Not everything is a democracy and that's okay

[WildX]

This subforum is very important and suggestions here are given a lot of weight, but there are times when decisions taken by developers don't match with what the community asks. I just wanted to give a little explanation (based on my personal opinions, not the Team's) of why this happens and why I think it's okay.

The most important reason to me is that most people don't know most things. One can try to explain the intricacies of tmwAthena or Hercules and programming language, but at the end of the day most people are going to want whatever gets them more rewards more easily. While a developer may carefully balance something like experience or item rewards, a community poll would probably (at least in my experience) just choose whatever option gets them to max level and rich. This is not bad, you can't expect every player to be an expert developer, but you have to keep that in mind. Knowing that, some things are best left to someone who knows what they're doing.

To make a real-world comparison, we don't have any countries that are run purely through direct democracy for the same reasons. The entire population may be able to elect representatives to run the country for them, but you cannot ask the people to run the country themselves. Regular people have no idea how the State works. They have no clue when it comes to managing national debt, foreign affairs or complex legislation. It doesn't mean people are stupid, they're just not skilled at those specific things. That's why democracies have parliaments and courts.

The second reason is that everyone wants something different. This is one game, but every player has a different idea of what needs to be developed first. Sometimes it's necessary to push forward with the main plan because otherwise we're just stuck, tweaking different areas of the game according to different community suggestions that don't coordinate with each other. That's how you end up with an unbalanced game where certain classes are obviously better than others and the economy is more broken than [insert any IRL country here].

As a small Open Source game, I like that TMW listens to the community. When I'm the player in any game, I always want developers to listen more. I think we do a great job here, but when we don't listen and people get upset I just wish they'd remember that it's for the overall benefit of the game that some things are decided privately. Very often I'm not qualified enough to take certain development decisions, but I always know who is and I trust them to do what's best.

[jesusalva]

As a small Open Source game, I like that TMW listens to the community. When I'm the player in any game, I always want developers to listen more. I think we do a great job here, but when we don't listen and people get upset I just wish they'd remember that it's for the overall benefit of the game that some things are decided privately. Very often I'm not qualified enough to take certain development decisions, but I always know who is and I trust them to do what's best.

That's the only important part from WildX 's post, and it is a reminder that community polls are consultive - in other words, developers want to hear what the players think - because they are often in doubt about a particular something and want to hear YOU the players what they think about it.

And quoting WildX, majority is good but we hear everyone and try to seek the best for the game and the community.

Well, I also Apologize for being too technical in my last question. And I also apologize for not reading it as normal people do. For instance, this is how I read it:

Do nothing: Do nothing
Lower EXP table to more reasonable values: If downvoted, means players want a challenge.
Add a monster with more EXP, or an item which does that: If downvoted, means players want a challenge. Also express that players want something different from what TMW has been offering them.
Lower EXP table to more reasonable values + Add a monster with more EXP, or an item which does that: Means players want a smooth sailing from 99 to 135

I probably could have replaced it with less technical options eg. "EASY", "NORMAL" and "HARD" where "HARD" is current one; Sorry. I think editing the poll options may cause them to be erased as a safeguard, so I'm not changing them. I'll add this in a spoiler tag though.

[WildX]

This wasn't directed at anyone specifically, just to be clear. It's just a general tought on community feedback V.S. actual development plans. I don't think most people realise how difficult it is to keep a project like this consistently on track towards a single goal. Sometimes the expectation that we have to give in to every player demand makes things ever more difficult. The bottom line is that, yes, anything that is posted in this subforum is highly valued and often guides our decision-making; but it's important to highlight the "suggestions" in "content suggestions".

That's the only important part from WildX 's post

>.>

[HaloNott]

That's the only important part from WildX 's post

>.>
[/quote]

Kekekekeke

Ah well I guess you need to know lots of a mysterious code to help out. Maybe you should make a list of stuff you wish were magically fixed. Make it a thread and Devs can post what they want fixed for the catharsis of just saying it out loud.

Also a list of stuff peeps need to know to do anything lol, just saying.

[WildX]

To prove my point that the community will always vote for buffs regardless of balance:

• Vote to increase exp of snakes, scorpions and spiders by a whopping 200%
• Vote to add a monster that gives even more exp
• Vote to not re-balance the Banshee Bow and keep it overpowered
• Vote to buff tanks by the most significant value offered

All in less than two weeks.

This is fine in Legacy because the game balance is long lost, but it's a perfect exampe of why balance should be up to developers (with community feedback).

[TeZeR.D]

To prove my point that the community will always vote for buffs regardless of balance:

• Vote to increase exp of snakes, scorpions and spiders by a whopping 200%
• Vote to add a monster that gives even more exp
• Vote to not re-balance the Banshee Bow and keep it overpowered
• Vote to buff tanks by the most significant value offered

I disagree.
a) Max level has increased to 135; with current exp rates being employed would probs take close to a decade for a player to achieve.
b) Community is biased towards creation of new content (understandably) hence adding a mob that gives more exp is popular (I don't know why this is a bad thing)
c) Rebalancing the Banshee Bow; it is overtuned in terms of damage but only OP because Lazurite sucks in comparison. Bull Helmet is in a good spot as it provides good damage, tankiness, and is the easiest of the three classes to play. So instead of nerfing banshee, buff Lazurite.
d) The buff tanks vote is super close.
e) Game is exceptionally grindy and with increase of max level makes it exponentially moreso; more exp methods is the logical choice here.

[Archios]

To prove my point that the community will always vote for buffs regardless of balance:

• Vote to increase exp of snakes, scorpions and spiders by a whopping 200%
• Vote to add a monster that gives even more exp
• Vote to not re-balance the Banshee Bow and keep it overpowered
• Vote to buff tanks by the most significant value offered

I disagree.
a) Max level has increased to 135; with current exp rates being employed would probs take close to a decade for a player to achieve.
b) Community is biased towards creation of new content (understandably) hence adding a mob that gives more exp is popular (I don't know why this is a bad thing)
c) Rebalancing the Banshee Bow; it is overtuned in terms of damage but only OP because Lazurite sucks in comparison. Bull Helmet is in a good spot as it provides good damage, tankiness, and is the easiest of the three classes to play. So instead of nerfing banshee, buff Lazurite.
d) The buff tanks vote is super close.
e) Game is exceptionally grindy and with increase of max level makes it exponentially moreso; more exp methods is the logical choice here.

Everything you said is right, cannot agree more.
Also in order to understand what players actually feel, I invite anyone to make a new character and start leveling him and doing quests, soon enough you will understand why most of the new players leave after a couple of days or even less.

[HaloNott]

Everything you said is right, cannot agree more.
Also in order to understand what players actually feel, I invite anyone to make a new character and start leveling him and doing quests, soon enough you will understand why most of the new players leave after a couple of days or even less.

Ehee. I guess. Personally I found there wasn't really much going on apart from grinding the same enemies. When I tried to enter new areas I died lol. This was legacy though.

I usually play Wakfu which has farming and music emotes. I don't like the other versions of mana world because it's too dark and unappealing for me. Like the abscense of androgyny. I don't want to play Facebook lol.

[jesusalva]

To prove my point that the community will always vote for buffs regardless of balance:

• Vote to increase exp of snakes, scorpions and spiders by a whopping 200%
• Vote to add a monster that gives even more exp
• Vote to not re-balance the Banshee Bow and keep it overpowered
• Vote to buff tanks by the most significant value offered

By the way, all of the proposed changes have not pass because the minimum votes is 69%.

Well, the monster thingie have its own way to appurate votes (A+B vs C, then A vs B) so it technically pass.

a) Max level has increased to 135; with current exp rates being employed would probs take close to a decade for a player to achieve.
b) Community is biased towards creation of new content (understandably) hence adding a mob that gives more exp is popular (I don't know why this is a bad thing)
c) Rebalancing the Banshee Bow; it is overtuned in terms of damage but only OP because Lazurite sucks in comparison. Bull Helmet is in a good spot as it provides good damage, tankiness, and is the easiest of the three classes to play. So instead of nerfing banshee, buff Lazurite.
d) The buff tanks vote is super close.
e) Game is exceptionally grindy and with increase of max level makes it exponentially moreso; more exp methods is the logical choice here.

c) actually supports WildX because nerfing Banshee Bow and buffing Lazurite Robe would be equivalents; But the later is hopelessy broken because TMWA does not supports HP values above 32500~32767 which means that's roughly the most powerful a boss can get.

In other words, it is permanently over powered because TMWA have a (rather low) limit to how much damage a monster or a GM (during Kill the GM events) can sustain. That's why buffing Lazurite is not an option.

For curiosity, this affects Kill the GM events (have you ever wondered why Kill the GM, which was designed to be a monthly event, was last done in July, then May, then in Christmas 2018, then Halloween 2017, then January 2017?).
Of course, less GM staff is a reason. Lowered player count is also a reason. Number of crowns in circulation is ALSO a reason. But since 2014 there has been a discussion about how bansheers make this event end too fast. TMWA hit the HP cap, this means there's a red line on how much damage you should be able to do before the Legacy server becomes incapable to provide lasting battles without relying on summons or other strategies. Banshee Bow is above that line. I don't think allowing other items to cross that line would be an idea worth consideration.

In other hand, rEvolt allows whooping 2 billions of HP. (This doesn't means kill the GM events will have 2 billion HP, of course.... But thanks to item modification possibility, it is possible to adjust GM HP to be matching the number of challengers, so GM could have one million HP if a hundred players was attacking them, and only 10,000 if it was done by a single player. Or worse, allow GM to decide how much HP they'll have.)

[Cage]

Well the banshee is one of the hardest to get items in game, you have to lvl up 90 times which might take a lot of time if you are a new player, but once you get it, the game becomes a little more fun to play.
I mean if we keep making the game so hard to play and unfunny, we will end with no players playing the game !

[HaloNott]

If legacy has a hp limit why not just work around it with some kind of resurrect code?

Or maybe a cheat code with players typing, "I dont wanna die." if certain conditions are met?

Maybe legacy can be...Wonky World... viewtopic.php?f=4&t=20748

[jesusalva]

If legacy has a hp limit why not just work around it with some kind of resurrect code?

You can't effectively circumvent monster specifications in TMWA, unless it is some boss that you can trigger something to be done when it dies (and even that may fail).

If you let me praise rEvolt some more; On rEvolt I can adjust the monster parameters during the fight; you'll witness it during Trozz Training (but it is not on test server yet).

Also, as for killing the fun, that's not the purpose. Changing from 90 to 75 should make the Banshee Bow fall within the line. When things are in the line, you can accuse a monster for being too strong or too weak, right now you cannot say that because you have outliners to take in account.

[TeZeR.D]

c) actually supports WildX because nerfing Banshee Bow and buffing Lazurite Robe would be equivalents; But the later is hopelessy broken because TMWA does not supports HP values above 32500~32767 which means that's roughly the most powerful a boss can get.

Honestly, Banshee Bow should do the most damage out of all three classes; probably not as much as it does right now. However, I think the main caveat with Lazurite is that the speed debuff just makes it feel horribly clunky to play; whereas in the other two classes the buff is less noticeable (Bull) or easily counterable with Isis. It's also counter intuitive to making an efficient speed mage; maybe this debuff should be reworked.

Furthermore, late game Bull and Banshee are really the only two viable options if you want to EXP farm (if I was grinding I'd prefer Bull as it's much easier to use). The only real complaint is that there's a damage disparity between the two classes but honestly the banshee should do more damage, maybe not as much as it does right now, but its effectively TMW's equivalent of a glass cannon build. Make the debuff higher perhaps.

I think a rather understated thing people don't realise is the power of Isis. Out of all Illia items it's the most desirable and most powerful (it's also super handy in terms of Banshee as it pretty much directly counters the debuff further making banshee seem more OP).

Also, there are definitely super challenging mobs in the game that are just not part of the base game yet. I mean, Tormenta could have been one but noones decided to fixit yet. Luvia is always challenging then you have:
- Reapers
- Stalkers (though they are easy for a good banshee in terms of Terogan)
- Scythes
- Witch Guards
- SUSAN and her maggots and the other weird ones
And some others I'm probably forgetting that we only see during GM events.

So in reality, I think the damage difference is a small part in terms of balance issues, sure you can nerf the Banshee Bow's damage but you have to take into account that:
a) It should have the highest DPS in the game as it's the hardest class to play apart from underpowered Lazurite
b) It's resource intensive
c) It's only viable super late game
d) It's super reliant on other classes; i.e. a banshee won't be able to solo Luvia (unless you're me)
e) Bull is easiest class and provides a good balance between damage, simplicity and is easily the least resource intensive. Furthermore a high level Bull with pots and right stats can come close to a Banshee's DPS, while also not being a complete glass cannon.
f) Also it's pretty easy to tell the difference between a good and bad banshee too.

And finally when you have an event solely based around whoever can do the most DPS or get the last hit (which I've gotten with a Lazurite and I've seen many Bulls win) you shouldn't be surprised that the class with the most DPS has the highest odds. And I've seen GMs use good tactics in order to lengthen the battle anyway (going invisble, warping, healing).

[HaloNott]

Why take outliers into account? Take an average and go with that. These would be the majority after all? Outliers can wait for events or PvP areas for a better challenge.

[jesusalva]

Why take outliers into account? Take an average and go with that. These would be the majority after all? Outliers can wait for events or PvP areas for a better challenge.

No, for balance, you need to take all: Minimum, so noobs can level up and enjoy the game, even with extra effort involved; Average, which should compromise the majority of quests; Maximum, which should compose the boss and is the only imperative value when doing a cooperative or competitive quest.

While in statistics you disregard outliers; For game balance they must be taken in account. In theory, there should be no outliners in a MMO because: 1- Players will complain it is unfair; 2- We lose average players because the unfairness; 3- We lose the outliners because lack of challenge.

Also: Outliers, in theory, always win PVP challenges.

As for Kill the GM events: If you don't have a Banshee Bow, you should attack the GM disarmed and with potions. This will give you better chances at winning because it is the only fighting style which attack speed can match the highest level players. (Here, what counts is not damage dealt, but attack speed). I thought it was common knowledge but it seems it was not...