The official server flamewar topic

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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by Altus Institute » 01 Feb 2016, 09:02

blackrazor wrote: 1) You didn't carefully read any explanation that I wrote.
2) You didn't understand any explanation that I wrote.
3) You didn't want to believe any explanation that I wrote.
4) You are pretending but really having some fun trolling.
veryape wrote: I tried my best. You have had your chance to bring facts to the table for nearly three years. You have failed to do so as far as I am aware. You have only made examples like painting walls and stuff and it seems like we are talking past eachother.
Yes sure you've tried your best to try to change every one point of view.
i remind the discussion i got with sritnitay, you do the same with this discussion.
We talk about something and you talk about something else using the same word and terms, trying to match under the same definition things who are totally different.
And you try to put everything upside down, letting everyone confuse about this topic.
Just continue your game.
After all its your playground.
blackrazor im just surprise that you dont get it from the time you speak with them.
veryape wrote: Anyhow, to remind you, you had the exact same argument three years ago, read this and continue where you left off to show why you still think that Platyna is the exclusive owner to the data rather than the Project owning the data.
She dont try to tell that she is the exclusive owner of the data.
And veryape be carefull about what you called "data".
Read the previous post to have a clear mind about all of "data" definition.
In her case, its crystal clear.
And its clear too, that what you call "data" is an opensource project that everyone can have a copy for his own interest.
And Platyna is not arguing about having or to be called the opensource project owner.
She claim the "data" called database players, that means log in, password, email, that you took on her server.
Its all.
Its simple.
Its clear.
And there is nothing else.

And its clear too, that if you want to start a fork of the original opensource project, it will take time to see people coming on your server.
And its for this reason that the people stole these "data", or their fork will be forget in some lost dungeon.
See land of fire case, even if this server have more content for players, players dont go there because there is no others players online.
And this will be the case of this project/fork if you didnt took player database on the Platinum server.
You have the right to have a copy of the original work. Nobody say the contrary.
You dont have to take players login, its what Platyna talked about all this time.
You cant take land of fire player database, you cant take Brazil or german server player database.
What thing helping you to think that you can do it with the Platinum server?
Obviously you cant.
Its what Platyna talking about and nothing else.
You can leave a project leads to do your own.
See the case with all Ubuntu fork.
But in any case you can take the player database for your own use.

From now, I call you all, (tmwc, gm, administrators) to stop confusing this topic.
All things are clear.
If from your point of view, things are not clear and you think that you still have the right to take the player database from a server to use it on another.
I will consider that you have a bad spirit about all of this, and not only me.
And if you continue to talk to confuse reader about this topic almost closed that only means that you knew that you have done something that you shouldnt.
Ty for your consideration.
veryape wrote: Don't miss out on what Bjorn thought and what Elven thought, She is not the founder of tmw, not the first host. I think it is clear that Platyna changed history along the way - trying to get people to think that she is the founder of the project and the sole owner of it. She was a host - she didn't even own the data according to her own rules as she stated them on her machines. Read that thread and come back with arguments that further your position or shows my position as wrong.
[/quote]

She changed nothing.
She always spoke about one and only thing, the player database who contain players log in, password and email (and more).
She dont and she didnt claimed the ownership of an opensource project.
She claim to be the leader, over a team that she trusted, who took the players database for their own use.

Plus, in all this discussion and topics you showed some interesting things.
Someone can remove to the owner his rights if he try to sink his own opensource project. And at this moment it seems that you clearly dont match with the original spirit of this project that is to build a game freely reachable from who want to play with it.
Perhaps it was not in Elvenprommers spirit to do it.
But Platyna as leader of the ghp tended to do it.
That means that you sink her project insight to bring up yours instead.
and for this goal you dropped the opensource client to officially take a private and personal client that allow to connect to a fork under specifical conditions, working or being a friend of the tmwc and his insight of the project.
Platyna server was removed from manaplus server list for personal reason.
She insulted someone?
Who in her situation will not insulting someone recognized as harmful.
So insults was not the purpose for your team to remove her from the server list.
You know that if you let her access, little by little the player go back on her server, because the tmwc change the project purpose.
For this reason you dropped the opensource client project who allow everyone to have his own fork and his own free client to be free of the tmwc influence.
At this time even the "old" client dont allow people to connect on the platinum server.
And the official client dont have in his list the platinum server.
Can we make a manaplus fork?
No.
Am i wrong?


The only signification of this is : or you work with and for me or you cant have a fork for your own where players can go.
For an opensource project this is not acceptable.
Or you are free to do whatever you want with it, or not.
Or its a private project, in this case nobody have a word to say about it.
Or its an opensource project and the tmwc behaviour is unacceptable.
19:24:32 wushin So, can you do something?
19:24:52 Altus I can do nothing.
19:25:07 wushin So you are highly capable of doing nothing?
19:25:20 Altus yerp =D
19:25:31 wushin Crap, im only highly capable of doing something...=/
19:25:34 cassy Its ok wu-wu, we all needs to start somewhere...
19:25:43 deepthought wtf
19:25:46 wushin .....
19:25:52 cassy *pokes* deepthought
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by veryape » 01 Feb 2016, 09:59

Altus Institute wrote:
blackrazor wrote: 1) You didn't carefully read any explanation that I wrote.
2) You didn't understand any explanation that I wrote.
3) You didn't want to believe any explanation that I wrote.
4) You are pretending but really having some fun trolling.
veryape wrote: I tried my best. You have had your chance to bring facts to the table for nearly three years. You have failed to do so as far as I am aware. You have only made examples like painting walls and stuff and it seems like we are talking past eachother.
Yes sure you've tried your best to try to change every one point of view.
i remind the discussion i got with sritnitay, you do the same with this discussion.
We talk about something and you talk about something else using the same word and terms, trying to match under the same definition things who are totally different.
And you try to put everything upside down, letting everyone confuse about this topic.
Just continue your game.
After all its your playground.
blackrazor im just surprise that you dont get it from the time you speak with them.
veryape wrote: Anyhow, to remind you, you had the exact same argument three years ago, read this and continue where you left off to show why you still think that Platyna is the exclusive owner to the data rather than the Project owning the data.
She dont try to tell that she is the exclusive owner of the data.
And veryape be carefull about what you called "data".
Read the previous post to have a clear mind about all of "data" definition.
In her case, its crystal clear.
And its clear too, that what you call "data" is an opensource project that everyone can have a copy for his own interest.
And Platyna is not arguing about having or to be called the opensource project owner.
She claim the "data" called database players, that means log in, password, email, that you took on her server.
Its all.
Its simple.
Its clear.
And there is nothing else.

And its clear too, that if you want to start a fork of the original opensource project, it will take time to see people coming on your server.
And its for this reason that the people stole these "data", or their fork will be forget in some lost dungeon.
See land of fire case, even if this server have more content for players, players dont go there because there is no others players online.
And this will be the case of this project/fork if you didnt took player database on the Platinum server.
You have the right to have a copy of the original work. Nobody say the contrary.
You dont have to take players login, its what Platyna talked about all this time.
You cant take land of fire player database, you cant take Brazil or german server player database.
What thing helping you to think that you can do it with the Platinum server?
Obviously you cant.
Its what Platyna talking about and nothing else.
You can leave a project leads to do your own.
See the case with all Ubuntu fork.
But in any case you can take the player database for your own use.

From now, I call you all, (tmwc, gm, administrators) to stop confusing this topic.
All things are clear.
If from your point of view, things are not clear and you think that you still have the right to take the player database from a server to use it on another.
I will consider that you have a bad spirit about all of this, and not only me.
And if you continue to talk to confuse reader about this topic almost closed that only means that you knew that you have done something that you shouldnt.
Ty for your consideration.
veryape wrote: Don't miss out on what Bjorn thought and what Elven thought, She is not the founder of tmw, not the first host. I think it is clear that Platyna changed history along the way - trying to get people to think that she is the founder of the project and the sole owner of it. She was a host - she didn't even own the data according to her own rules as she stated them on her machines. Read that thread and come back with arguments that further your position or shows my position as wrong.
She changed nothing.
She always spoke about one and only thing, the player database who contain players log in, password and email (and more).
She dont and she didnt claimed the ownership of an opensource project.
She claim to be the leader, over a team that she trusted, who took the players database for their own use.

Plus, in all this discussion and topics you showed some interesting things.
Someone can remove to the owner his rights if he try to sink his own opensource project. And at this moment it seems that you clearly dont match with the original spirit of this project that is to build a game freely reachable from who want to play with it.
Perhaps it was not in Elvenprommers spirit to do it.
But Platyna as leader of the ghp tended to do it.
That means that you sink her project insight to bring up yours instead.
and for this goal you dropped the opensource client to officially take a private and personal client that allow to connect to a fork under specifical conditions, working or being a friend of the tmwc and his insight of the project.
Platyna server was removed from manaplus server list for personal reason.
She insulted someone?
Who in her situation will not insulting someone recognized as harmful.
So insults was not the purpose for your team to remove her from the server list.
You know that if you let her access, little by little the player go back on her server, because the tmwc change the project purpose.
For this reason you dropped the opensource client project who allow everyone to have his own fork and his own free client to be free of the tmwc influence.
At this time even the "old" client dont allow people to connect on the platinum server.
And the official client dont have in his list the platinum server.
Can we make a manaplus fork?
No.
Am i wrong?


The only signification of this is : or you work with and for me or you cant have a fork for your own where players can go.
For an opensource project this is not acceptable.
Or you are free to do whatever you want with it, or not.
Or its a private project, in this case nobody have a word to say about it.
Or its an opensource project and the tmwc behaviour is unacceptable.
I exclusively call the player generated data the data, the other thing is clearly under GPL license and no point in arguing about.

Still, read the link to the old thread, that one handles this, and blackrazor made the same claim then as now. He failed to put any facts forward that shows that his claims is right. Now read that thread with an open mind, come back with arguments or don't write anything. You can't just claim that I or someone else is trying to obfuscate the discussion - and feel that you win the argument that way - now that is obfuscation of the topic if something. Yes, I might not argue perfectly, english is not my mothers tounge - but I do my best to stay fair when arguing.

You state that Platyna owns the data that they players generated by playing the game, that is a statement - please put forward some argument or fact/reference to why. Just stating something and saying that people with different views are wrong is not good arguing in my opinion.

Best Regards
Characters: veryape / Captain Dunce / Elvara / veryapeGM
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by Altus Institute » 01 Feb 2016, 13:52

veryape wrote: I exclusively call the player generated data the data, the other thing is clearly under GPL license and no point in arguing about.
We all talked about the same things?
Read wushin post, and you will understand that is not his point of view.
Read others post from "your side" opinion, and you will understand that you/they dont talked about the same things.
Its for that reason that wushin bring it up with the right definition of owner....of an opensource project, and Platyna from the ghp, cleary dont talk about the same thing.
veryape wrote: Still, read the link to the old thread, that one handles this, and blackrazor made the same claim then as now. He failed to put any facts forward that shows that his claims is right. Now read that thread with an open mind, come back with arguments or don't write anything. You can't just claim that I or someone else is trying to obfuscate the discussion - and feel that you win the argument that way - now that is obfuscation of the topic if something. Yes, I might not argue perfectly, english is not my mothers tounge - but I do my best to stay fair when arguing.
Of course blackrazor failed.
Of course Platyna failed.
3 years about all of this, data is this, data is that. And finally you confused your opponent perfectly, until that he drop the discussion or talk about things you call something else.
When you have a discussion with someone you try to put everything upside down.
I tested it with my discussion with sritnitay about tmwc via wushin, insulting community and calling troll and steampile people who talk about the project but dont want to dev.
Read the previous post to have a clear mind about it.

veryape wrote: You state that Platyna owns the data that they players generated by playing the game, that is a statement -
I stated nothing.
Its how it works. Its a fact.
And if its not a fact, that only means that everyone can ask the player database for his own fork.
Am i wrong?
If i start my own fork, will you give me the players database, letting them to be connected to my server?
I asked this, and moderator put my ask into what you called the garbage thread and nobody answer me.

veryape wrote: please put forward some argument or fact/reference to why.
Read all the previous posts for this, they are fulled of this.
no need for the moment to do something like this.
If i need to do it, this forum doesnt suit for it, and because you put all of my post in a place you called garbage.
That only means that you dont respect others point of view about this situation.

veryape wrote: Just stating something and saying that people with different views are wrong is not good arguing in my opinion.
Best Regards
Fortunatly, that isnt the matter of all of this.
I dont said that you are wrong, read all my previous post about all of this.
I said that you didnt talked about the same topics.
Its differents.
But now all the things are clear.
We each know what it is that you/we call "data".
So you know now that Platyna doesnt want the ownership of this opensource project.
veryape wrote: You can't just claim that I or someone else is trying to obfuscate the discussion - and feel that you win the argument that way - now that is obfuscation of the topic if something. Yes, I might not argue perfectly, english is not my mothers tounge - but I do my best to stay fair when arguing.
There is no problem with your english, lot of players dont have english as native language.
And its for this reason i try to make the things clear, like that everyone can know what really happening.
Im ok with you, previously things was not clear, and Platyna insulting people, crying...
We all of us read her post.
But we should know for what reason she acted like this.
So now all the community interested by this, know why Platyna acted weird.
And please, put yourself in her skin, and you will well understand that you will act like she acted if something like this happened to you.
Of course she didnt took the good way to claim her right.
Instead she tried to talk with you, if i well understood from 3 long years, to make you understand that you shouldnt take the player database from another server.
And of course i thanks you for your patience with her.
You should know too, that she fall sick following all of this.
Can you understand her position?

So everything is clear.
And all facts are here.

So lets me make it more clear for your understanding veryape.

Veryape you are a member of tmwc, so I ask you to give me a copy of the player database (log in, password, email) like that if a player of your project/fork want to connect to my server with his current character, he can, and he will not lose time to level up a new character to enjoy the content of my server.

Veryape Im waiting your answer.
With all my consideration

EDIT
Ah Platyna if found your server, and its seems you have been banned from this forum. :lol: .
Unfortunatly seems they banned you from showing you face in the game and calling player.
I tell you to not play punk.
Why have you done this?
Why you dont let skilled people doing what they can do?
Can you be quiet for a moment?
I tell you, i will not be affiliate with people looking for revenge.
Mark my work well in your mind.
If you want to do something weird, you will do it alone.
If you want to running your server like a pro, without insulting anyone, without having arrogant attitude, i tell you that you will find people to help you.
If it just a put a mask on your face on yours real face to play the cool dude, soon or later, you will destroy yourself.
All of this situation, steal, illness, and more should have learn you something.
Can you understand it?
Or do you still want, power, the most viewing place, the most beautifull items in your useless storage...???

So, even if you cant answer here, you can answer on your own forum.
Read me well before answer me Platyna.
Last edited by Altus Institute on 01 Feb 2016, 15:10, edited 1 time in total.
19:24:32 wushin So, can you do something?
19:24:52 Altus I can do nothing.
19:25:07 wushin So you are highly capable of doing nothing?
19:25:20 Altus yerp =D
19:25:31 wushin Crap, im only highly capable of doing something...=/
19:25:34 cassy Its ok wu-wu, we all needs to start somewhere...
19:25:43 deepthought wtf
19:25:46 wushin .....
19:25:52 cassy *pokes* deepthought
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 01 Feb 2016, 15:02

Be happy you don't really own the data, like you think you do. If you did, then the government could TAX you on it, just the same as they would tax you for making chairs. Ownership comes with both liability for damages and taxation consequences, and government would like nothing better than for you to own the game data. But you don't. That's why it is illegal to sell accounts on ebay, because you don't own them. That's also why you cannot sue a server for damaging your items or deleting them or devaluing them with changes in game mechanics; because you have no property right claim for these virtual things.

And I laugh that Elven and Bjorn convinced you guys that is was okay to steal data from Platyna that was not yours (not theirs, either). They never liked eAthena-TMW, understand this simple thing. They came to you lot, because they wanted it to fail and they figured that you lot, unlike Platyna, would eventually kill it dead. They wanted ManaServ to be the server software of TMW, and they were pissed as hell when Platyna made a successful go of it with eAthena instead. And (barf) she made a community of players (ugh) thanks to her adding forums and other good community management tools. They did not want players, only devs and some testers. They wanted to develop ManaServ, not be saddled down with eAthena garbage (from their point of view) and a whining noxious community of player children (again their point of view) that would complain about every important development change that might impact their precious little characters, stifling development in the process. They wanted a testbed for development, not a community with needs of its own. Oh, they were pissed that Platyna with her eAthena succeeded where they failed with their ManaServ, which is why they left the project and dumped eAthena project rights and responsibilities on Platyna alone, they "passed the baton" as Wushin already explained. They probably hoped it would die with them leaving, but it didn't and Platyna grew it even more instead. So when the opportunity finally came up to try and kill it again with you lot, and shank Platyna one more time, I'll bet they just couldn't resist. And so here we are.

Anyways, Platyna was not just a host, although she was that as well. She was SOLE AUTHORITY of her PLATINUM server, queen, dictator, "cutter of hands", which gave her ownership of the data output on it by the eAthena-TMW server software. Clients are nothing from a legal data standpoint. Players interact only through the clients. It is the server software that actually makes the data, and that was on Platyna Platinum, belonging to her.

The server software itself is copyleft GNU GPL and belongs to the community, not Platyna.
The DNS themanaworld.org belongs to Elven, not Platyna. He can point it where he wants, and although it can be a dirty trick, I never once complained that it was stealing, because it belongs to Elven, he can do it.
Elven and Bjorn are the founders of the project. It's very nice. It also means nothing legally about owning anything. Not the software, which by GNU GPL is for the community, and not the DATA, also by law belonging to whatever SOLE AUTHORITY happens to be running it on whatever server has a copy of freely available eAthena-TMW server software running on it.

But like a Captain Dunce, you will somehow try to explain to me again how I am saying that Platyna is the owner of the project and that host = data owner, when again and again I make clear that I say no such nonsense and that nonsense is entirely tangential to the question of data ownership. But you will say it again anyways, because it is good for confusing what we are actually discussing.

You are the one, not me, that brought up chairs, which you seemed to understand very well. How convenient for you to only understand what you want to understand from life, and nothing more or less. But when I bring up the painted wall, that confuses you? Really? Here is why the wall is a better example than your chair. Because the wall belonged NOT to you, just like someone's server belongs NOT to you. When you paint the server with data or the wall with a beautiful painted mural, the same thing happens from the standpoint of property law. You become one party making a change to another party's property, without any reasonable expectation of compensation. Why no expectation? Because, exactly as you said, you didn't sign anything or agree to anything, and in the absence of that, the law defaults to the other party's property remaining theirs. You cannot make any part of their property yours without their agreement, no matter how much you paint, because the wall (or server) still belongs to them. And the same with a server's data. From a server-authority-person's (I am so careful not to say host, okay?) point of view, the game's server software is running on their computer, making data as output, and unlike with the client, this observation of the server is actually factually correct, the data is indeed being output by the server software onto the server computer, and NOT the client.

Wall = server software and computer
Paintbrush = client software and computer
Paint = data
Painted Mural = game character and items as data on the server, i.e. paint on the wall applied by use of paintbrush
The owner of the wall owns the mural, not the owner of the paintbrush. Unless they make a contract stating otherwise, which they did NOT do.

To be clear, taking Platyna's data off of Platinum without her permission was theft. The only reason it was done, was to ensure that all the staff (volunteer employees) left along with Frost and o11c. If they didn't have the data, then even with the DNS now pointing to their server, TMWC would lose many players and devs that cared more about playing in the unique proprietary world that was already in existence on Platinum, rather than starting fresh and empty in a new place without Platyna. Nobody is as Dunce as you hope, we all know it. It's obvious, like the sky is blue, the sun is yellow, or will you argue that too?


I know I am wasting my time and you are probably trolling me, and I honestly don't give a damn. You want to pretend not to understand because it is convenient for you? Okay, I cannot control that. I can tell the truth, but I cannot control if your mind is receptive to it. Such is life, and I accept life.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by Altus Institute » 01 Feb 2016, 15:26

blackrazor wrote: I know I am wasting my time and you are probably trolling me, and I honestly don't give a damn. You want to pretend not to understand because it is convenient for you? Okay, I cannot control that. I can tell the truth, but I cannot control if your mind is receptive to it. Such is life, and I accept life.
No, its not a waste, please dont take it like this.
Thanks to you the situation is more clear than ever.
But for few moments you lost your sight, because you tried to put yourself at their place to help them to understand.
its what i saw in your post.
It was a bad idea.
But the things are clear now.
And please, try to explain to Platyna to stay calm.
Insult time is finished.
Lets see what will happens next with veryape answer.
19:24:32 wushin So, can you do something?
19:24:52 Altus I can do nothing.
19:25:07 wushin So you are highly capable of doing nothing?
19:25:20 Altus yerp =D
19:25:31 wushin Crap, im only highly capable of doing something...=/
19:25:34 cassy Its ok wu-wu, we all needs to start somewhere...
19:25:43 deepthought wtf
19:25:46 wushin .....
19:25:52 cassy *pokes* deepthought
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 01 Feb 2016, 16:56

Altus Institute wrote:
blackrazor wrote: I know I am wasting my time and you are probably trolling me, and I honestly don't give a damn. You want to pretend not to understand because it is convenient for you? Okay, I cannot control that. I can tell the truth, but I cannot control if your mind is receptive to it. Such is life, and I accept life.
No, its not a waste, please dont take it like this.
Thanks to you the situation is more clear than ever.
But for few moments you lost your sight, because you tried to put yourself at their place to help them to understand.
its what i saw in your post.
It was a bad idea.
But the things are clear now.
And please, try to explain to Platyna to stay calm.
Insult time is finished.
Lets see what will happens next with veryape answer.

I see the same phenomenon with people that torrent movies illegally. It pleases them to enjoy these movies without proper rights, and they will believe anything that supports their claim, because they want to continue to enjoy their torrent movies without seeing themselves as data pirates and thieves. They are naturally prejudiced to see the situation in a slanted light, because of their own pleasures and satisfaction only being met by seeing it one way and not the other way. As for myself, I am a neutral unbiased observer. I am not a friend of Platyna (I respect her but I do not know her), and I am not a friend of the TMWC. The game character with which I identify exists in both places, and I have no strong feelings for it in either place. I gain nothing from supporting Platyna, nor from supporting TMWC. So my opinion is truly a free one, unencumbered by desire, pleasure, bias, or need. If I were part of the TMWC for long enough (heaven forbid .. hehe), I would probably either come to see it as they do, or become a pariah and leave. Such is human nature.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by Altus Institute » 01 Feb 2016, 17:32

blackrazor wrote: As for myself, I am a neutral unbiased observer. I am not a friend of Platyna (I respect her but I do not know her), and I am not a friend of the TMWC. The game character with which I identify exists in both places, and I have no strong feelings for it in either place. I gain nothing from supporting Platyna, nor from supporting TMWC. So my opinion is truly a free one, unencumbered by desire, pleasure, bias, or need.
The same goes for me.
its a game and i take it like this.
there is a forum to talk, if we are not allowed to talk, so remove the forum, its simple.
But i dont like to be callled steampile and good for nothing.
19:24:32 wushin So, can you do something?
19:24:52 Altus I can do nothing.
19:25:07 wushin So you are highly capable of doing nothing?
19:25:20 Altus yerp =D
19:25:31 wushin Crap, im only highly capable of doing something...=/
19:25:34 cassy Its ok wu-wu, we all needs to start somewhere...
19:25:43 deepthought wtf
19:25:46 wushin .....
19:25:52 cassy *pokes* deepthought
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blackrazor
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 02 Feb 2016, 00:27

A Funny Story

Most of you come to this project by way of various flavors of Linux. Not me. Many of you don't really know what eAthena is, you just know the name. And that is where my story begins. Okay, so once upon a time, there was this enormous huge epic Korean MMO named Ragnarok Online. It was a 2 Gb monster in an age of 20 Gb Hard Drives, a digital wonder of its time, gorgeous art, very detailed character and skill paths, so much to explore. People just had to play it. Even those that weren't going to pay for its subscription at the time.

To that end, free shards began to crop up like mushrooms. These were illegal servers running stolen copies of Ragnarok that you could find online, in order to allow players to log in for free to this Ragnarok Online that everyone was talking about. How was this done? Well, the art and scripting assets were online, for both client and server, if you knew where to look. But how to run it? Well, that's where eAthena came in. eAthena was specifically made as a serversoft emulator that could run the Ragnarok server assets file. eAthena was not illegal in itself, since it didn't come bundled with the Ragnarok assets. It was original code that could run it. How did the eAthena folks manage to reverse engineer an entire, very finicky, very snarky, very poorly written serversoft? Well, it turns out, they had help. The original copy of the Ragnarok serversoft, the real stuff, called Aegis was leaked. It was coded by Hakkyu Kim a.k.a. Neolith of Ragnarok's Gravity Corporation ... and hey it was his first ever server development, in an age where everyone was pretty much flying by the seat of their pants, so don't give him too much grief. So the eAthena coders had access to Aegis code as a guide and template, greatly facilitating their reverse engineering project. By the way, Aegis ran on Windows Server software and used Microsoft SQL Server as its database. Not Linux and text files databases.

And that's where I came in. I was one of those who really wanted to play Ragnarok Online. And I did, thanks to eAthena. But there was this one nagging problem as I was enjoying myself so very much. It was stealing. Not eAthena, that was perfectly technically 100% legal. But the art and scripting asset files, client and server, allowing me to enjoy Ragnarok, were stolen, copied, bootlegged, pirated, what have you. As I had a conscience, this reality eventually sunk in and soured my fun, and I stopped. But I remained active on the eAthena forums, and always recalled that eAthena's claim to total legitimacy was this line, more or less: "Hey we're not telling you what to run on our serversoft. If you choose to run Ragnarok, that is your own choice. Someone could, in theory, make their own art and game, and using eAthena, they could bring it to life as an actual online game to play."

Well imagine my happiness and surprise, when I found TMW listed on the eAthena forums as just such a wonderful campy fun little project. I was overjoyed. This was back in 2007. I played it in 2007, 2008, and a bit in 2009. I came back later on to find my character erased from inactivity, but no worries, I build myself up again, and happily played some more. Then came the "server-move" a.k.a. the theft of Platyna's data. At first I had no clue, because no one was saying anything, and the data and DNS had been moved seamlessly. But as I eventually realized what had happened, that Platyna's data had been stolen, I began to wonder if it was the "Ragnarok Curse".

Aegis got leaked and stolen. eAthena, developed from Aegis, was made to run stolen Ragnarok asset files (sound familiar, sort of?). But eAthena found redemption from purgatory when TMW developers actually used it to make their own original game, validating those claims. Ah, but then Platyna's data got stolen, and used here. Sigh. History always repeats, it seems. And again, just as with Ragnarok, I had a conscience, was soured and unable to enjoy playing on stolen goods, in this case the stolen virtual-world data-files, not the art and scripting assets. But more or less amounting to pretty much the same sinking feeling of great sadness. And believe me, this whole sordid tale was filled, beginning to end, with apologists and pretenders, claiming it was always fair, legal, and good, to do whatever it was that they wanted to do at the time.

So ahoy there, ye data pirates ! Aye, I'm talking to you, ya slimy scallywags !

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SriNitayanda
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by SriNitayanda » 02 Feb 2016, 07:32

Its a bit long for the limerick competition.
In control of tmw media (aka @broadcast) and tmw financial sector (aka GMstorage) | also a member of tmw Bilderberg Group (aka Phoenix Council guild)
2013-11/26/#General.log:[15:00] veryape: meh, guild is down, we cant conspire at all
blackrazor
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 02 Feb 2016, 07:41

SriNitayanda wrote:Its a bit long for the limerick competition.
What? It's only 47 pages. It's still a wee thing, it is. The "Iliad" of limericks. Some of it even rhymes. A bit. Maybe.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 02 Feb 2016, 15:13

You know what else TMWC stole from Platyna? These very forums data ! How else do you think you have topics started by Platyna, STICKY and still here, like:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1177 "Readme First: Legal Notes of Published Art."

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2922 "Game and forum rules."

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=9299 "READ ME: Purpose of this forum and rules." Administrative » GM Community Suggestions

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=5118 "Purpose of this forum." Administrative » Court House (Abuse Forum)

Not only is this proof you stole her forum data, but it is also proof that she was Sole Authority of Platinum and not only a host. Did Madcamel or OVH make such sticky? What about Bjorn and Elven? Frost and o11c? No, I see Platyna sticky thread, proclaiming her SOLE AUTHORITY right here, because you couldn't even be bothered to make new forums after the move, and you stole her data from the forums too ! Hahahahahahaha So Funny :D
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by Qwerty Dragon » 03 Feb 2016, 02:06

Qwerty Dragon wrote:Is the Bunny under gpl? I have those files and would like to use them.
SriNitayanda wrote:Afaik, the licences are GPL or CC-BY-SA 3 by default when posting on the forums. but perhaps you need to confirm it with the artist now.
https://github.com/themanaworld/tmwa-cl ... f529499884
Ug, I hate to see this removed.

When I first read that the creator of the bunny art asked for it to be removed, I PM'ed them (on .net because can't on .org now asking for permission), but they do not seem to have noticed it :(

Does anyone know pateame?
Qwerty Dragon wrote:
pateame wrote: ¿Can you please delete my forum's account?
You owned the forum's SQL database with my password hash on it, I think it's stealing and I don't want to be part of this anymore.

I never registered in .org forums, actually It took me like 2 years to realize what happened with TMW's DNS situation after I returned to the game just because I didn't read the flamewars. I dont want to waste my pixelarts with you anymore, so please also remove the bunny monster from your repos: I never said "Yes, push it on git and don't use it, just store it as garbage like the meway's duck"... It's a shame all the pixelartists are gone from your ego world, but now I understand them better.
Please give permission to other servers to use Bunny.
I have those files and would like to use them.
I do find this though, in /home/Downloads/tmwa-client-data-master/license.txt
" graphics/sprites/monsters/bunny.png (pateame,Harufym) (GPLv2), (CC BY-SA 3.0)"

So if (and I did) I downloaded it before it was removed, properly licensed, I and anyone else who did the same can use it (I assume both themanaworld.org and .net and anyone). Hmm, other wise, then all projects that ever had content donated to them would be subject to having to remove stuff if the creator changes their mind? But once it was given to the open-source community it remains for anyone to use, as long as they include the license.

So I believe we (anyone) can use it, and I guess that the only reason it was removed was by choice and not obligation? Right?

Edit: yes it was confirmed for me that the Bunny is free for the open-source, free-sofware, Foss community to use.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by wafolon » 27 Feb 2016, 18:47

Hello -

ok, now I will also say something here, as some may know I have played for years too. Here's the thing: if someone wants to make a fork, they can, as it happens with open source. I don't know who "owned" the data, but forget the legal arguments anyway.

If you (forkers) wanted to do things in a proper ethical way, with the data (again leaving legal aspects aside), you could set up your own server and make it so great that people would start to play on that one and the old server would be less used. Healthy competition and the players win.

How is that fair? If you were not happy with Platyna - fine, start your own server, become better and then everyone will play on yours, but the way it was done was, in my humblest opinion, not fair.

Once again, the point is not whether you were legally allowed to copy the data and change DNS servers, but whether it was OK to do so from a moral and ethical point of view. I think the proper thing would have been to start your own server, let people know about it and compete with Platyna's. If Platyna's had really all those problems and downtime, people would have started to use yours instead of hers.

I myself liked the Platyna events and spawnings and prizes. I think there are less people playing now and there is less to do in the game. I don't see so much novelty, but then it can only be my impression. It was more fun then, but that's perhaps because I have been on so long.

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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by Platyna » 27 Feb 2016, 23:33

wafolon wrote:Hello -

ok, now I will also say something here, as some may know I have played for years too. Here's the thing: if someone wants to make a fork, they can, as it happens with open source. I don't know who "owned" the data, but forget the legal arguments anyway.

If you (forkers) wanted to do things in a proper ethical way, with the data (again leaving legal aspects aside), you could set up your own server and make it so great that people would start to play on that one and the old server would be less used. Healthy competition and the players win.

How is that fair? If you were not happy with Platyna - fine, start your own server, become better and then everyone will play on yours, but the way it was done was, in my humblest opinion, not fair.

Once again, the point is not whether you were legally allowed to copy the data and change DNS servers, but whether it was OK to do so from a moral and ethical point of view. I think the proper thing would have been to start your own server, let people know about it and compete with Platyna's. If Platyna's had really all those problems and downtime, people would have started to use yours instead of hers.

I myself liked the Platyna events and spawnings and prizes. I think there are less people playing now and there is less to do in the game. I don't see so much novelty, but then it can only be my impression. It was more fun then, but that's perhaps because I have been on so long.

W.
Amen. Ah, they finaly unbanned me.
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[The rest of this signature was censored by TMWC's "Freedom" and "Free speech".]
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by Qwerty Dragon » 19 May 2016, 05:37

The [Original] server has been moved to a different, DDoS proof location.
You can get a free shell account on the server - in fact there are four servers each in a different geographic location. It provides powerful mail server with antivirus and spam protection), login.platinum.edu.pl domain and several other domains (also option to have own domain configured), mysql or postgresql db, httpd with priviledge separation, php, cgi etc. all that is limited only by bandwidth and hardware - it runs on 8x 2,5 Ghz Xeon CPU, 32 GB of RAM, 2 TB disk and 100 Gbit uplink. You just neet to write to me at root at platinum.edu.pl, write your login (up to 8 chars, letters and numbers only) and scan or photo of some ID with you name and address on it (it will be not passed to anyone else or published). The server is completely free - no ads etc. Please pass this information to tmw.org maybe you will get around censorship (I am banned permanently by wushin).

Regards.

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In order to avoid criticism do nothing, say nothing and be nothing.
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