The Mana World Forums

I would like to make a suggestion to give long-time active players some voting rights in the decisions regarding the direction of the game and community. The logic here is that active long-time productive players also contribute in a significant way, enough to give them a legitimate stake in the unfolding of our Mana story. Admins, Developers, and GMs are, of course, automatically granted this consideration, but perhaps if a player has been here long enough, active enough, they have also earned some consideration, too? Development and Enforcement should not be the only paths to influence in a truly community-driven MMO game.

The formula I propose for this is a point system, where the points add up for various achievements. If you earn 10 points or over, you are automatically considered a stakeholder; a person with a legitimate stake in the Mana World, that could vote, if appropriate. It goes as follows:

+10 You are, or have been, a GM, Developer, or Admin in TMW.

+1 For every year with the project. You can use either your forum account age, or your player account age.

+1 For every sword next to your name as a regular user on the forum, to denote activity on our officlal forums. I believe the maximum is +4 or +5.

+1 For every 2 levels past 89 on your highest level character only. This should amount to a maximum of +5 at level 99.

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I've been here a while, actively participated in forum discussions, and I've worked on my character in game also, so I decided to test it out on me, for fun:

+0 I've never been a GM, Dev, or Admin.

+5 I've been here for 2007, 2008, 2009, 2012, and 2013. I am excluding 2010 and 2011, because I was not active then, although that would rely on the honour system, and in practice, it would be hard to know this automatically for a machine generated list. Still, we could make the applications as requests on the forums, instead of machine automated, if that sounds more appealing. (Sounds like more work to me ... )

+1 For forum participation. I'm a one-sworded Peon with about 96 (97 after this one) posts.

+2 For character levels in game. My main, Selenil, is level 93.

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Well, I'm at 8 points. Still 2 more points to go in order to reach 10 points. I could post some more (but not spam, of course), or level my character higher. Of course, I could get into development too, although I have some fears about that, which is a personal obstacle I would have to overcome. I feel as if I've already put a lot of effort and love into TMW, but still not enough, even by my own suggested metrics. And that is perhaps a good thing, because even if it becomes possible one day for long-time contributing players to have a say (without going the dev / GM route), it should be neither fast nor easy, I guess. Sort of like an earned citizenship in ancient Rome, perhaps.

I would set the following prerequisites:

• - At least 3 years of activity
  - At least 100 posts on a forum account
  - At least one character of level 90 or more
  - Is not a GM/Dev/Admin or anything else other than just a player
  - Passes a forum poll that works like a GM poll
  - The GHP/TMWC agrees

Otherwise it would be too easy for idiots with a lvl 99 to become a player representative.

This sounds like a lot of beurocracy for little gain imo..

If there is a poll they will have to pass why just not make a few more GMs?

Sure I do like the idea of the longtime players having a say, but I think that when/if those players speak their mind that gm's pay attention to them.

And I have a feeling that at least some of the old timers that are respected by the community talks to the GM's in one way or another and that their opinion is valued. The slight problem with this is that of transparancy towards "ordinary players".

For example I've been seeing Nard go out in defence of Bastex here on the forums, and I think that his opinion is valued by the GM's and Admins, not because he has a title - but rather because of his knowledge about it and that he knows some players good thru CRC.

I guess the same goes for other people who has been playing for a long time and has a good reputation.

So, in my mind this will not in practice change anything except maybe that we as ordinary people will know who those players are and that it adds more polls on the forums. I am not sure about more polls since the community has troubles to reach the required votes for GM's.

This is at least my take on it.

.:WildX:. wrote:I would set the following prerequisites:

• - At least 3 years of activity
  - At least 100 posts on a forum account
  - At least one character of level 90 or more
  - Is not a GM/Dev/Admin or anything else other than just a player
  - Passes a forum poll that works like a GM poll
  - The GHP/TMWC agrees

Otherwise it would be too easy for idiots with a lvl 99 to become a player representative.

That's actually feasible. I do think requiring several quantities is a good idea.
Even though this is not applicable to me, I would lower it to level 80 and 2 years. (My main only got to level 86 before I started spending my time on development stuff, and I while I've been around the game for 3 years, I've only been around the forums for just over 2 - and I think time active in the forum is more important than time in-game, and it is also easier to track)

There are a couple of problems that I can see, though:

• What happens if a PR wants to start dabbling in development? Not all Devs are in the TMWC. (the upgrade path from PR to GM is more clear)
• Having access to the hidden forums will place a huge difference between PRs and ordinary players - hidden details about secret quests, secret information about the reputation of the players, discussions about rules ... Think, is there anyone you trust with that information? Stop thinking of yourself as a PR, and imagine others in that position. And remember that most GM polls do not pass! (and I do not think a PR poll should be less stringent)
• Both the players and the TMWC will need to be able to trust the representatives. PRs would have the right to speak in the private forums, but not to reveal information from the private forums to anyone else.

We do talk to 'community leaders' quite often. I respect Nard and his opinion quite alot, along with Sango, Sugar et al. The idea of Player Representative still seems like alot of work for little gain. Considering that the requirements are alot more stringent than those for GM or any other entrant into the TMWC it seems as though no one would actually pass.

Prsm came up with a good idea earlier in irc. Would sending select issues that do not affect content development, but would affect ingame issues, such as rule structure, GM election, and basically anything that would not directly affect Content or genuinely private issues, work to give players the voice they seem to desire? Granted i've paraphrased alot of what Prsm said, but I think i got the spirit of it.

To me that seems like the best way to get a genuine consensus. The requirements to vote would be the same as the requirements to vote for GM, eliminating the noob factor, some of the trolling, and still give weight to the words of the players that participate.

BC

Let me give an example of my idea (and once again this is just an example)

Would you like the gm vote to be lowered from 60 to 50, and there would be a poll.

Like Big Crunch said this would be under the same general rules as GM voting, but democracy would rule. you would need to have 20 posts and a forum account, we haven't discussed who would have the right to post on rule changes yet, but we are working on it.

Power right back to the people that play!

Prsm

I don't see any need for this. It's needless complication.

I understand the players want to have a voice.. But the thing is, they already do! Admins, Devs, GMs etc all read the forums here, pay attention to what the players are saying and act upon this information. If you want to discuss an idea simply post it to the forum. If you're a well known voice in the community, people will respond appropriately. If it's something better not dragged out in public, PM a GM or something and discuss it there.

If you think the GM voting requirements should be changed post a topic on it and open a discussion. If it seems like a good idea to open an official poll on it.. someone will probably do so.

Good ideas speak for themselves, regardless of management structure. Our ears are open. Don't be afraid to speak up.

prsm wrote:Let me give an example of my idea (and once again this is just an example)

Would you like the gm vote to be lowered from 60 to 50, and there would be a poll.

Like Big Crunch said this would be under the same general rules as GM voting, but democracy would rule. you would need to have 20 posts and a forum account, we haven't discussed who would have the right to post on rule changes yet, but we are working on it.

Power right back to the people that play!

Prsm

I think this sounds like a really good idea in general. But this should only happen when eighter the gm's views on a matter internaly is not decisive.. like say a 2 vs 3 opionion in favour or against some action.

Or if there has been complaints.

The big plus of a system like that is that a lot of controversies in the vein of "The GM's are against me" could be cut short if the community shows the gm's their support and on the other hand it safeguards against bad GM'ing.. Not that I think that this has ever been a problem in game, but i've seen older topics where players felt abused by GMs.

The minus is obvious, it could just become another arena for trolling and petty politics.

o11c wrote:

.:WildX:. wrote:I would set the following prerequisites:

• - At least 3 years of activity
  - At least 100 posts on a forum account
  - At least one character of level 90 or more
  - Is not a GM/Dev/Admin or anything else other than just a player
  - Passes a forum poll that works like a GM poll
  - The GHP/TMWC agrees

Otherwise it would be too easy for idiots with a lvl 99 to become a player representative.

That's actually feasible. I do think requiring several quantities is a good idea.
Even though this is not applicable to me, I would lower it to level 80 and 2 years. (My main only got to level 86 before I started spending my time on development stuff, and I while I've been around the game for 3 years, I've only been around the forums for just over 2 - and I think time active in the forum is more important than time in-game, and it is also easier to track)

There are a couple of problems that I can see, though:

• What happens if a PR wants to start dabbling in development? Not all Devs are in the TMWC. (the upgrade path from PR to GM is more clear)
• Having access to the hidden forums will place a huge difference between PRs and ordinary players - hidden details about secret quests, secret information about the reputation of the players, discussions about rules ... Think, is there anyone you trust with that information? Stop thinking of yourself as a PR, and imagine others in that position. And remember that most GM polls do not pass! (and I do not think a PR poll should be less stringent)
• Both the players and the TMWC will need to be able to trust the representatives. PRs would have the right to speak in the private forums, but not to reveal information from the private forums to anyone else.

• PRs should not be able to become GM or dev unless they resign.
• There is a few people I would trust with all the information, and I would definitely vote yes for them in a poll.
• If the players don't trust someone then that person will probably not pass the poll, so that's not a problem. If the TMWC doesn't trust anyone in the community with their "secrets" then I suggest a change in leadership. Oh wait.

Also, 3 years of activity and a lvl 90 should be a requirement. We need people who have been around for a long time (3 years isn't *that* much, btw) and have played the game enough to at least have a lvl 90, but if you think the level requirement should be lowered that's fine, the 3 years rule should stay though.

MadCamel wrote:I don't see any need for this. It's needless complication.

I understand the players want to have a voice.. But the thing is, they already do! Admins, Devs, GMs etc all read the forums here, pay attention to what the players are saying and act upon this information. If you want to discuss an idea simply post it to the forum. If you're a well known voice in the community, people will respond appropriately. If it's something better not dragged out in public, PM a GM or something and discuss it there.

If you think the GM voting requirements should be changed post a topic on it and open a discussion. If it seems like a good idea to open an official poll on it.. someone will probably do so.

Good ideas speak for themselves, regardless of management structure. Our ears are open. Don't be afraid to speak up.

Discussion from players are often ignored and go unanswered, even when the admins/devs say they listen, they often don't (at least not enough). This isn't only a problem in TMW, it happens with most MMOs.

EDIT. sorry for the double post, should have edited the first one. *slaps himself*

.:WildX:. wrote:I would set the following prerequisites:

• - At least 3 years of activity
  - At least 100 posts on a forum account
  - At least one character of level 90 or more
  - Is not a GM/Dev/Admin or anything else other than just a player
  - Passes a forum poll that works like a GM poll
  - The GHP/TMWC agrees

Otherwise it would be too easy for idiots with a lvl 99 to become a player representative.

I agree with most of these points though I do not like the polls in the way they are conducted at the moment. They are called elections though they are definitely not. I can admit that there was no better solution when this procedure was installed. I am also an adept of "counter power": I mean that the best decisions result from debates where contradiction is allowed. If members are chosen among people who mostly agree with the existing comittee... :/
Also, to avoid endless debates, there must be a clear definition of who is a developer and who is not, roleplay (unknow alts) should not be admitted in development or when working on any aspect the project.
In my opinion, to have any kind of high level responsibility, people should also have to register to some site where their real life identity could be known from other members with enough reliability. This is to warrant that no one could be twice in the comittee, and that they know they can have to deal that they can have to deal with legal issues: For example Server Administrators, Game Administrators, Forum administrators, Wiki administrators, have access to RL personal data and have to manage them.

Nard wrote:I am also an adept of "counter power": I mean that the best decisions result from debates where contradiction is allowed. If members are chosen among people who mostly agree with the existing committee... :/

LOL, you wouldn't say that if you'd seen some of the discussions we've had.

MadCamel wrote:I don't see any need for this. It's needless complication.

I understand the players want to have a voice.. But the thing is, they already do! Admins, Devs, GMs etc all read the forums here, pay attention to what the players are saying and act upon this information.

Players have a voice indeed: the forum, and the "around developers" meetings that Jenalya organized. So suggesting that players could have some representation (at least consultative) in comittee is to make possible debates richer and avoid possible mistakes or lacks of communication.

Good ideas speak for themselves, regardless of management structure. Our ears are open. Don't be afraid to speak up.

A not so far past proves that this was not the case, at least not always. Also there has been too many post where contributors have been laughed at or despised.

Nard wrote:

.:WildX:. wrote:I would set the following prerequisites:

• - At least 3 years of activity
  - At least 100 posts on a forum account
  - At least one character of level 90 or more
  - Is not a GM/Dev/Admin or anything else other than just a player
  - Passes a forum poll that works like a GM poll
  - The GHP/TMWC agrees

Otherwise it would be too easy for idiots with a lvl 99 to become a player representative.

I agree with most of these points though I do not like the polls in the way they are conducted at the moment. They are called elections though they are definitely not. I can admit that there was no better solution when this procedure was installed. I am also an adept of "counter power": I mean that the best decisions result from debates where contradiction is allowed. If members are chosen among people who mostly agree with the existing comittee... :/
Also, to avoid endless debates, there must be a clear definition of who is a developer and who is not, roleplay (unknow alts) should not be admitted in development or when working on any aspect the project.
In my opinion, to have any kind of high level responsibility, people should also have to register to some site where their real life identity could be known from other members with enough reliability. This is to warrant that no one could be twice in the comittee, and that they know they can have to deal that they can have to deal with legal issues: For example Server Administrators, Game Administrators, Forum administrators, Wiki administrators, have access to RL personal data and have to manage them.

I dont fit any of the 'Admin' criteria, but I dont mind sharing my identity.

My name is Patrick O'Neal, i'm 34, married for 15 years and I have a 5 year old son. My email address is a 'for tmw only' address, but it is bigcrunch.tmw@gmail.com. I live in Monroe, Louisiana, have a 6 year old Beagle named Nickel. I can be found on twitter @ RedBeardCustoms and on facebook @ RedBeardInnovations. I like long walks on the beach, pina coladas, and getting caught in the rain. I like making love at midnight in the dunes of the cape.

BC

o11c wrote:

Nard wrote:I am also an adept of "counter power": I mean that the best decisions result from debates where contradiction is allowed. If members are chosen among people who mostly agree with the existing committee... :/

LOL, you wouldn't say that if you'd seen some of the discussions we've had.

I didn't mean saying that, that the former GHP had a single opinion. I know that, just as I do, you have opinions that can seem weird to others, but have to be considered. I mean, for example, that all developers have a developer point of view (I don't say unique) though most actual members are players too. Their vision of the game is thus different from someone's who is a noob in computer knowledge.