The Mana World Forums

You thought the conflicts among TMWC members were childish? Then you might be interested in the conflict which is currently causing node.js, the open source framework for server-sided javascript applications, to break apart.

One developer refused to accept a sourcecode change from another developer. This scandal lead to a conflict which came to the conclusion that it will be necessary to disband the development team. Suggested solutions are to fork or to form a new development team under a foundation, either a new one, or an existing umbrella-foundation like Apache or Eclipse.

What was that sourcecode change about?
https://github.com/alex/libuv/commit/1f ... 1f36ec5020
Yes, gender-neutrality of the language in a sourcecode comment. That topic was important enough for some people to jeopardize the future of a software framework whole companies rely on.

By the way: these aren't hobbyists. These people are paid for trying to get along.

This is not because others can be stupid that we need to copy them. (maybe they mimic us?)

I found this link the most useful: http://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/ass ... ur-project

Perhaps we need a Code of Conduct, not just for the TMWC, but for the community?

o11c wrote:Perhaps we need a Code of Conduct, not just for the TMWC, but for the community?

Code of conduct for players is already defined: game rules, forum rules.

Nard wrote:

o11c wrote:Perhaps we need a Code of Conduct, not just for the TMWC, but for the community?

Code of conduct for players is already defined: game rules, forum rules.

Then either:
1. they are not being enforced, or
2. they are not sufficient

because current conduct by players is driving away people who are otherwise willing to contribute to TMW.

There's a code of conduct set on TMW rules, http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 some TMWC members should read it.
Afaik this code of conduct/rule is not just here to ban trolls when admin get out of arguments...

Reid wrote:Afaik this code of conduct/rule is not just here to ban trolls when admin get out of arguments...

Of course not. But when players are afraid to become developers, *something* needs to be done.

o11c wrote:

Nard wrote:

o11c wrote:Perhaps we need a Code of Conduct, not just for the TMWC, but for the community?

Code of conduct for players is already defined: game rules, forum rules.

Then either:
1. they are not being enforced, or
2. they are not sufficient

because current conduct by players is driving away people who are otherwise willing to contribute to TMW.

LOL
Do you mean that GMs and forum moderators do not do their job correctly? My opinion is that they mostly do it correctly,with the rare but noticeable exception of some TMWC members or devs (nobody is perfect).

[*] when players are afraid to become developers, *something* needs to be done.

sure but, before, try to know why they are afraid or why they don't want to develop (anymore for those who leave), listen to them (listen is not agree), and stop thinking they are hostile, even when they criticize things. Stop calling them idiots when they don't agree with you.

o11c wrote:I found this link the most useful: http://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/ass ... ur-project

In the link you quote the following is written:

What isn't an a s s hole
Conflict is good!
You need to differentiate between
personal attacks and
technical criticisms

I may add that criticisms may also apply to project and human management or to other things.

Later in this link it is said:

Problems a s s holes cause to targets
48% decreased their efforts
[...]
25% quit; 20% of witnesses quit!

Do you really think that those who left the project (far more than 25% btw) were targeted by players?

Reid wrote:There's a code of conduct set on TMW rules, http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 some TMWC members should read it.
Afaik this code of conduct/rule is not just here to ban trolls when admin get out of arguments...

RFC1855 is extremely outdated and most of it doesn't even apply to a MMO game. TMW should make it's own social guidelines, as I did for Evol after I realised RFC1855 is useless and no one will ever bother reading it.

.:WildX:. wrote:

Reid wrote:There's a code of conduct set on TMW rules, http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 some TMWC members should read it.
Afaik this code of conduct/rule is not just here to ban trolls when admin get out of arguments...

RFC1855 is extremely outdated and most of it doesn't even apply to a MMO game. TMW should make it's own social guidelines, as I did for Evol after I realised RFC1855 is useless and no one will ever bother reading it.

I didn't talk about doing a new code of conduct to prevent the "do it yourself" sentence. But the big lines of this RFC is good enough to start to work together without creating a thousand of alliance/comitee/whatever.

o11c wrote:

Reid wrote:Afaik this code of conduct/rule is not just here to ban trolls when admin get out of arguments...

Of course not. But when players are afraid to become developers, *something* needs to be done.

If players would have possibilities to become developers, they'd surely become then.
If someone doesn't want to become developer, it can mean various things:
-that he doesn't have time to contribute and wants only to play the game, not be on duty,
-that he lacks skills and knowledge to contribute anything useful,
-that he's afraid that he'd be disregarded for quality of his contribution,
-that he doesn't like open-source licensing model and would like to be paid for his contributions,
-that he wants to spent less time in front of a PC, and wants to take care of other problems he's facing in daily life,
-that he wants to create own MMORPG, from which he could gain profits/cash.
What needs to be done is... to make new players don't leave the game so early, as the new ones can be potential contributors/developers. Implementing 'global chat', as I've posted the topic in Feedback forum - viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17937 would stop few players from ending the game so early.
If you know about people who simply are trolling, telling people to don't contribute - you have ability to influence them to not do so, or just simply banning them. It's simple as that.

gibakugo wrote:What needs to be done is... to make new players don't leave the game so early, as the new ones can be potential contributors/developers.

Yes, this is a problem. I have no clue why 1/4th of newly created accounts never log in even once.

[quote="gibakugo]If you know about people who simply are trolling, telling people to don't contribute - you have ability to influence them to not do so, or just simply banning them. It's simple as that.[/quote]
They're not explicitly telling people not to contribute. But potential contributors do see (and sometimes tell me or someone else - I am sure many more do not) the amount of criticism that is heaped on developers for even the slightest change.

With the current rules/code of conduct, we can't ban people just for criticizing us, even if it is causing great harm to the rest of the community. I don't know if it's possible to change that.

If you read the link I posted - it gives *numbers* for how much harm it causes.

Whew this got semi-off-topic pretty quickly haha.

The players being "hostile" to developers and administrators is certainly a huge issue. It's chased many people away. You have to have a very thick skin to do anything for TMW and most newbie devs do not have that, or see the forums and run away screaming before even trying.

I have a few suggestions based upon my experience moderating a semi-hostile community of millions from a developer/administrator position:

Tell them where we're coming from from a development and gameplay point of view. They may(ok probably) won't agree, but keeping them in the dark will just make them angrier. They get very upset when anything at all is changed, knowing why it's being changed can help pacify and obtain useful input from the more logical people. Explinations should be as non-technical as possible unless details are requested.

Ignore everyone who is criticizing in a non-constructive and/or crazy way. Completely ignore them. Never respond to them or acknowledge they exist. The more you respond the more they feel validated and self righteous. The more you feed a troll... This is huge. Everyone on the team has to follow this pattern or the trolls will never go away.
There is a single exception to the above: Do not let them spread disinformation. If they are spreading misinformaiton and people are actually believing it, post once(not as a direct/quoted reply) to set the readers straight. Give a difinitave response right from the horses mouth, with proof if possible. Do not argue it further or be dragged in to replying further. If you do this right and they make a rebuttal they will just look like an idiot.

If someone is consistently batshit, trolly, and horrible.. Just ban them. It's not worth the hassle keeping them around even if they have some redeeming qualities. In a larger community I would say without warning, but TMW is smaller so I think they should be warned first. Once.

ALWAYS keep in mind that it's the minority that is vocal. People who are happy do not bother giving feedback. Do not let the vocal minority distort your viewpoint on things. They don't run the show, you do. Caveat: Sometimes the minority can become the majority. Watch out for that as it's a sign you're doing something wrong. Statistics can help accurately determine if this is the case.

That's it really. It's pretty simple and in my experience it works!