CrazyTree Ban

[prsm]

You have self appointed yourself Ruler of the game, forum post after forum post points a finger at you.

You are wrong, everyone agrees about it.
The consensus says you are wrong, the only person that says you are right, is you.

Before we start talking about making a long list of rules to be a friendly bot, or what a gm should act on
its time to make a list of what you are in charge of.

You make it, we will vote on it, and if you earn the power that you have taken, so be it.
if you dont than get off your high horse and start listening to everyone else for a change.

its in your court now. Make the forum post and let tmwc vote on it.

make sure it includes "veto" power, and impersonating a GM, that's a ban-able offense already.

[Cassy]

I'm going to paste some IRC talk to just have one place to talk about this issue.

This is mainly about this "follow the rules" and GM duty stuff:

[20:52:25] <o11c> laugh if you want, I'm being far too lax at demanding that the rules be enforced.
[20:55:21] <o11c> if I was only interested in what was good for *me*, I would have done what the Mana team did in 2009 and just left.
[20:56:16] <o11c> but instead, despite being the single most-attacked and undefended person in the community, I stay. If that's not patience, I don't know what is.
[20:59:31] <Cassy> o11c: I'm really not trying to attack you, but don't you think you are doing something wrong though seeing the reaction of quite a few people?
[20:59:49] <Cassy> I don't want to make a big deal out of it, but you can't be as right as you think you are
[20:59:55] <Cassy> think about it
[21:05:19] <o11c> Cassy: as a lawful entity, I dont really get what the big deal is.
[21:05:24] <o11c> We have rules.
[21:05:33] <o11c> Failure to enforce the rules has led to disaster in the past.
[21:06:00] <o11c> There is no reason to believe that the rules are evil.
[21:06:05] <o11c> Ergo, enforce the rules.
[21:08:55] <wushin> simply put o11c you are platyna and acting a lot like her.
[21:09:14] <o11c> we have rules, that's not something Platyna had.
[21:09:17] <-- turupawn (~turupawn@190.53.48.237.cablemodem.amnethn.com) has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[21:09:24] <o11c> or rather, we have rules that we all agreed on and have the power to change.
[21:09:26] <wushin> Yeah, but you don't seem to understand humans at all
[21:09:30] <wushin> nor politics
[21:09:31] <o11c> True.
[21:09:46] <wushin> Yeah, which every time you try to administrate BAM
[21:09:58] <wushin> Your a great coder
[21:10:06] <wushin> no one is doubting that
[21:10:17] <o11c> But I *do* understand politics more than you might think.
[21:10:36] <o11c> I can quantify how much progress I can get away with.
[21:11:03] <wushin> I think you may havely gravely overestimated that
[21:11:24] <wushin> It's a new server
[21:11:40] <o11c> I am pretty damn certain that "no bots without actual TMWC approval" is going to stand in the future.
[21:11:56] <wushin> It's not which rules or guidelines
[21:12:03] <wushin> It's the administration of them
[21:12:54] <wushin> like I said earlier though
[21:13:07] <wushin> this is a problem from 11+ years of learned behavior
[21:13:44] --> turupawn (~turupawn@190.53.48.237.cablemodem.amnethn.com) has joined #themanaworld-dev
[21:20:39] <Cassy> o11c: i pretty much agree with wushin
[21:22:06] <Cassy> o11c: there's one line you once said that i liked pretty much, it was about GMs enforcing the "don't abuse players" rule and you said something like "we trust our GMs to also use their brain and not blindly following rules"
[21:22:41] <Cassy> so true, but with your recent action and what you just said is pretty much the opposite
[21:22:53] <Cassy> rules, rules, rules
[21:23:25] <Cassy> also you said the GMs were elected by the community so we trust them to handle such issues
[21:24:00] <Cassy> i actually didn't want to say it but...... you weren't elected by the community but cared about it though
[21:24:23] <Cassy> maybe you realize it better by quoting yourself

Channel #themanaworld-dev

[o11c]

"We trust our GMs to use their brains" is not carte blanche permission to ignore the rules, especially in cases where it has been proven to be a bad idea to ignore.

That makes this *worse* for me, since I *do* know our GMs are not dumb, yet they're not enforcing rules that history has proven *must* be enforced.

[prsm]

Sorry o11c, you need to play by the same rules you keep quoting.
Until your role is written down and voted on, i wont recognize your power. You set the rules, now follow them

[Cassy]

"We trust our GMs to use their brains" is not carte blanche permission to ignore the rules, especially in cases where it has been proven to be a bad idea to ignore.

That makes this *worse* for me, since I *do* know our GMs are not dumb, yet they're not enforcing rules that history has proven *must* be enforced.

hehe... you are insecure.
You contradict yourself.
Edit: Prsm noticed too.

I think I already wrote on IRC what I think about what you just posted.

[prsm]

just a foot note to friendly bots, i did go back and check the rules out lined here for only tmwc to read:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=16040&p=126041&hil ... on#p126041

I agree that it does say, no afk activity. But it was written in a time when we did not foresee afk greetings and friendly bots. We need to tweak the rule to include this or consequently we would have to block half the people that play.

We cannot use a rule that was explicitly set out for afk grinding and afk healing to represent the other, to do so would be shorted sighted and antiquated.

[veryape]

just a foot note to friendly bots, i did go back and check the rules out lined here for only tmwc to read:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=16040&p=126041&hil ... on#p126041

I agree that it does say, no afk activity. But it was written in a time when we did not foresee afk greetings and friendly bots. We need to tweak the rule to include this or consequently we would have to block half the people that play.

We cannot use a rule that was explicitly set out for afk grinding and afk healing to represent the other, to do so would be shorted sighted and antiquated.

Agreed, If someone suspects that someone is breaking the rules, contact the gm's and they will handle it from there.

If there needs to be a discussion about rules, take it up with the TMWC.

From my point of view it is really clear cut and easy.

[Shainen]

just a foot note to friendly bots, i did go back and check the rules out lined here for only tmwc to read:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=16040&p=126041&hil ... on#p126041

I agree that it does say, no afk activity. But it was written in a time when we did not foresee afk greetings and friendly bots. We need to tweak the rule to include this or consequently we would have to block half the people that play.

We cannot use a rule that was explicitly set out for afk grinding and afk healing to represent the other, to do so would be shorted sighted and antiquated.

I agree and anyone with a paramount of common sense would recognize Crazy Tree to be exactly as Prsm describes, an afk greeter. But now because a rule was followed blindly without consideration of such things we have likely chased someone away. Even a police officer takes the situation into consideration before blindly issuing a traffic violation. A police officer can execute discretion and diplomacy but a self described friendly community open source project can not? I'm still waiting to see the stubborness absolve here.

[Shainen]

[wushin]

Quoting ourselves from Here

• We never had good rules nor procedures about this
• Nor was consensus obtained or communicated
• We already had existing exceptions
• The block was implemented wrong
• Went against "fanatic" opposition from the majority of the players, GMs & Devs.

+1 to overturn the ban based on said info.

[o11c]

Our rules are plenty good. We have often *discussed* the possibility of allowing more bots, but until one of those discussions results in an actual approval, "no bots" stands.

It really isn't that hard to be extra-careful.

[gumi]

If o11c did bad things in the past then it's the past and we just move on. Please, we should try to stay on topic, the crazytree ban.

*goes back into hiding*

[Reid]

If o11c did bad things in the past then it's the past and we just move on. Please, we should try to stay on topic, the crazytree ban.

*goes back into hiding*

Meko is right, btw, move this thread away from the Court house, drama need to stay out of here.

[Cassy]

Requesting an unban of CrazyTree.

I know I'm fast about this and its host sadly left, but this should be done.

[wushin]

+1 unban crazytree