The Mana World Forums

It is quite apparent that the single most imbalanced portion of the game is the proportional damage reduction due to armor.

I propose that the defense bonus of all equipment be cut in half, immediately, with weak exceptions for items that already have low defense bonus. Also, the Candle Helmet is on a too-powerful tier for the ease of getting it.

Then defense can be based more significantly on VIT like it's supposed to be.

A likely second step is to increase to-hit for all melee attacks, so warriors can free up the points currently tied up in DEX.

I agree with you, but

o11c wrote:A likely second step is to increase to-hit for all melee attacks, so warriors can free up the points currently tied up in DEX.

this should be released together, because otherwise there will be quite an outrage when you drastically nerv warriors without giving them anything in exchange.

this would make the rage skill 100% useless.

if this were to happen, i would foresee the death of the warrior class. as is, you have about a5-1 ratio of archer to warrior, higher when you include the mages. the exp rate of warrior to the other classes is already super poor. the redeeming factor of the warrior class is survive ability. Consider that the warrior is multi ability dependent as well as dependent on carrying healing items, a reduction in armor effectiveness would end the class.

personally, iIfeel as though balancing should be approached via increases in weight of items. release aanew top tier armor at the current warlord armor bonus, make its weight 1/3 higher, reduce the effectiveness of the other armors by 1/3. Also increase the weight of healing potions, iron and con potions, etc.


BC

Rebalancing has been stalled for a long time. I share Big Crunch's concerns, but I'm interested to see what effects this would really have on game play.

Maybe it's time to "throw [stuff] at the wall and see what sticks." Make it easy and quick to make changes and test them. Try radical things which are 80% likely Horrible but 20% chance of Awesome. Keep the ideas flowing.

What if we set up a "rebalancing server" on port 6902 of the testing server?
There's no shortage of people who care about the results of the work, so I'm sure we'll find enough people to help test.

Maybe it'd be easier to rebalance stats of the most popular slayed monsters in game?

o11c wrote:It is quite apparent that the single most imbalanced portion of the game is the proportional damage reduction due to armor.

My 2 cents, if you do this wipe warriors out of the game, and yes i am a warrior!

All new items are magic related or help mages, all new content seems to be going that way also. The only new content we have seen in years was the rage skill, and it hurts us defensively in a big way.

And before someone brings it up all the new weapons, rock knife and ice galduis are weaker than the bone knife.

prsm wrote:And before someone brings it up all the new weapons, rock knife and ice galduis are weaker than the bone knife.

Weaker yes but they also have the +1 luck and the + vitality the bone knife does not possess.

I do agree there should be a rebalance though with the weight of armour, items, monster stats, etc. but this has been brought up many times, its finding the time to do the rebalance is the problem and people who will stick to it and make all classes equal in some way. I will say I do find pvp interesting...its like a cycle, warriors can kill archers, archers can kill mages and mages can kill warriors. But anyway we will see if this goes anywhere different.

Regards,

In agreement with Big Crunch and prsm. Already the ratio of warriors is poor which would lead one to the conclusion that future changes should encourage the class. Not only encourage the warrior class but to encourage teamwork in a party with mixed classes. I find it most fun in game-play when there are 1 or 2 of each class working together just like old school rpg. Currently the trend is to level fast with a speed archer, because you can. I've always preferred enjoyable gameplay with others over quick leveling.

o11c wrote:It is quite apparent that ...

As most players I am not enough aware of the consequences that have the status parameters on the damage and resistance. Probably you (plural) already had a lot of discussions about the balance problems but we are not enough aware of it to give a constructive opinion.
What is easy to see is that warriors damage is lower to those of archers and mages this mainly because they have to put a lot of points into luck and vitality to defend and be able to kill before dying. The difference is a bit lower in levels superior to 90 because speed and better, raging skill begin to have their full effect at these levels though the max damage still shows a significant difference.

Our opinion may be biased because most (?) players do not raise their chars as a member of one class and use status change to optimize growth rate. An example of balance problem is when you begin and try to train in Tulimshar's mines as a warrior with little armor and a knife, compared with archer design. Levelling a warrior in 65-85 ( 70-90) level range is painful: not a lot of quests, a lot of grinding... The temptation is great to use a bot. Fortunately none is available!

Mobs also have an influence on the levelling rate: green slimes allow a much higher growth rate to archers in than to warriors or mages. Recent white and blue slimes are also far easier to kill with archers and mages than for warriors. foobo points an important thing too: Shall the mobs require another rebalancing? I noticed, while playing similar mpmorpgs that a char has to fight mobs of comparable level. It is not the case here.

Please note that it is impossible to raise a mage from scratch because getting magic requires physical abilities (attack and defense) prior to any magic attack. Thus the stats Nard has in game (a single status change only, bad status understanding)

It is quite apparent that the single most imbalanced portion of the game is the proportional damage reduction due to armor

I don't see that point, please explain :/

I propose that the defense bonus of all equipment be cut in half, immediately, with weak exceptions for items that already have low defense bonus. Also, the Candle Helmet is on a too-powerful tier for the ease of getting it.

Candle Helmet was used a lot when it was released. I actually think it has little interest to any class of characters compared to other helmets including infantry one. Note that the ratio skilled players/ New players has changed a lot thus the availability of infantry helmet changed too, thus making it almost unsellable.

Then defense can be based more significantly on VIT like it's supposed to be.
A likely second step is to increase to-hit for all melee attacks, so warriors can free up the points currently tied up in DEX.

• I am interested to understand how it could be done, and what are the consequences to the other "classes".
• I do agree with Crush, if there is a change, it must be a global one. Players are precious to get a significant advice.
• I find Frost's suggestion of a second testing server a nice one, as an empiric approach of the problem.
• I would find very useful to have a status calculator on the web site if not on the wiki, which could allow us to make fight simulations. (maybe several to be able to compare various solutions). [such as RO status calculator]
• I will try to improve Ali's (nice) job on the wiki to make it easier to understand and more complete if possible. I will require your help o11c, thanks by advance.
• As you may know I am a scientific, and sometimes childish. I better understand pictures. I think curves or graphs could be useful to make comparisons. (I'm going to think about which ones could be helpful to characterize warrior efficiency)

Is it doable to make equipment that has requirements, such as level, minimum str or other stat, etc?

Hard limits get awkward, not just in terms of lore, but also as things have to be unequipped after the fact, so to speak.

There are other options available, though. Shields, with their inability to be used alongside a bow and severe M.Atk penalty, serve as a rather nice area to add bonus effects for warriors to.
I believe in my previous experiments I had shields have a chance to reduce damage additively (amount and chance varied based on the shield) in addition to their existing equipment defence.

Still, as I understand it, the point of this initiative is to set up a testing server with some broad strokes in place. We could do something similar to last time with a second char and map server connected to the main login server in order to make things more accessible to people.


---Freeyorp

Freeyorp101 wrote:There are other options available, though. Shields, with their inability to be used alongside a bow and severe M.Atk penalty, serve as a rather nice area to add bonus effects for warriors to.
I believe in my previous experiments I had shields have a chance to reduce damage additively (amount and chance varied based on the shield) in addition to their existing equipment defence.

Another option to make shields' destination to warriors is their weight since most mages and archers have low strength. Now the case of healers should be considered too. They need a good defense to be able to heal efficiently. Usually, in rpgs, this class is clerics who have some strength and use bashing weapons to be able to grind and carry, vitality, white (healing and protection) magic, less combat (war) magic attack.

Still, as I understand it, the point of this initiative is to set up a testing server with some broad strokes in place. We could do something similar to last time with a second char and map server connected to the main login server in order to make things more accessible to people.

I understood it slightly different: a second independent testing server looking mainly as actual one. But your idea is quite interesting too as, if I remember well there was no need to recreate and setup new chars.

Nard