Skills and Class stuff.

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Tarm
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Post by Tarm » Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:23 pm

Dont forget that I dont dismiss the idea of getting traits after some levels.I'd like them from the start but waiting a couple levels wont hurt. ;)

In your example you used strength and said that a character with more strength will level faster.Yes of course.If he/she is a melee type.Remember that there will also be magic, hopefully some thief type, ranged skill set and maybe others I cant think of now.If made correct you should be able to try all the basic ways to play in the first levels.What kind of game have you running around without any equipment the first levels?Not many.
Besides even if some characters level faster in the beginning doesnt matter much because others will eventually catch up if played correct.
There will always be powerplayers who think being best is everything.I dont think you can get rid of them.I dont like to play that way and Im not alone.Besides their ballpark is PvP and TMW will not be centered around that I think.

If you want to tweak your character while waiting for the next big trait we should use skills.That's what they are for.Having inbetween minor traits seems pointless imho.Also it diminish the fun factor.Traits should be special. :) Not to mention that it can be something of a spamming traits problem.

Traits is a base you build on.Your attributes.The basics just like race.Skills on the other hand is something you can train.They should NOT be merged.
Trait -> Strength -> Attribute
Skill -> Training -> Short blades -> Proficiency
You see the difference?
You can combine them for greater effect but merging is going a step to far imho.
Traits are more profound than skills.It defines your character.Adds personality and specialisation.At least in a roleplaying way.

I agree with your last portion of the post.That's what traits are about.Specialisation at the cost of other "areas".
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Post by Pauan » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:54 pm

Tarm wrote:In your example you used strength and said that a character with more strength will level faster.Yes of course.If he/she is a melee type.Remember that there will also be magic, hopefully some thief type, ranged skill set and maybe others I cant think of now.If made correct you should be able to try all the basic ways to play in the first levels.What kind of game have you running around without any equipment the first levels?Not many.
Besides even if some characters level faster in the beginning doesnt matter much because others will eventually catch up if played correct.
There will always be powerplayers who think being best is everything.I dont think you can get rid of them.I dont like to play that way and Im not alone.Besides their ballpark is PvP and TMW will not be centered around that I think.
I think it is far better and more realistic if everybody starts out exactly the same, and then gradually grows into their character. I don't like the idea that you get to right at the beginning decide to be a mage. That should come gradually, as you build up skills and eventually change classes.
Tarm wrote:If you want to tweak your character while waiting for the next big trait we should use skills.That's what they are for.Having inbetween minor traits seems pointless imho.Also it diminish the fun factor.Traits should be special. :) Not to mention that it can be something of a spamming traits problem.

Traits is a base you build on.Your attributes.The basics just like race.Skills on the other hand is something you can train.They should NOT be merged.
Trait -> Strength -> Attribute
Skill -> Training -> Short blades -> Proficiency
You see the difference?
You can combine them for greater effect but merging is going a step to far imho.
Traits are more profound than skills.It defines your character.Adds personality and specialisation.At least in a roleplaying way.
I don't think you understand what I am saying. I am not referring to skills, but rather to stats. I understand perfectly well that traits should happen once in a while and have a profound effect on your character. I also agree that skills should be learned by doing, and not so much bought or chosen. What I am referring to is stats, strength, dexterity, HP, MP, and so on. As it is right now, using the RO server, you gain a certain amount of points per level up, which you can use to "buy" stats. I think that is silly. Instead, in my idea, we should apply the traits IDEA to the stat system. Exchange strength for magic, dexterity for agility, HP for MP, and so on. What I am suggesting is a way to stop those omni characters. If you must always exchange a stat for a different stat, then it makes it impossible to have an omni-character, encourages specialization, yet also allows a lot of flexibility. What I am suggesting is that you can exchange a couple STATS every level up to a different stat. I am not referring to traits or to skills, but merely using the traits IDEA and merging it with stats. Do you understand?
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Post by Tarm » Sat Sep 02, 2006 3:08 am

I like the old way where you chose which type of character you wanted to be at the beginning.TMW will not be that kind of game.That's why I like the idéa of getting traits at the beginning because then the old system stays a bit. :)
But I say again that it's fine for me if we dont get to specialise or "play as a class" until after a couple of levels.It's not perfect but I can live with it.Why dont we just drop it since you seem to really think this is important? :)

Ah ok.Stats.So basically you want the following to happen when you earn a level?You get a small amount of points to increase your stats (?) and the opportunity to shuffle some of them.Is that correct?
I dont think that's a good idéa.Skills will be important not only to make your character better but also to negate some of the drawbacks you get.
Think about it.For example a mage gets a level, he will probably change stats from strength to intelligence.Suddenly he will get better at casting spells but will not be able to carry as much stuff and maybe take a hit somewhere else.If he chose to exchange something like stamina or agility the difference will be even greater.What Im getting at is that the net effect of gaining a level can be small.Also when you get to the higher levels you'll have a super smart character that cant carry more than a small wooden dagger, having difficulty to avoid an attack from a snail and going into coma when bitten by a moscito.Ok I exaggerate but you get my meaning I hope. :)

I dont understand why you're talking about omni characters all the time.There will always be builds that's better than others and a very high level character should be strong.What's the point in training your character otherwise?
The omni character problem is mostly associated with PvP and since TMW will not be centered around PvP I dont see why you're thinking about this particular problem so much so early in the development.
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Post by Pauan » Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:20 am

And yet, PvP will be a big part in it... at least, if certain people get their way. If there were no PvP, I wouldn't mind omni-characters at all. I would only mind it if PvP were in the game. The reason I'm so concerned about omni-characters is that they're unbeatable... it's just as bad as somebody "god-modding" in an RP.

And yeah... I can see your points about the stat-traits thing. And yet... we aren't going to be using the current system of strength, agility, dexterity, and so forth. It WOULD be possible to create a new stat system that balances everything perfectly, so that the situation you are pointing out would never happen. However, all of these things are far into the future, so argueing about them now seems a tad pointless, ne? :wink:
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Post by Tarm » Sat Sep 02, 2006 12:52 pm

Pauan wrote:And yet, PvP will be a big part in it... at least, if certain people get their way. If there were no PvP, I wouldn't mind omni-characters at all. I would only mind it if PvP were in the game. The reason I'm so concerned about omni-characters is that they're unbeatable... it's just as bad as somebody "god-modding" in an RP.

And yeah... I can see your points about the stat-traits thing. And yet... we aren't going to be using the current system of strength, agility, dexterity, and so forth. It WOULD be possible to create a new stat system that balances everything perfectly, so that the situation you are pointing out would never happen. However, all of these things are far into the future, so argueing about them now seems a tad pointless, ne? :wink:


There will probably be more PvP involved than many players want.PvP lovers are simply the most vocal players so they usually gets their way. :( For example I stopped reading PvP threads a while ago.Argumenting isnt worth it.
There have always been omni or close to omni builds/classes/characters/tactics in PvP mmorpgs.The solution to this is to constantly make patches and balance the game.It's another gameplay testing issue.Sure it helps to have a plan to minimise it before it's implemented but eventually it will get balanced anyway if the game have good support. :)

Sure it's probably possible to create a working stat-traits system.I have no idéa how but since almost everything is possible...... :)
Hm.Maybe we should be talking about it?You know the new server will be finished in a month after all.Isnt that right Elvenprogrammer? ;)
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Post by Modanung » Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:05 pm

I didn't read every single post. But I like the idea of traits. It gives every character it's own personality. And if we're going to implement it I think we should call it like that (personality). And the personality consists of traits.

Traits could be chosen at character creation using sliders. Combinations of certain trait values could be saved as presets. Like the 'night strider', a night person lone wolf. So players could either manualy configure the traits, randomize them or pick a preset.
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Post by Pauan » Sun Sep 03, 2006 1:34 am

Modanung wrote:I didn't read every single post. But I like the idea of traits. It gives every character it's own personality. And if we're going to implement it I think we should call it like that (personality). And the personality consists of traits.

Traits could be chosen at character creation using sliders. Combinations of certain trait values could be saved as presets. Like the 'night strider', a night person lone wolf. So players could either manualy configure the traits, randomize them or pick a preset.
I like that idea. You know, the preset, randomize, etc. stuff. Also, what do you think of using the traits idea for stats Modanung? You know, exchanging one stat for a different one.
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Post by Pauan » Sun Sep 03, 2006 1:40 am

Tarm wrote:There will probably be more PvP involved than many players want.PvP lovers are simply the most vocal players so they usually gets their way. :( For example I stopped reading PvP threads a while ago.Argumenting isnt worth it.
There have always been omni or close to omni builds/classes/characters/tactics in PvP mmorpgs.The solution to this is to constantly make patches and balance the game.It's another gameplay testing issue.Sure it helps to have a plan to minimise it before it's implemented but eventually it will get balanced anyway if the game have good support. :)

Sure it's probably possible to create a working stat-traits system.I have no idéa how but since almost everything is possible...... :)
Hm.Maybe we should be talking about it?You know the new server will be finished in a month after all.Isnt that right Elvenprogrammer? ;)
And yet... if AHarrison's style of PvP is accepted, then there will be enough for everybody: those who don't want PvP, those who do, and those who want hard-core killing action. And... I agree that omni-characters are always an issue. At the same time... there are systems that will minimize it as much as possible. I agree that if somebody has been playing for months, that they should be able to easily kill a newbie... but at the same time, I think if they went up against somebody of an equal level, that they should both have an equal fighting chance.

A month?! Gosh that's so early... I better start writing out all those suggestions I had been planning... ;wink:
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Post by Crush » Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:40 am

About omni characters:
They are also a problem for PvE, because they make teamwork unnecessary. The main reason for forming parties is to combine the strengths and negate the weaknesses of different characters. A tough warrior takes the hits while a fragile mage or archer deals the damage and a healer without any offensive or defensive capabilities on his own supports them all. That's teamplay.

But when you can take damage, deal damage and heal yourself at the same time there is no need to team up with others.

About AHarrisons pvp concept:
It is very unlikely to be accepted. There is a quite large opposition against it in the dev team.
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Post by Pauan » Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:43 am

Crush wrote:About AHarrisons pvp concept:
It is very unlikely to be accepted. There is a quite large opposition against it in the dev team.
And yet it's a very logical system, and the best I've ever seen. You can get the same items in the white zone as in the black... it just takes a whole lot longer. Oh well...
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Post by Crush » Mon Sep 04, 2006 12:40 pm

no reason to repeat the discussion again. We already argued enough about it on irc. when you want to discuss it on the forum again you should do so in the PVP thread:
http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopic.php?t=649
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