The Mana World Forums

as a gm, we help in the game.
This does not include killing monsters for you or help you level.
Here is a recent conversation....

Substantial Edit to raise a discussion:

This seems just a tad harsh on the player - it was an innocent question, it's not like he was asking you to cheat for him.

There is a point about keeping the GM persona separate ... but is it really necessary? If something comes up you can always warp out at a moment's notice - this might be hard on those you abandon, but it's not like you need to worry about dying.

How aloof do you want to hold yourselves? It might make sense to have the GMs be seen out doing things ordinary players do; I certainly know I appreciated it when I saw Tiana doing one of the Christmas quests, back when I was just a player. (admittedly that was essentially solo)

It kind of seems like a personal choice - is this a consensus among GMs?

I'm not making a judgment either way. It's just something to think about.

--

Original Response:

On the other hand, *players* sometimes help GMs' alts level.

Of course, the players might not know it at the time. (but I'm special)

o11c it would have helped if you had been present at the conversation.
The player in question said i would not help them because i was too busy, i posted it to refute that argument.

Having said that, if you think a gm should help people level, please feel free to set out the requirements, should i help a level 40 over 80? should i help over quests or just levels? when 1 gm is on, who should they help level?

Looking forward to your response.

o11c wrote:Substantial Edit to raise a discussion:

Okay, my two cents:

I see nothing wrong with GMs helping players level, just like any ordinary player does.

Of course, I can see Prsm's concern here:

(Just like any ordinary player) A GM might sometimes feel like helping somebody requesting help, and sometimes they don't. Due to their "special position", some players who are turned down then might feel like "Oh, the "official" persons help some people on request and turn others down, how unfair!"

But I think if one misconception is clarified, this shouldn't happen. GMs basically have two roles if you want: On the one hand, they are GMs, doing a job with certain responsibilities according to certain rules. But on the other hand, they are also players like anyone else.
If a GM is asked for help to lvl, they are asked as an ordinary player, not a GM.

Just compare the following (fictional) situations:

Imagine there's a teacher whose two neigbours are students, and sitting on his porch, both students approach him on the same day and ask him for help.

Situation 1: The teacher is asked a question in relation to school (What was the homework again?). In this case, the teacher is addressed as the teacher, not the neighbour, and thus, in order to be fair, he has to help both students with their question or none of them.

Situation 2: The teacher is asked to play soccer with the first student. As he loves soccer, he agrees. Then, the second student asks the teacher to play basketball with them. As the teacher hates basketball, he declines. In this case, the teacher is just the neighbour, just a fellow human being if you want, and therefore, I could see nothing wrong with his behaviour.
Would anyone claim the teacher treats his basketball-loving student unfairly in situation 2?

To sum up my point of view:

A GM should be allowed to do (or not do) anything the ordinary players can do. Anything that has nothing do with rule-enforcement and/or doesn't involve any GM commands, there should be no difference at all between GMs and the rest of us (who, in the case Prsm experienced here, could just have said "I don't feel like it right now, ask somebody else!").

Come on, making a rule that GMs are not allowed to fight with other players to help them level, now where would that go? If we go down that road, sooner or later GMs won't be able to play at all.
<sarcasm> GM (usually high level) following a player's invitation to a Candor? Wow, the chances of winning it are better. What? He didn't increase someone else's chances even though he was invited? How unfair! </sarcasm>

I have more than 10000000% faith in all of our GMs that they are perfectly able to differentiate well between situations in which they are just a player versus those in which they have to take on their role as a GM.

As a general rule I don't help people level. I occasionally go and heal in the gy or candor, but inn order to be fair to everyone I don't do it on request.


Edit: some times if some one needs help I will say no with my GM character and then log i'm an alt and try to help them on the sly.
1 the GM character can then stay in town to watch what is going on.
2. My alt remains private
3. The person gets assistance.

Granted its possible I have said no because i'm busy irl and just don't have time

In essence i agree with prsm that its not our job to help people level, but if one of us chooses to help its no big deal.

Some people see a character with a green name and ask for things (or say things) they would never say to a regular player.

My green-named admin character has gotten asked to help someone level up their character, to explain every detail of a new quest (and actually walk them through it), to answer specific technical questions about a client (and explain why there is no setting for X), etc. Then there are the many people who request -- no, demand items. Level 70+ characters demand things from a level 1 character which would be shameful from even a level 99.

I've played the game for a while, and I generally try to be helpful (within reason; I play to have fun too.) Some people expect my low-level green-name character to be their personal guide and benefactor. That's really unfair -- both to me as a person and to other people who would be at a disadvantage if I (for example) created Rabbit Ears for them as they want.

tl;dr GM characters get constant unreasonable demands.

Fair enough.

Revised statement: "Don't *ask* a GM to help you level."

I understand (and agree with) GM's arguments (and admins' and main developers' too). I also agree with baedamichi's point of view.
Now I think that seeing GMs (as developers and administrators) only in town center or during controls can wrongly contribute to the idea that they are not regular players. Btw Prsm and Narus are the only GM I had the (rare) occasion to play with after they became GMs.
I think ruling that point would be an error.

Nard wrote:I understand (and agree with) GM's arguments (and admins' and main developers' too). I also agree with baedamichi's point of view.
Now I think that seeing GMs (as developers and administrators) only in town center or during controls can wrongly contribute to the idea that they are not regular players. Btw Prsm and Narus are the only GM I had the (rare) occasion to play with after they became GMs.
I think ruling that point would be an error.

actually you and i have played together quite often just not with my Big Crunch character

Yes Mr B.C., I did, and with pleasure . I just meant with you as GM. I was just speaking about the image, as seen from the exterior: I often saw on this forum words wrongly saying that GMs always sit in town center. I wanted to remind that. I think every one of you, can help or not help with his GM character, according to her/his own feelings. Helping a char to raise it's level is outside GMs attributes. not outside the player's ones.
Image is important because it participates to the general idea players have from the game. This is why (I don't let you know anything new) a GM, a Developer, an Administrator, cannot use the same words, behave or play the same roles a regular player can.
Now, if GMs behaviour as players had to be ruled (I don't agree with that), I would suggest, as I did for developers when some of them made a confusion between the two roles, that a special account is created (GM_Big Crunch for example) and reserved for GM use. For devs I would even suggest that the account is impersonal to avoid both dev harassment from players and cap running.

People , we are off topic and its all my fault!

I posted the screenie because chef poutine asked me to help them level, i said no, gm's do not help people level. Chef poutine than said that i said a bunch of stuff that i did not say, so I posted a screenie to prove what i said. no more and avoid the drama that ensued.
Which was an epic fail on my part.

Its any players choice to help or not, and I would like to think I help lots, but I have never helped people level. At level 99 I would steal more xp than it would be worth. Nor is it in my nature to kill monsters so other get the drops. I wont even open that can of worms on who you would help first, level 20 over 40 or 60 or 80 if we did help. Its better to give advice in the game, so i do.

That my 2 cents

No drama, and no worms here I think. Even if we are off the topic you launched, there were some real problems exposed here. Speaking about them is interesting even though we all think there is no definite solution but different ones for each case

I don't think that the majority of people understand the concept of being a GM. Their job isn't to invite people to a party with them, and level them. Transport them places, etc. They're there for help, moderation, and what-not. Not help such as what I just said; being transporting, and leveling players.