The best griefer(s) in game are ... GM(s)?!

[Hello=)]

So far there was recently spawn event in Dimond's cove. Everything has gone just "as usually":

1) The crowd has gathered and event has started.
2) Someone used spell, this time itenplz.
3) Prsm somewhere declared it's "illegal" to use itenplz (I haven't seen this declaration at all).
4) Everyone missed this declaration and continued to use it.
5) Prsm got angry on that and aborted event, as usually.
6) ???
7) PROFIT: Bunch of people trolled and suffered grief. Everyone hates mages "just because they could cast spells".

As for me I can admit at least the following failures in this approach to organizing events:

1) You should make clear rules announced in clear and reasonable way before event starts. As for me, while I haven't used itenplz, I had absolutely no idea it is prohibited. Surprize, surprize! That's looks like FAIL, mister Prsm. You should declare rules before start and make it in the ways every maggot in game will get idea what rules for your event are. Only then it's going to work.
2) Just getting idea that you "dislike something" in the middle of action is not smart at all. You see, players are busy with monsters. Nobody would read chat. Failing to understand this simple fact is FAIL. Getting angry on that is a "double fault". Being GM makes it to count even harder.
3) There are some obvious things crowd will do and which are hard to prevent. Casting spells is one of these things. Granted there is no definitive list of "dos" and "donts" it's doomed to happen here and there. Blaming some particularly unlucky player for that is dumb as well. The only thing you can achieve is to cause a lot of grief to some person who is not more guilty than others.
4) Such approach definitely discriminates mages and increases tension between players. Everyone hates mages at such outcome as the result.
5) I have attempted to contact Prsm in private. This has been really wrong idea. He has been arrogant enough to assume I'm going to cry and ask for event continuation (while I only attempted to point on some of his errors in crowd control) He has ignored my arguments, especially when he understood I'm not going to cry and beg. It looked like arrogance and complete lack of respect.
6) Even more, Prsm has failed to explain how exactly itenplz puts ones in advantage over others. The interesting thing is that this spell does not increases damage rate and does not damages multiple monsters. So there is no increase in pick-ups for caster + bunch of angered monsters which can kill caster (hardly counts as advantage). So it looks like if it has been completely Prsm's own personal tastes and preferences with zero technical reasoning behind this. At least it looks this way from my point of view.

Summary: after all this I'm feeling trolled and griefed with (ab)using GMs powers to achieve that.

As for me I would not visit such events from Prsm anymore to avoid grief. That's a second time I see similar scenario. Some GMs believe it's someone intentionally griefs them or aborting events for fun (IMHO, it's a really silly point of view, esp. for GMs). However the truth is that some GMs are sequencing events in the ways which make such outcome almost unavoidable and then blaming unlucky crowd member(s) for their own errors in crowd control, which is a very good and efficient way to troll/grief crowd members.

Granted that contacting GM in question in private way hasn't been a real success (I got only some arrogance and misunderstanding in return) and that this caused me more grief than any other players were able to cause in years, I have to made public post. I'm not completely sure if it's subject to court house, but since it's percepts as griefing/trolling with usage of GM powers I would post it in court house so whole team would have chance to review actions one more time and maybe rethink approach to organizing events.

P.s. let's remember: power corrupts.

P.p.s.: some extra idea: if some GMs are really-really-really dislike particular mass magic spells during events and even able to list these spells, maybe devs could do some flag which temporarily disables mass area effect spells when event is in progress? I think it's not very hard to add one flag to the code base and toggle it state on some GM commands.

[Crush]

1. A GM does an event.
2. People disturb the event.
3. The GM tells people to stop it.
4. People don't stop.
5. The GM cancels the event.

Sorry, but I fail to see how this is grief or power abuse. Doing events is not a duty of GMs - they do it voluntarily. You are not entitled to have events. When a GM decides to cancel an event - for whatever reason - he or she has the right to do it.

I agree with your critique that the handling of the situation or the event planning could have been better, but that's no reason to make such serious accusations against a GM.

[prsm]

t3st3r

i normally don't respond to someones opinions on me, but i will this time!

First and foremost a spawn party is meant to be fun for the whole community! its not meant for individuals that
can pull monsters to gain an advantage, everyone should be on an equal playing field. Also if i spent the first 10 minutes
of every spawn party dictating the rules, it would suck the fun out of the game!

I did not get angry or mad, i announced the spawn party was over because of the illegal use of magic at the spawn party,
now if that is power corrupting, I don't see it!

I was quick with you when you whispered me because of the condescending tone in which you spoke to me! You
were confrontational and in my honest opinion disrespectful.

Prsm

[prsm]

moved to player talk!

[Frost]

Ah, Dark Water, how we miss ye.

[edit: made it to the end of the original post]

maybe devs could do some flag which temporarily disables mass area effect spells when event is in progress? I think it's not very hard to add one flag to the code base and toggle it state on some GM commands.

This sounds like an interesting idea. I'll assume you're being serious and aren't just inventing work for others.
Since you have enough skill to estimate the work involved, do you think you could look at the source code and maybe submit a patch for this? I believe the code lives at http://gitorious.org/tmw-eathena

[Chicka-Maria]

Ah, Dark Water, how we miss ye.

LOL

[Crush]

t3st3r = Dark Water?

Ooops, sorry for taking this thread seriously.

[Hello=)]

1. A GM does an event.
2. People disturb the event.
3. The GM tells people to stop it.
4. People don't stop.
5. The GM cancels the event.

Okay, let's respond:
1. Right, but event organization is definitely could be improved. Don't you think that it's better to clearly state "does" and "donts" way before event starts and keep them more or less constant across events so ppl have chance to learn it? After all, if player who plays for 3 years is surprised to discover his usual actions are "prohibited" and could "cancel the event" there is something wrong with it, no?
2. Do you really expect people to read the chat in all this mess? This is not going to work. At absolutely least you have to kill all monsters, and do a global announcement for 3 times. Then ppl will get idea. Else it's doomed to fail. Because spawn event is a somewhat mess and rumble so people hardly have time to read chats. It's strange that devs and GMs fail to understand this simple thing. Maybe devs and GMs just should try to actually play the game at least sometimes to retain at least some feeling of game process?
3. Sure, in ways it's doomed to fail. Failure to undestand basics of usability and crowd control is not what looking too smart, yeah?
4. They don't. But that's not because they're bunch of heartless bastards! But because they simply missed some mumbling in chat during rumble . Which is expected, to say the least. Try to play the game and you will see that during rumble it's not that easy to read the chat . For example when rumble unexpectedly started I had chat switched to some tab where I can't see Prsm messages at all. Do you really expect me to see it? Or are you just kidding?
5. Yes. And bunch of players feels trolled/griefed. What s nice way to troll - start an event, doom it to failure and cancel it. Voila, bunch of players has been pissed off. As bonus, unlucky person collects triple amount of grief since everyone hates that person. I once happeneed to be such a person and know how it feels. Fortunately this time it hasn't been me who ruined event but it does a little improvement to perception of events like this anyway.

Sorry, but I fail to see how this is grief or power abuse.

Sure. Because you have to actually play the game as player to see how it percepts. Something that most of TMW devs fail to do, actually . That's also why 4144's client is a way bette in regard of usability: he actually plays the game sometimes

Doing events is not a duty of GMs - they do it voluntarily.

I do understand that very well, but from players side it looks just like a way to troll unlucky person(s) with usage of GMs powers. And this doomed to happen when event is organized this way. Pissing off a bunch of players and hardcore frying of one player or group of players is not what events meant to be, no?

You are not entitled to have events. When a GM decides to cancel an event - for whatever reason - he or she has the right to do it.

Sure, however any actions haves it's consequences. So the consequence is the bunch of trolled and pissed of players. Which isn't a really good achievement.

I agree with your critique that the handling of the situation or the event planning could have been better, but that's no reason to make such serious accusations against a GM.

In fact I have nothing personal against Prsm and even quite positive about his personality. In fact, other GMs have repeated the same mistakes. So the only Prsm's "guilt" is that I had enough grief and frustration to lose patience and switch to "aggro mode" in hope to improve how things are handled. I have made attempt to give suggestions in private ways but met arrogance and misunderstanding (I'm somewhat guilty in this as well as I hardly have been polite). Which have been interpreted as indication GM believes it's completely okay to act these ways.

And btw, have you read idea about flag to temporarily suppress disruptive spells? That what could get rid of this grief, for example.

t3st3r
i normally don't respond to someones opinions on me, but i will this time!

In fact I'm sorry this has gone public, but again: you left me no other options by your own actions. I simply reached my limits in grief and frustration due to such "players trolling" and it does not looks like if I managed to improve situation in more private and polite ways. That's partially my own fault. But you see, after such a trolling and getting overall impression that you're arrogant enough to assume I would beg for continuation and that it has been me who caused event cancel... ok, it has been insulting and griefing to a degree where I hit my limits. This in turn made me not-so-perfect chat buddy, I guess. I'm sorry about that. But btw, in 3 years nobody else managed to make so much grief to me... well, everyone haves their limits.

First and foremost a spawn party is meant to be fun for the whole community!

The result of cancelled parties hardly could be named as such. It's rather grief and frustration for all who came and even more than that for those you declare "guilty". And their only guilt is that they enjoyed event and were doing their day-to-day battle actions so they missed the fact you've changed the "rules of the game" just during the "game" and declared suicidal spell as "beneficial".

its not meant for individuals that can pull monsters to gain an advantage,

And again, you failed to explain what advantage is gained in this process and how this happens. This bunch of monters will try to KILL spellcaster which is hardly counts as advantage. Damage speed and numbers of hit monsters not affected. So spellcaster will not gain any addirional drops but will have some extra risk to die while it would be a little more safe for others. So what exactly you declare as "advantage"? As a mage I'm really surprised to learn the fact someone believes itenplz is a beneficial spell for caster. In fact it has been intended to be suicidal spell . So mages are guiilty in casting suicidal spells. What cool discovery awaits me next time?

everyone should be on an equal playing field.

And again, please explain: what unfair advantage could be gained from meant-to-be-suicidal spell? Have you attempted to use this spell yourself, ever? And what you have gained from that? Except, maybe, saving couple of other players from aggro monsters? I can imagine drops would lay more compact but anyway you can take only your legitimate drops and spellcaster would usually have trouble to use this for his convenience as there are monsters who are going to kill you so you have to run away, abandoning drops (attempt to delay and pick up often means insta-kill by monsters if you itenplz'ed them).

And let's say, to my taste, say, players with 3x3 pickup mode active could have 9x advantage over those dumb players using ancient and dumb clients (0.29, etc) without convenience features (1x1 pickup vs 3x3 pickup), Though measurement is inaccurate and only valid when timeout expires, so it does not looks like a huge issue as anyone haves a plenty time to pick up legitimate drops (and there is nothing you can do about that anyway ecept maybe making 3x3 pickup a default in official client to make others really equal when timeout expired).

All harm I can imagine from that spell is that some players could be somewhat annoyed by the fact "their" monsters started to run away to hit caster. Though it haves nothing to do with advantage over others.

As for me, if you're going to claim that suicidal spell is anyhow beneficial, you should do a serious research and gather some strong proof rather than make some vague statements.

Also if i spent the first 10 minutes of every spawn party dictating the rules,

I guess that at very least you should use global announce to briefly outline rules of party, somewhere close to invitation. Or better define a "permanent" set of spells which are "better not to use on parties". Blaming people for what is a normal part of gaming process isn't very smart move at all.

it would suck the fun out of the game!

To my taste, it's a cancelling of events what really suxx. And then someone going to blame some unlucky person who did it last. I happened to be once such person. I know how it feels. It's a really crappy feeling: you did just usual gaming process but still anyone angered on you, just because Mr GM told you're guilty of event cancellation. Not a greet feeling at all. Then everyone about to blame mages since any of them could cast spells (which is a normal part of mage's gameplay).

To be honest I think that if you have to disable some part of gameplay to conduct an event, it indicates that there is something wrong in event organization and/or game mechanics. That's hardly could be called player's guilt.

I did not get angry or mad, i announced the spawn party was over because of the illegal use of magic at the spawn party,
now if that is power corrupting, I don't see it!

But I do. For example, you have done some vague statements that suicidal spell gives "advantages". And the only proof I seen so far is "because I'm GM and told so". You haven't give anyhow better explaination how it puts others to disadvantage. Then, GMs organizing events exactly like this on regular basis and never considered any changes to game code and/or event organizing approach so it's surely not 1st event which ends this way. Yet nothing changed in months (or even years). Sure, it's more simple to blame players. But expecting players to be happy after being blamed? That's ridiculous! .

I was quick with you when you whispered me because of the condescending tone in which you spoke to me! You
were confrontational and in my honest opinion disrespectful.

Sorry about that. I have explained why I have been imperfect chat buddy a bit higher. In fact I have nothing personal against you, you're here only because it's has been your event where I have reached my limits of grief and frustration. There was definitely more events ended this way, that's why I finally lost my patience. It looks like "GM is always right, it's always dumb players who ruin it, and no, GMs are not going to learn and improve things". I never seen GMs trying to mitigate issues like this in more meaningful and working ways.

IMO you guys should really learn a bit more about crowd control, game process and usabilty rather than always blame players and sticking to this approach. This definitely applies to some other GMs as well.

[Hello=)]

t3st3r = Dark Water?

Nope, I'm not. I'm named Hello=) in game, if you care. I'm also the person who did some bug tracking for you some ages ago, under same "t3st3r" account in bugtracker, if I remember well. Btw if I remember it has been you who dealt with one funny server crasher bug related to spells, don't you? So I would not reccomend you to have fun on me. Else I would simply have some fun on you too rather than just honestly reporting stuff to bug tracker as "hidden private bug" .

[Hello=)]

Ah, Dark Water, how we miss ye.

[edit: made it to the end of the original post]

I'm Hello=) and not a DarkWater. So good luck in treating me like a crap, having fun on me and insulting after I reached limits and gone angry. But there is one joke fellow guy has told me: "everyone could make fun on tester, but not everyone would have a chance to ask for pardon". So if you plan to troll me after I reached my limits and expect to troll me instead of peaceful calm down and constructive discussions, you have to understand that as some skilled tester I can really add up some headache, especially to dev's. See proof at http://mantis.themanaworld.org/view.php?id=733 to get some ideas what the real TMW wizards could do (if you have enough rights to view private bugs ). So I would strongly recommend to keep calm and avoid making me even more unhappy.

This sounds like an interesting idea. I'll assume you're being serious and aren't just inventing work for others.

No, I'm not. I just had a bad mood due to event fail and then I thought how to improve the situation. And after all, adding one flag to code isn't that much of job, I guess. In fact I can imagine half of that code myself. But I'm not a scripter and lack working recent server. So it would be better if someone else would do it. I would really appreciate it.

[Crush]

Your threats are unlikely to make you appear more reputable.

Btw if I remember it has been you who dealt with one funny server crasher bug related to spells, don't you?

Unlikely. When magic was introduced I had already receded from TMW development.

[mistergrey]

This is all a bit dramatic, I think. I'll try and keep this to the point.

Like Crush said, events that GMs hold are their own choice, and subject to their own rules. I'll be honest, Hello =),you were right in that Prsm maybe should have stated at the beginning with a global that certain spells ruin the fun (in his opinion), and that he did not want them used. [EDIT: I'm actually not sure when Prsm stated that he did not want itenplz used, so that could be wrong.] I do understand that it's not very fun for players when a GM abruptly ends an event, and how it can seem like the GM is simply discriminating against say, mages over a personal dislike.
Remember though, that GMs spend a surprisingly large amount of time dealing with trolling, rule breaking, people complaining about being banned for breaking a rule, etc. It does happen that sometimes we just see some things as trolling, even mistakenly, because we're used to it. I remember an event where I asked via global announcement at least 2-3 times for players not to use #frillyar again, or the event would end, and you using it very shortly after in plain view. At the time it did seem like deliberate trolling, and when you explained that it had been a mistaken shortcut or something like that, I believed you and that was that.

As for asking how itenplz could give an advantage over other players: I play as a mage, about 90% of the time, and itenplz is a great way to drag in mobs to kill with frillyar, or to pick off with flar/ingrav. As well, say a GM spawns a bunch of monsters with unobtainable drops, like easter fluffies. Any mage can drag the mob of them away from others, and gain a greater chance of killing more and getting more easter eggs. Personally, I usually don't mind when people use itenplz in my events, but I can see how it can be annoying, and I don't think Prsm was in the wrong for ending the event. GMs can take things the wrong way, just like many players do the same in regards to GM actions.

Quicknotes:
-GM events are subject to the GM's rules, and they can be ended at the GM's discretion.
-Prsm could have been clearer about spells he didn't want used, at the beginning of the event, but...
-GMs deal with trolling/whining/complaining/rule breaking, all the time - it is easy to take certain things as deliberate trolling.
-Itenplz can drag mobs into arrow rain, or away from other players giving mages a higher chance to collect more drops.
-GMs take things badly sometimes, just like many players do on a regular basis, with each other and GMs.

[Hello=)]

Your threats are unlikely to make you appear more reputable.

Right. But it's not threats, just a warning to those who want to piss me off even more without a valid reason. And if people here are intending to have fun on me I don't see why I can't do the very same. Clowns don't have to care about reputation, after all

Unlikely. When magic was introduced I had already receded from TMW development.

Hmm, maybe. I can see it has been Jax and Fate.

[Hello=)]

This is all a bit dramatic, I think.

Sorry, I'm really reached my limits, sir.

Like Crush said, events that GMs hold are their own choice, and subject to their own rules.

I understand this, but there is simply no clear and well defined rules set you could learn and use

I'll be honest, Hello =),you were right in that Prsm maybe should have stated at the beginning with a global that certain spells ruin the fun (in his opinion), and that he did not want them used. [EDIT: I'm actually not sure when Prsm stated that he did not want itenplz used, so that could be wrong.]

Well, at least you see, if player who played for 3 years haves troubles understanding ruleset, what chance that more recent or less smart players will get things right? So we have what we have: lots of ruined events and someone unlucky is marked as "bastard(s) of the day". I know how it feels. Yesterday event remembered me it once more. Even if I'm not a person who did it, all blames went to "those mages" anyway as it's hard to understand who exactly did that. So all mages in general are blamed. Feels like crap.

I do understand that it's not very fun for players when a GM abruptly ends an event, and how it can seem like the GM is simply discriminating against say, mages over a personal dislike.

Absolutely. To my taste, GMs should be neutral. Why dont someone blames archers for using potions? Speed archer with potions clearly outshoots mages most of time. Yet noone prohibits that. Even though ppl on GY really disregard speed archers with potions and intentionally making them attacked by monsters and die due to unfair XP/drops sharing. Though nobody prohibits potions on events, ever. As for me it's quite shifted view of fairness .

Remember though, that GMs spend a surprisingly large amount of time dealing with trolling, rule breaking, people complaining about being banned for breaking a rule, etc. It does happen that sometimes we just see some things as trolling, even mistakenly, because we're used to it.

I understand that. That's why I attempted to contact in private. Yet I wasnt really successful at that. It's somewhat my fault as well since I have been in bad mood for reasons outlined above.

I remember an event where I asked via global announcement at least 2-3 times for players not to use #frillyar again, or the event would end, and you using it very shortly after in plain view.

You see, announcements are not really well-visible. And in crowd you can't generally expect people to act in smart ways. People are just bashing what they can and having fun (which is expected). Btw, client can help here by displaying global announcements on current tab "by default". You see, during rumble there is little time to deal with chats. Tanks maybe sometimes have time to read chats and even chat during battles. Mages and archers could have serious trouble with that.

At the time it did seem like deliberate trolling, and when you explained that it had been a mistaken shortcut or something like that, I believed you and that was that.

Well, trolling isn't a purpose. Though I guess I could be excessively sarcastic somewhere due to being angry.

As for asking how itenplz could give an advantage over other players: I play as a mage, about 90% of the time, and itenplz is a great way to drag in mobs to kill with frillyar,

You can't frillyar in closed building. So this can't be a point

or to pick off with flar/ingrav.

This does not changes kill rate so no gain in term of pickups. And even hardly makes picking up drops more convenient since caster have to run away from bunch of monsters (which also gives others extra chance to pick up mage's loot sometimes). The most annoying thing is probably when tough monster stolen from tank. Yet this does not implies immediate advantages again (getting extra hits from tough monster isn't advantage).

As well, say a GM spawns a bunch of monsters with unobtainable drops, like easter fluffies. Any mage can drag the mob of them away from others, and gain a greater chance of killing more and getting more easter eggs.

Well, nothing prevents players to follow monsters. Just as caster have to move and run away under risk of being shredded into pieces by a bunch of monsters, often ignoring drops or taking many deadly hits. I don't see how this being unfair on their own. Sure, tanks maybe more used to standing still at one spot, pressing 1 button in 2 minutes, spending no consumables and just bashing and then picking up loot. But I wouldn't really call this game balancing fair. Ones have to run like a hell and spent ton of expensive stuff to get at least something in return when others would stand still and gain same drops without spending anything in process. Completely fair gameplay. And everyone who disagree is a bastard. Nice idea!

Personally, I usually don't mind when people use itenplz in my events, but I can see how it can be annoying,

I'm agree it could be annoying in some uses but these are quite minor, especially in small closed building where event took place where ppl are forming tight group anyway. Yet for some reasons Prsm chosen to ignore that and rather insists it gives some "advantages". That's his decision, not mine.

and I don't think Prsm was in the wrong for ending the event. GMs can take things the wrong way, just like many players do the same in regards to GM actions.

Well, in fact it's rather about overall perception of such event's ending rather than about blaming Prsm for some particular occurence. Unfortunately it has become quite a common practice and sure, not only Prsm does this. This does not cancels the fact it's quite a poor idea for GMs to end events this way. And I havent noticed fun as the result of such outcomes. Nor I noticed that everyone treats mages equal after such outcome.

Quicknotes:
-GM events are subject to the GM's rules, and they can be ended at the GM's discretion.

Sure. But making a lot players pissed off isn't a good idea, right? Yet this happens.

-Prsm could have been clearer about spells he didn't want used, at the beginning of the event, but...

I already proposed way to deal with it - see about flags for area-effect spells (there could be even some chance to have backfire, etc to add more fun on these annoying mages )

-GMs deal with trolling/whining/complaining/rule breaking, all the time - it is easy to take certain things as deliberate trolling.

Sure. Especially if another person is quite aggressive and not very polite due to heavy frustration like me did. I can understand that.

-Itenplz can drag mobs into arrow rain, or away from other players giving mages a higher chance to collect more drops.

Disagree with that. No frillyar could work in building and protection timeout is more than enough for player to walk all the building from corner to corner several times before protection timeout expires. Furthermore, say 3x3 pickup will beat 1x1 pickup by 9 to 1 factor when timeout expired. Yet nobody cares about such "unfair advantages". Don't you think it's a bit surrealistic to blame for some itenplz? As for me I would expect a serious investigation with statistics gathering to back up such claims. Else it's rather enforcing some personal preferences on players and discrimination. You see, nobody dares to blame speed archesr with potions on events, huh? And nobody declares that potions are "illegal" and "would stop events". When there is much more reasons to do so than for some stupid itenplz which is meant to be suicidal spell .

-GMs take things badly sometimes, just like many players do on a regular basis, with each other and GMs.

Hmm, yeah. But you see, I had no better ways left in backpack.

[prsm]

t3st3r

The Gm team does not make the rules, we enforce them! We also discuss what actions should be done under certain scenarios. That keeps our actions consistent!

I am still troubled with your posts and anger over it! You are aware certain magic isn't allowed at spawn parties, two other GM's have told you that in the past! So you do know the rules concerning this! The fact that you called me on it, well i can deal with that. You have said i was angry, i was not! you said I was thinking you want me to keep spawning, I never said that! You said i wanted to start a war against mages, where did that come from? Lots of what you said was driven purely from anger! You said we have to play to understand, I have played for 4 years, have 2 players at 99 and never used a client. I have played. You seem to see one truth, your own!

You keep asking me why i didn't explain anything, i did, for a second time on this forum. The fact you cant understand it doesn't make me wrong. I cant make you understand the rules, nor can i make you less mad. Thats not my job here!

You can write anything you want after this post, i wont respond, i wont let myself get trolled any longer, but I want you to think of one thing, of the 20 people that were at my spawn party you are the only one to get belligerent, I had 7 people thank me! The others said nothing.

Have fun, play the game....... it is just a game!


Prsm is outta here