every comment seriously. the result was the same breakdown you are now going through.

it's a matter of fact that it is impossible to appeal to everyone so trying is futile. but that doesn't mean that other peoples opinions aren't important. they can help you to find flaws in your work either you didn't notice or where you thought noone would notice.

i am now following the scheme that i read every opinion and think about if the person has a point or not . if i believe that this persons suggestions would improve my work i follow them. if i don't i just ignore them.

oh, and never argue with your critics. arguing about taste is pointless.
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Post by Modanung » Tue May 16, 2006 11:55 pm

I meant showing it to people in the TMW art channel on irc. Rotonen, Elvenprogrammer, me... those kind of people. With the boots, you could've done only the standing frame and asked "Are you ok with this look?".

Oh, and your work WILL be used and it IS appreciated. But you shouldn't expect the first version of your work to be the final version.
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Post by ElvenProgrammer » Wed May 17, 2006 8:11 am

Pajarico wrote:We disagree in criteria that and that's the problem: we lack a unified criterium.
Actually I tryed a couple of times to write a document about general rules for graphic development and I always failed, because of my poor english and the lack of artistic taste.
When you ask me, I usually can give you only my personal opinion, according to my taste, if you want general guidelines I askk all artists to help me in this task. You know what you're doing so you're the best persons to work on it. Grab a wiki page and start writing, discuss with the others on IRC, et voila, we will have a good style reference.

The boots? Oh yeah of course! I like them and don't worry, at this stage I like to use everything people gives to me (apart stolen stuff) and if it is not perfect, well there will be plenty of time later to fix it. And I have to agree with Modanung about showing at least one frame before doing the whole work for 2 main reasons:
1 - You can always get hints and suggestion you like and you never thought on.
2 - You make everyone working on this project happy, since we're very curious and also because it's nice to see things are going on :P

I'm still waiting for suggestions though. :D
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Post by Rotonen » Wed May 17, 2006 12:30 pm

I think this could be calling for an IRC meeting/brainstorming session. The unification issue has been out there for a long time and would need resolving.

The meeting would be mostly to strenghten co-operation and ensure that people do not disagree too strongly.

The attending people should reserve a large number of referrence screenshots beforehand and the aim of the meeting should be to build a wiki page guideline (as in "do it like this, not like this").

Date suggestions? (Or would you like to do it slowly, non-realtime and on the forums / wiki? The IRC meeting would settle it faster, in my humble opinion.)
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Post by Ultim » Sat May 27, 2006 11:27 pm

Pajarico wrote:I feel I'm working blindly in anything I do until I show what I have and in that moment people will either like it or not. In case they don't like is very frustrating when you have worked for hours on it.
I concur; that's a painfully real scenario I have often felt too. But can we really protect against it though? The more you try to give an artist an idea of what you want out of him, the more you restrict him (whether he asks for it or not). The more you restrict him, the worse he will do in his work; blood, sweat, and tears could just be a part of the process. I for one would rather have to go through five different versions of one tile just so the community can make sure we have the perfect version of the tile. And the community doesn't always know what they're looking for until they see it. A system of quality-control may filter out pieces that would rate as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6 out of 10, but it could also filter out 9's and 10's out of ten.
Although it may be a little harder, I say guidelines be damned-- let's pixel freely.
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