The official server flamewar topic
Re: The official server flamewar topic
so you failed!
ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity!
Re: The official server flamewar topic
aaaaaa our queen and savior has arrived
all hail the great borg assimilator
now we'll finally see this show go somewh-
> dns
> unironically trying to convince platyna there is something she doesn't own ever
oh razzy
old buddy chum pal
have I got sixty pages of bad news for you
all hail the great borg assimilator
now we'll finally see this show go somewh-
> dns
> unironically trying to convince platyna there is something she doesn't own ever
oh razzy
old buddy chum pal
have I got sixty pages of bad news for you
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- Warrior
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Re: The official server flamewar topic
My argument is irrefutable. The only reason you get to GM on stolen property is because Platyna did not consider it worth her time or money to pursue a court case. I wouldn't either. For a deserted 2D game written in a stripped down Ragnarok Online emulator? Seriously? Laughable. Personally, I would prefer she donated her data rights to The Project's 501(c)(3). But seeing how you behave, even today, and certainly in 2013, I don't blame her for going in the direction she did, You reap what you sow, Not that it matters. Game is dead. And no one will pursue their claim. So enjoy GMing in your ill gotten gains. Double LOLs that you chose to steal such a worthless thing. It's like heisting pennies. Whatevs. I LMAO everytime I see a screenshot of you counting to three minutes for someone auto-ing on something that isn't even yours. What a way to spend a life. Free entertainment for me.
Re: The official server flamewar topic
nope, you cant hold us accountable to something you cant prove, failure, epic failure.
and still no insults, so sad it has come to that. So sad you cant hold your self accountable
to what you want us to account to.
May i suggest rocking the boat on "Angry Birds" or "duke nukem", you seem to be getting schooled here.
and still, no insults here.
Prsm
and still no insults, so sad it has come to that. So sad you cant hold your self accountable
to what you want us to account to.
May i suggest rocking the boat on "Angry Birds" or "duke nukem", you seem to be getting schooled here.
and still, no insults here.
Prsm
ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity!
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- Warrior
- Posts: 332
- Joined: 18 Oct 2007, 13:38
Re: The official server flamewar topic
Individually those were words. But they don't make much sense the way you string them together. It's like reading bad AI. I think you need a nap.prsm wrote: ↑06 Mar 2019, 02:14 nope, you cant hold us accountable to something you cant prove, failure, epic failure.
and still no insults, so sad it has come to that. So sad you cant hold your self accountable
to what you want us to account to.
May i suggest rocking the boat on "Angry Birds" or "duke nukem", you seem to be getting schooled here.
and still, no insults here.
Prsm
Re: The official server flamewar topic
okay, i will take your word on that, bed time for Prsm.
Please feel free to offer proof of ownership via contract or forum post for Platyna while I sleep.
I would never ask you to provide something I could not, like you did to us.
Till tomorrow
Still insult free .....
Prsm
Please feel free to offer proof of ownership via contract or forum post for Platyna while I sleep.
I would never ask you to provide something I could not, like you did to us.
Till tomorrow
Still insult free .....
Prsm
ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity!
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- Warrior
- Posts: 332
- Joined: 18 Oct 2007, 13:38
Re: The official server flamewar topic
Here is the problem. I already did provide a concise, precise argument to explain Platyna's ownership of the data output on Platinum, using the one applicable (and freely available, it so happens) contract that does apply, the GPL. From your response of "show me the GPL contract", you either have no idea what GPL (the license governing the copyleft of TMW) is, or you are trolling. Either way, I cannot help you understand the thing, I can only tell you what it is. It is your own responsibility to get yourself educated on GPL, or go find some free legal-aid lawyer to explain it to you. That is not my job. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.prsm wrote: ↑06 Mar 2019, 02:21 okay, i will take your word on that, bed time for Prsm.
Please feel free to offer proof of ownership via contract or forum post for Platyna while I sleep.
I would never ask you to provide something I could not, like you did to us.
Till tomorrow
Still insult free .....
Prsm
- Freeyorp101
- Archivist Prime
- Posts: 766
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- Location: New Zealand
Re: The official server flamewar topic
The agreement under which Platinum Linux Non-profit Servers then hosted the TMW Project can be found on [the internet archive].
Translated, the agreement reads:
This became very relevant late 2009. As I understand it, this was the first time when powers from the hosting role were used to defend actions made under the moderator role. For context, sugarcorgit, a longstanding and prominent member of the community, was critically ill and in intensive care, so many players (and developers) sought to pass on their best wishes. Platyna (with full authority as moderator to do so) decided that these threads, and all duplicates, were to be removed, [with an appropriate thread laying out her rationale for doing so] (eg. PMs could be more appropriate).
This was not a popular decision, but she did have full authority to make that decision. This resulted in many angry comments back and forth, ending with Platyna /ignoring Jaxad, rescinding her approval for bjorn to share the eathena account with Jaxad, and indicating that she would use this clause to ensure that anyone (besides bjorn of course) that disrespected her would no longer be able to act as service administrator.
---Freeyorp
Translated, the agreement reads:
The most interesting thing about this agreement is "Sharing the account with third parties is prohibited". As dealing with the unfortunately frequent incidents around the TMW Project could not be run by a single admin, Platyna needed to grant special exception for each additional administrator.Regulations of the platinum.linux.pl server wrote:
Using the server platinum.linux.pl means acceptance of the regulations.
The user agrees to login any of his actions on the server. As well as agreeing to receive letters (email) from the administrator.
The personal data of the user made available to the administrator will not be used for marketing purposes.
The administrator tries to ensure the best possible operation of the server, however, the user accepts the service "as it is", which means that the administrator is not liable for any damage resulting from its non-functioning.
The administrator is not responsible for the content stored by users on their accounts, the liability for the above-mentioned bears only the user / owner of the account.
No abuse of any service on this server.
The administrator defines the word abuse.
The administrator has the right to change these regulations without first informing users about this fact.
The use of this server's services to make life difficult for other network users, post immoral and / or offensive content for any persons or values and is contrary to applicable law is FORBIDDEN.
One session for a given IRC network (IRCNet, EFNet, IFNet etc.). No bots, BNCs, programs interfering with IRC servers and / or platinum server. The IRC client must respond correctly to the CTCP.
All comments, bug reports and other server-related matters are accepted by the administrator only via e-mail, other forms of transmission of this information will be ignored.
The administrator is not a teacher or a nanny. If you want to use this server you must have basic UNIX messages. The system is mostly polonized (including man), so using it should not be a problem, if (and only if) it turns out to be insufficient you can contact the administrator on # Linux-Slackware on IRCNET.
It is also forbidden to any activities aimed at violating the server's security, thus acquiring powers other than those set by the administrator (for experts: exploits, etc.). If you think that it is possible to acquire rights other than those determined immediately, please inform the administrator by email. The breach of server security is also having simple to guess passwords such as: login.data_urodzenia, etc.
Using the account for commercial purposes is not prohibited, provided that the administrator is to be informed of this fact and the nature of the business. This activity must be legal within the meaning of the law in force in Poland, the administrator has the right to refuse to use the account for commercial purposes without giving reasons. If the user derives financial benefits from his account, the administrator counts on giving the platinum.linux.pl server a small part of them in the form of a donation or other, previously agreed with the administrator, material benefits for the project.
Sharing the account with third parties is prohibited.
Unused accounts will be blocked and deleted after some time.
Failure to comply with the above ends, of course, userdel -r.
This became very relevant late 2009. As I understand it, this was the first time when powers from the hosting role were used to defend actions made under the moderator role. For context, sugarcorgit, a longstanding and prominent member of the community, was critically ill and in intensive care, so many players (and developers) sought to pass on their best wishes. Platyna (with full authority as moderator to do so) decided that these threads, and all duplicates, were to be removed, [with an appropriate thread laying out her rationale for doing so] (eg. PMs could be more appropriate).
This was not a popular decision, but she did have full authority to make that decision. This resulted in many angry comments back and forth, ending with Platyna /ignoring Jaxad, rescinding her approval for bjorn to share the eathena account with Jaxad, and indicating that she would use this clause to ensure that anyone (besides bjorn of course) that disrespected her would no longer be able to act as service administrator.
I hope that this helps clarify the then relationship between the host and the project, and how the relationship gave the host leverage in a capacity that is normally unusual for hosts to have over a project.#themanaworld.chat/2009-10-01.121434+1300NZDT.txt" wrote: [...]
(04:42:24) Platyna: Welcome on my ignore list.
(04:42:26) Platyna: BTW.
(04:42:32) Jaxad0127: you said that last time
(04:42:37) Jaxad0127: and yet you're responding to me
(04:42:49) Jaxad0127: w/e
(04:42:52) Platyna: Server rules decides that if someone is going to share ssh account they has to consult the administrator.
(04:42:58) Jaxad0127: bbl, I have class
(04:42:59) Platyna: And administrator has to accept this person.
(04:43:20) Jaxad0127: you did......
(04:43:20) Platyna: So I do not allow you to access my machine anymore.
(04:43:20) Jaxad0127: why else would I have access
(04:43:20) Kage_Jittai: Platyna: I respect you do not want personally topics on the forums, however, they are in off-topic, and we should not try to control offtopic, futher more, this is important to many people of the community
(04:43:25) Platyna: Kage_Jittai: The discussion about this topic is closed.
(04:43:50) Kage_Jittai: Platyna: ask me this was it spam?
(04:43:54) Platyna: Since you Jaxad0127 are a troll, constantly trying to abuse me, I am not sure if you will not hack my machine or fork bomb it.
(04:43:57) Platyna: So get lost.
(04:44:06) Jaxad0127: ...............
(04:44:18) Platyna: thorbjorn: Remove Jaxad0127's access to my machine please.
(04:44:34) Jaxad0127: bbl (as stated easlier)
(04:44:46) Platyna: thorbjorn: I do not trust him therefore I do not wish him to have access to any of my systems.
(04:45:42) Platyna: Not to mention no one disrespect me, except you thorbjorn, will have the access to my servers.
[...]
(09:11:23) Platyna: ?
(09:11:42) Platyna: thorbjorn: I will. I posted why.
(09:11:58) Platyna: thorbjorn: And I never had hopes you will want to understand my reasoning.
(09:12:05) Platyna: thorbjorn: As you usualy never do.
(09:12:42) Platyna: thorbjorn: And I don't want Jaxad0127 to have access to my servers.
(09:13:00) Platyna: thorbjorn: Hate me or love me, I don't trust him.
(09:13:43) Platyna: thorbjorn: I am tired of you treating me on public like a piece of Chocolate Cupcake.
(09:14:01) Platyna: Long years ago people would accept my wise decision and bash the troll.
(09:14:15) Platyna: thorbjorn: You are making our community a pokemon cave.
(09:15:07) Platyna: And you people are jackassess, no one remembers when I argued with thorbjorn, who is stubborn like a donkey for sugarcorgit.
(09:15:21) Platyna: It shows how bloody sensitive you are.
(09:15:23) Platyna: Idiots.
(09:17:39) Bertram: Sounds like I missed a war again. Platyna, you should do that kind of thing in privacy. (Just a piece of advice you will throw away, but I had to say it, at least once.)
(09:18:09) Platyna: In privacy thorbjorn ignores me.
(09:18:13) Platyna: And just gives me orders.
---Freeyorp
(09:58:17) < tux9th> Freeyorp: your sig on the forums is kind of outdated
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- Warrior
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Re: The official server flamewar topic
@Freeyorp Not really. Your selective pulls are epic. Personally, I cannot be bothered.
Missing from that is proof TMW Project had a standard hosting arrangement with Platinum. It only shows that Platinum did, among other activities, offer standard hosting arrangements. I already typed you a huge 7 point post in this thread, proving that there was a lot more than "merely hosting" from Platyna's part, on Platinum, and you have yet to refute any of it. Where is your contract from back then, clearly showing ownership of data outputs belonging to either Elven, Bjorn, or TMW Project? You would need that, since the data outputs of GPL software are themselves not GPL; they fall under standard copyright. So where are the contracts that any responsible founder or project would have made, clearly outlining their property rights? You have that documentation for the Domain Name (also copyright, not GPL), so why not the Data Outputs?
Why do you need a contract, and Platyna doesn't? I will explain. Briefly. The project is GPL. That already is a contract. It contains default presumptions, including that the data outputs are the property of the person running the software, on a machine under their sole jurisdiction. Platyna can make this claim regarding Platinum, and her TMW activities therein (which are far more than "merely hosting"), you cannot, Elven cannot, Bjorn cannot, The Project (not even a legal entity back then) cannot. They would have needed a copyright contract to override the presumption provided by the GPL contract, that would otherwise apply. So where it is?
It could have been made as a simple thing. Something as follows:
Missing from that is proof TMW Project had a standard hosting arrangement with Platinum. It only shows that Platinum did, among other activities, offer standard hosting arrangements. I already typed you a huge 7 point post in this thread, proving that there was a lot more than "merely hosting" from Platyna's part, on Platinum, and you have yet to refute any of it. Where is your contract from back then, clearly showing ownership of data outputs belonging to either Elven, Bjorn, or TMW Project? You would need that, since the data outputs of GPL software are themselves not GPL; they fall under standard copyright. So where are the contracts that any responsible founder or project would have made, clearly outlining their property rights? You have that documentation for the Domain Name (also copyright, not GPL), so why not the Data Outputs?
Why do you need a contract, and Platyna doesn't? I will explain. Briefly. The project is GPL. That already is a contract. It contains default presumptions, including that the data outputs are the property of the person running the software, on a machine under their sole jurisdiction. Platyna can make this claim regarding Platinum, and her TMW activities therein (which are far more than "merely hosting"), you cannot, Elven cannot, Bjorn cannot, The Project (not even a legal entity back then) cannot. They would have needed a copyright contract to override the presumption provided by the GPL contract, that would otherwise apply. So where it is?
It could have been made as a simple thing. Something as follows:
You see? Easy peasy lemon squeezy. So where is the contract?All data outputs from this software, when the software iteration is used by the developers for the software's development, is copyright (Insert either "Elven" or "Bjorn" or "The Project" here), irregardless of who is running the iteration, or the machine upon which is it run. This would include, without limitations, any iterations of this software run under the domain name "themanaworld.org".
Re: The official server flamewar topic
WildX, you fail to understand that, primo: output of GPL'd software is not GPL'd, secundo: the forum and original player files were given to me, and they would be abandoned if I did not accepted them (so, there would be nothing to steal) and tertio: files mentioned in secundo, were copied without my authorization, and this is stealing. I don't think you can contribute anything to this discussion if you fail to comprehend such simple concepts. Persons who had the guts to establish a TE project that relies on stolen data, are worth less than the air they breathe.
Freeyorp, this also stated that the administrator defines abuse, not to mention it also states that the accounts belong to the users and TMW accounts were mine. So you are just doing blatant manipulation. Not to mention you pretend that you don't understand the concept of "giving". TMW was given to me, which means it changed the owner, comprende?
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Re: The official server flamewar topic
MORPG are complex, with a lot of moving parts. Ownership is spread out across these various parts.
1) TMW assets, specifically the code (client and server), art and scripting assets are open source software, registered under GPL copyleft contract.
2) phpBB, the forum software, is also open source software, registered under GPL copyleft contract.
3) The domain name, themanworld.org, was registered to Eugenio Favalli a.k.a. Elvenprogrammer under copyright, and has since been donated to TMW Project 501(c)(3)
4) The output of TMW GPL server software that ran on Platinum is not GPL, as per GPL contract. No formal copyright contract exists to claim the output, so the default condition applies, specifically that the copyright belongs to the person (or organization) running the software on a machine under their sole jurisdiction, which would be Zuzanna K. Filutowska a.k.a. Platyna.
5) The output of phpBB GPL forum software that ran on Platinum is not GPL, as per GPL contract. No formal copyright contract exists to claim the output, so the default condition applies, specifically that the copyright belongs to the person (or organization) running the software on a machine under their sole jurisdiction, which would be Zuzanna K. Filutowska a.k.a. Platyna.
======
In 2013, the output of TMW GPL server software that ran on Platinum was improperly copied by rogue elements, constituting an infringement of copyright against the legitimate owner, Zuzanna K. Filutowska a.k.a. Platyna, and have been used on this site, to this day, in a manner inconsistent with copyright law.
In 2013, the output of phpBB GPL forum software that ran on Platinum was improperly copied by rogue elements, constituting an infringement of copyright against the legitimate owner, Zuzanna K. Filutowska a.k.a. Platyna, and have been used on this site, to this day, in a manner inconsistent with copyright law.
1) TMW assets, specifically the code (client and server), art and scripting assets are open source software, registered under GPL copyleft contract.
2) phpBB, the forum software, is also open source software, registered under GPL copyleft contract.
3) The domain name, themanworld.org, was registered to Eugenio Favalli a.k.a. Elvenprogrammer under copyright, and has since been donated to TMW Project 501(c)(3)
4) The output of TMW GPL server software that ran on Platinum is not GPL, as per GPL contract. No formal copyright contract exists to claim the output, so the default condition applies, specifically that the copyright belongs to the person (or organization) running the software on a machine under their sole jurisdiction, which would be Zuzanna K. Filutowska a.k.a. Platyna.
5) The output of phpBB GPL forum software that ran on Platinum is not GPL, as per GPL contract. No formal copyright contract exists to claim the output, so the default condition applies, specifically that the copyright belongs to the person (or organization) running the software on a machine under their sole jurisdiction, which would be Zuzanna K. Filutowska a.k.a. Platyna.
======
In 2013, the output of TMW GPL server software that ran on Platinum was improperly copied by rogue elements, constituting an infringement of copyright against the legitimate owner, Zuzanna K. Filutowska a.k.a. Platyna, and have been used on this site, to this day, in a manner inconsistent with copyright law.
In 2013, the output of phpBB GPL forum software that ran on Platinum was improperly copied by rogue elements, constituting an infringement of copyright against the legitimate owner, Zuzanna K. Filutowska a.k.a. Platyna, and have been used on this site, to this day, in a manner inconsistent with copyright law.
- Freeyorp101
- Archivist Prime
- Posts: 766
- Joined: 04 Nov 2008, 09:17
- Location: New Zealand
Re: The official server flamewar topic
Oh, I think I finally understand!
By way of example, ircd@ was made directly by Platyna, so even though I was given shared access by similar special exception for account sharing, it would absolutely have been wrong to eg. copy ircd config and services registration database, because ircd account was not owned by TMW even though official channels were there. ircd@ was owned by Platyna. Nobody from the TMW Project pressed me to copy anything there, nor would I have done so if I had been asked. So TMW just moved their official IRC channels back to be on Freenode.
Would it be fair to say you believed that eathena@ was similarly registered to Platyna?
eathena@ was registered to bjorn, and if I remember correctly, testing@ was registered to me, and dev@ was registered to Bertram. Also if I remember correctly, I don't believe Bertram could be contacted about the move, so dev@ stayed on platinum.
If the account was not registered to bjorn, I don't really see why he would be immune to rescinding authorisation under the no-account-sharing provision, nor how he could have legitimately removed Platyna's access to eathena@ without uproar. If I had done that to ircd@ I would surely expect new iptables rules to be added to platinum servers. In any case, it is clear enough that in 2009, when Platyna declared that she no longer wished to host the project, that she expected the eathena files and forums to go with bjorn.
- [X] Platinum Linux Non-profit Servers provided hosting in general
- [X] Platinum Linux Non-profit Servers provided hosting for eathena@ in particular
- [ ] Regulations of Platinum Linux Non-profit Server apply to eathena@
- [ ] eathena@ account was owned by bjorn, with case-by-base provision for account sharing with others that could be rescinded by Platyna
- [X] Regulations of Platinum Linux Non-profit Server state that "The administrator is not responsible for the content stored by users on their accounts, the liability for the above-mentioned bears only the user / owner of the account."
- [X] bjorn (among others) authorized the move
- [ ] Files that were on eathena@ are now owned by TMWC
Would you agree the checked boxes are an accurate summary of what we have built consensus over so far?
I've attached the full log within a spoiler. I do ask everything to think twice and then to think twice again before opening, because there really are some quite nasty things in here. Remember that even John Lennon had record for domestic violence. Life is a series of trials to make us kinder people, and the internet preserving us as we grow is a relatively recent development. We must remember those we respect as they were at their best, or else be left with no role models at all.
---Freeyorp
By way of example, ircd@ was made directly by Platyna, so even though I was given shared access by similar special exception for account sharing, it would absolutely have been wrong to eg. copy ircd config and services registration database, because ircd account was not owned by TMW even though official channels were there. ircd@ was owned by Platyna. Nobody from the TMW Project pressed me to copy anything there, nor would I have done so if I had been asked. So TMW just moved their official IRC channels back to be on Freenode.
Would it be fair to say you believed that eathena@ was similarly registered to Platyna?
eathena@ was registered to bjorn, and if I remember correctly, testing@ was registered to me, and dev@ was registered to Bertram. Also if I remember correctly, I don't believe Bertram could be contacted about the move, so dev@ stayed on platinum.
If the account was not registered to bjorn, I don't really see why he would be immune to rescinding authorisation under the no-account-sharing provision, nor how he could have legitimately removed Platyna's access to eathena@ without uproar. If I had done that to ircd@ I would surely expect new iptables rules to be added to platinum servers. In any case, it is clear enough that in 2009, when Platyna declared that she no longer wished to host the project, that she expected the eathena files and forums to go with bjorn.
I'm glad we agree that Platinum did in general offer hosting, and that the posted terms of service accurately reflect that. So looking at the chain as a whole:blackrazor wrote: ↑06 Mar 2019, 08:40 It only shows that Platinum did, among other activities, offer standard hosting arrangements
- [X] Platinum Linux Non-profit Servers provided hosting in general
- [X] Platinum Linux Non-profit Servers provided hosting for eathena@ in particular
- [ ] Regulations of Platinum Linux Non-profit Server apply to eathena@
- [ ] eathena@ account was owned by bjorn, with case-by-base provision for account sharing with others that could be rescinded by Platyna
- [X] Regulations of Platinum Linux Non-profit Server state that "The administrator is not responsible for the content stored by users on their accounts, the liability for the above-mentioned bears only the user / owner of the account."
- [X] bjorn (among others) authorized the move
- [ ] Files that were on eathena@ are now owned by TMWC
Would you agree the checked boxes are an accurate summary of what we have built consensus over so far?
I have done my best to avoid reference to emotionally charged events for the sake of epistemic hygiene, and was mostly able to do so for the past six years. Unfortunately, it is in the most combative times that powers are unsheathed and relationships are thrown into their sharpest relief, so if we must go there, so be it. I tried.
I've attached the full log within a spoiler. I do ask everything to think twice and then to think twice again before opening, because there really are some quite nasty things in here. Remember that even John Lennon had record for domestic violence. Life is a series of trials to make us kinder people, and the internet preserving us as we grow is a relatively recent development. We must remember those we respect as they were at their best, or else be left with no role models at all.
Spoiler:
---Freeyorp
(09:58:17) < tux9th> Freeyorp: your sig on the forums is kind of outdated
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- Warrior
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Re: The official server flamewar topic
So you're just going to ignore my request for actual proof, in the form of a proper contract or statement of copyright @2013 (or earlier) pertaining to the data files, and continue to misdirect by swamping us with mindless drivel? I understand!Freeyorp101 wrote: ↑07 Mar 2019, 01:03 Oh, I think I finally understand!
By way of example, ircd@ was made directly by Platyna, so even though I was given shared access by similar special exception for account sharing, it would absolutely have been wrong to eg. copy ircd config and services registration database, because ircd account was not owned by TMW even though official channels were there. ircd@ was owned by Platyna. Nobody from the TMW Project pressed me to copy anything there, nor would I have done so if I had been asked. So TMW just moved their official IRC channels back to be on Freenode.
Would it be fair to say you believed that eathena@ was similarly registered to Platyna?
eathena@ was registered to bjorn, and if I remember correctly, testing@ was registered to me, and dev@ was registered to Bertram. Also if I remember correctly, I don't believe Bertram could be contacted about the move, so dev@ stayed on platinum.
If the account was not registered to bjorn, I don't really see why he would be immune to rescinding authorisation under the no-account-sharing provision, nor how he could have legitimately removed Platyna's access to eathena@ without uproar. If I had done that to ircd@ I would surely expect new iptables rules to be added to platinum servers.
I'm glad we agree that Platinum did in general offer hosting, and that the posted terms of service accurately reflect that. So looking at the chain as a whole:blackrazor wrote: ↑06 Mar 2019, 08:40 It only shows that Platinum did, among other activities, offer standard hosting arrangements
- [X] Platinum Linux Non-profit Servers provided hosting in general
- [X] Platinum Linux Non-profit Servers provided hosting for eathena@ in particular
- [ ] Regulations of Platinum Linux Non-profit Server apply to eathena@
- [ ] eathena@ account was owned by bjorn, with case-by-base provision for account sharing with others that could be rescinded by Platyna
- [X] Regulations of Platinum Linux Non-profit Server state that "The administrator is not responsible for the content stored by users on their accounts, the liability for the above-mentioned bears only the user / owner of the account."
- [X] bjorn (among others) authorized the move
- [ ] Files that were on eathena@ are now owned by TMWC
Would you agree the checked boxes are an accurate summary of what we have built consensus over so far?
I have done my best to avoid reference to emotionally charged events for the sake of epistemic hygiene, and was mostly able to do so for the past six years. Unfortunately, it is in the most combative times that powers are unsheathed and relationships are thrown into their sharpest relief, so if we must go there, so be it. I tried.
I've attached the full log within a spoiler. I do ask everything to think twice and then to think twice again before opening, because there really are some quite nasty things in here. Remember that even John Lennon had record for domestic violence. Life is a series of trials to make us kinder people, and the internet preserving us as we grow is a relatively recent development. We must remember those we respect as they were at their best, or else be left with no role models at all.
Spoiler:
---Freeyorp
I wrote one up with minimal effort. It was only three lines of text. Was that too much work for the founder or his co-workers? Just slipped their collective minds? Trusting strangers over the internet? Lost in the mail? Eaten by dog? No contract? Too damn bad. No copyright for you!
Server permissions are like keys. I can give you a key to my apartment, if you need to stay there. Doesn't give you the right to rob the place.
P.S. Stop saying we agree, when we don't. I said Platyna offered hosting services (which is all you proved), but that her duties regarding TMW Platinum iteration were far more than merely a host. Which along with being the person actually running the GPL software, on a machine under her sole jurisdiction, qualifies her to make the copyright claim for the data files, in the absence of a copyright contract to override the presumption provided by the aforementioned GPL contract. No one else is in her position, by GPL contract definition.
P.P.S. I can play that game, too. So, we're agreed that since you have no contract or statement of copyright @2013 or earlier laying claim to the output data files on the TMW Platinum iteration, that those files then fall under the default presumed copyright claimant, Platyna, by order of GPL contract, by which TMW's contractual obligations of copyright are governed.
- Freeyorp101
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Re: The official server flamewar topic
Regarding the repeated requests for a written contract. While we've already seen that a court will consider the impact of a pair of adjacent emoji in a text message as evidence, you might be interested in some of the general rules surrounding validity of online evidence, and how broadly this is considered.
If you do not wish to consider the evidence, why are you replying?
At the very least, Platyna providing written expectation that the eathena files and forums were to go with bjorn in 2009, when she declared that she no longer wished to host the project, is certainly relevant to the interests of any fair court.
From ~2010, I had a shell account (which is much closer to the hosted arrangement in question here, as compared to Azure providing a full VM) with wilcox-tech's public access servers, and they had a similar set of terms of service. I would certainly not expect my IRC logs (created by the irssi IRC client, which is also GPL, not that it matters, as you were the only one that seems to think TMWC believed they could copy data under GPL provisions, rather than having the blessing of bjorn, the owner of the files) to then become property of the server administrators.
You could ask the https://sdf.org/ administrators if they believe they own all the shell account data of their members, or if they made individually named, written, signed contracts for each member. If this is truly how the law works, I suspect quite a lot of people will suddenly find themselves in very unexpected situations.
You might notice the lack of a check on "[ ] Regulations of Platinum Linux Non-profit Server apply to eathena@". With that said, I'm pretty sure that the citations of Platyna invoking those same rules with regard to the eathena@ account, both in saying she could not be sued for eathena data breach and in evicting Jaxad, would make for pretty compelling evidence in a fair court of law.
---Freeyorp
U.S.C. § 7001. General rule of validity wrote:(a) In general Notwithstanding any statute, regulation, or other rule of law (other than this subchapter and subchapter II), with respect to any transaction in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce—
(1) a signature, contract, or other record relating to such transaction may not be denied legal effect, validity, or enforceability solely because it is in electronic form; and
(2) a contract relating to such transaction may not be denied legal effect, validity, or enforceability solely because an electronic signature or electronic record was used in its formation.
You might also be interested in the [statute of frauds], which exhaustively enumerates the activities which *must* require a written and signed contract. Which activity do you believe this falls under?Rule 1001. Definitions The Apply to This Article wrote: (a) A “writing” consists of letters, words, numbers, or their equivalent set down in any form.
These are all pieces of evidence that a court would consider when attempting to determine ownership of the eathena@ account, and many more.
If you do not wish to consider the evidence, why are you replying?
At the very least, Platyna providing written expectation that the eathena files and forums were to go with bjorn in 2009, when she declared that she no longer wished to host the project, is certainly relevant to the interests of any fair court.
That's quite disingenuous at best. The Regulations of Platinum Linux Non-profit Servers make quite clear the rules surrounding the engagement, and hosts do not in general made individually named, written, and signed contracts for each user. I certainly have no such specific agreement with Linode for my servers, nor does TMW currently have any such individual contract with Azure.blackrazor wrote: ↑07 Mar 2019, 02:10 I wrote one up with minimal effort. It was only three lines of text. Was that too much work for the founder or his co-workers? Just slipped their collective minds? Trusting strangers over the internet? Lost in the mail? Eaten by dog? No contract? Too damn bad. No copyright for you!
From ~2010, I had a shell account (which is much closer to the hosted arrangement in question here, as compared to Azure providing a full VM) with wilcox-tech's public access servers, and they had a similar set of terms of service. I would certainly not expect my IRC logs (created by the irssi IRC client, which is also GPL, not that it matters, as you were the only one that seems to think TMWC believed they could copy data under GPL provisions, rather than having the blessing of bjorn, the owner of the files) to then become property of the server administrators.
You could ask the https://sdf.org/ administrators if they believe they own all the shell account data of their members, or if they made individually named, written, signed contracts for each member. If this is truly how the law works, I suspect quite a lot of people will suddenly find themselves in very unexpected situations.
So we have established consensus on hosting in general, rather than hosting of eathena@ in particular. I'll go ahead and mentally uncheck step 2 for now.blackrazor wrote: ↑07 Mar 2019, 02:10 P.S. Stop saying we agree, when we don't. I said Platyna offered hosting services (which is all you proved)
You might notice the lack of a check on "[ ] Regulations of Platinum Linux Non-profit Server apply to eathena@". With that said, I'm pretty sure that the citations of Platyna invoking those same rules with regard to the eathena@ account, both in saying she could not be sued for eathena data breach and in evicting Jaxad, would make for pretty compelling evidence in a fair court of law.
---Freeyorp
(09:58:17) < tux9th> Freeyorp: your sig on the forums is kind of outdated
- Freeyorp101
- Archivist Prime
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Re: The official server flamewar topic
Oh dear. This was the sort of contamination I was hoping to avoid by not citing emotionally charged events. Would you consider taking a short break, so that we may be able to better review the evidence available to us later?
---Freeyorp
(09:58:17) < tux9th> Freeyorp: your sig on the forums is kind of outdated