Reviving discussion on death penalty.

[Jaxad0127]

Previous thread here: http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 13&t=16800

Instead of having to go through the maze every time you die, what about a choice to go back to the last Soul Menhir you touched (like now), or go through to maze to end up closer to where you died? The idea would be to put submenhirs (need better name) around the world as revival option on death, but only after you preform that task. Otherwise, you can choose to go back to the 'full' menhir, like we currently have. We could also have an option where you pay ~2% of your EXP to go to the submenhir immediately.

The idea would be to have full menhirs be very rare (only in major towns, like Tulimshar, Nivalis, and Trade City), while submenhirs are somewhat common (smaller towns/settlements, ruins, etc, like Hurnscald (after Trade City is implemented), near the graveyard (moved to logging camp once that's implemented), Candor, etc).

We could also expand the afterlife area to include more content, like NPCs with information that you can't find elsewhere, quests to complete in the living world (And report back next time you die), etc. No fighting or anything, as dying in the afterlife is nonsense. Restricting the locations of the full menhirs (And so the cheap teleport they provide) to only a few locations in world will help alleviate some of the issue with death and quick travel. We could even do a region setup where you have the option of quickly returning to the full menhir for that region, instead of the last one you touched, which could be on another continent. I'd leave the submenhirs up to player choice,no matter where they travel in the world, because of the extra work you have to do to return to them in the afterlife.

Thoughts, questions, issues?

[AnonDuck]

If such a system is implemented it'd be neat to have a NPC that tells people the value of their PC_DIE_COUNTER, maybe even gives out silly very low-value "rewards" if you hit the right numbers. Sort of a death-lottery.

[Jaxad0127]

If such a system is implemented it'd be neat to have a NPC that tells people the value of their PC_DIE_COUNTER, maybe even gives out silly very low-value "rewards" if you hit the right numbers. Sort of a death-lottery.

Yes, the old (years ago) discussion we had on this included that.

I realized after posting that if we have region-based free revival, then we don't need menhir/submenhir, but just menhirs. The maze or EXP cost would send you to the last menhir you touched, while the free revival would be to the major city for the region you died in.

[Nard]

The idea is nice for players but:

• It forbids to have shops with different pricings when there are long distances to cross
• it depreciates teleporting items such as Hitchhikers towels, or potential teleporting spells

[Jaxad0127]

The idea is nice for players but:

• It forbids to have shops with different pricings when there are long distances to cross
• it depreciates teleporting items such as Hitchhikers towels, or potential teleporting spells

How does it do either of these?

[Nard]

With 2% no one will use them, just imagine when you are level 98! you gain a few % a day. if the "fee" is interesting ( the order of magnitude of some undead for example) then, what I suggested applies:
To be able to have shops with different sell/buy prices without breaking balance, player must travel with effort in the case of lower prices. It is impossible if the world is covered by save points.
Towels dyeing costs gems, if it is cheaper to use substones, they become useless...

The idea of an afterlife seems better to me. The content concepts of such an area seems still rather obscure to me though.

[meway]

According to o11c the menhir script roughly knows the difference between its save and @save. So in theory we could have a script that creates an @save for your position in every map. This could be known as a "check point" verses a submenhir. I assume you would stay in death world if you die in death world. The only way out would be npc? I propose if you die in death world and go through the maze you get sent to a random menhir. If you make it through the maze and don't die you get to go to your check point. If you chose to go to your last menhir from an npc that would be fine too.

[o11c]

According to o11c the menhir script roughly knows the difference between its save and @save.

That's not at all what I said.

[meway]

According to o11c the menhir script roughly knows the difference between its save and @save.

That's not at all what I said.

must have misunderstud

[Jaxad0127]

After thinking things over a bit, I'm dropping the menhir/submenhir stuff and just going with the region/mehir concept. Free revival in the capital of the region you died in. Maze or EXP pay to revive at the last menhir you touched (no matter where in the world it was).

With 2% no one will use them, just imagine when you are level 98! you gain a few % a day. if the "fee" is interesting ( the order of magnitude of some undead for example) then, what I suggested applies

The idea is that you can opt to go through the maze to be revived at the last menhir you touched, OR pay the ~2% EXP for the same thing. Or you can go the free route and end up in a major city instead, which might be a long ways away from where you died. If you touched the nearest menhir before going to the graveyard (or where ever), then navigating the maze OR pay the exp, you'd be back there faster than if you took the free route and ended up back in Trade City (or wherever). As travel becomes more convenient, we'll have to keep this in mind. No one will take the maze or EXP if you can just pay 5K gold for a ferry ride back to the graveyard. I'd like to restrict such easy travel to few and far between spots (that you have to visit first), with menhirs being more common (but not too common; we will need to balance that).

To be able to have shops with different sell/buy prices without breaking balance, player must travel with effort in the case of lower prices. It is impossible if the world is covered by save points.

Towels dyeing costs gems, if it is cheaper to use substones, they become useless...

To use those save points/menhirs you'll have to spend EXP or time navigating the maze. If it still become san issue, we can make it cost more as you die more.

The idea of an afterlife seems better to me. The content concepts of such an area seems still rather obscure to me though.

NPCs with information you can't find anywhere else (historic stuff from people that were there, information about world mechanics that the living can't figure out, tips on hidden content, etc). and quest starters (stuff to do after revival, completing the quest next time you die). We'll likely find other things we can place there.

[Nard]

The idea is that you can opt to go through the maze to be revived at the last menhir you touched, OR pay the ~2% EXP for the same thing. Or you can go the free route and end up in a major city instead, which might be a long ways away from where you died. If you touched the nearest menhir before going to the graveyard (or where ever), then navigating the maze OR pay the exp, you'd be back there faster than if you took the free route and ended up back in Trade City

I did understand the "or", what I mean is that at high level 2% experience is a very high tax. At the moment the long way must be a huge length one to be compared with the time you pay with this tax: it should require a day or more. Then lower level players who have less "time" would be incitated not to explore this perpendicular (parallels have the same direction) world, though it is for them that it would be the most useful as you describe it. If the time is not so long It accentuates the problem, if the price is low... ( already discussed). It seems quite difficult to balance.
The positive aspects I can see: Warriors and healers will regain more importance. Warriors will also regain interest. I am not sure about archer-healers.

Another potential problem: quests have been designed with the actual "penalty" in mind I mean especially Blue Sage (White and blue slimes, there is a random possiblity of Death), Cindy Quest, or Candor and more: Illia Sisters where failing is yet an extra penalty.

[veryape]

Imo, I would think that it would be cool if your body dies and your spirit keeps on living, you will have to go to a city to get revived by a mage/priest, there you could get the option to be revived at and teleported to where you were for a small fee or just get revived in town and have to walk back to fetch your gear that is at the dead body, also those dead bodys should not be able to be looted by other players. Also those priest could be able to revive you where you are and get the loot back for you for a small sum.

Those sums should be level dependent so that low level chars that walked into the yeti cave without knowing what is there is not punished hard and not being able to get their stuff back..

Just an idea.

[v0id]

The whole idea is interesting. Ddeath should come with a penalty, at least to make death meaning something. It doesn't have to be harsh though, and what's proposed here is good.
For quest design purposes, I do think there should be a way to disable this new "death logic" from script code, to e.g allow players to respawn to the special save point you defined.

[Jaxad0127]

Imo, I would think that it would be cool if your body dies and your spirit keeps on living, you will have to go to a city to get revived by a mage/priest, there you could get the option to be revived at and teleported to where you were for a small fee or just get revived in town and have to walk back to fetch your gear that is at the dead body, also those dead bodys should not be able to be looted by other players. Also those priest could be able to revive you where you are and get the loot back for you for a small sum.

Those sums should be level dependent so that low level chars that walked into the yeti cave without knowing what is there is not punished hard and not being able to get their stuff back..

Just an idea.

That's rather difficult to implement and would be rather annoying for the players.

For quest design purposes, I do think there should be a way to disable this new "death logic" from script code, to e.g allow players to respawn to the special save point you defined.

That would be doable.

[Len]

From my experience exp debt (the idea of taking a percentage of the exp a player gains through fighting/quests to be used toward paying off a debt incurred from death) works the best. As it allows a player to keep their current progression in a level, it also motivates them to get back out and fight in order to pay off the debt (the player is penalized without being side tracked or forced to jump through hoops, when they just want to play and not run a maze). It also eliminates the question of what to do if someone has no exp in their current lvl.