[LEGACY] Nerf Banshee Bow?

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Nerf Banshee Bow damage to 75?

Poll ended at 13 Nov 2019, 17:46

Yes, lower it to 75
11
29%
No, keep it at 90
27
71%
 
Total votes: 38
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jesusalva
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[LEGACY] Nerf Banshee Bow?

Post by jesusalva »

The most polemic thread...

This is a simple change, actually. Banshee Bow gives 90 damage. But as it makes you attack 20% faster (which stacks with potions), we can multiply this value and say it is really giving 108 damage. Of course, it's not so simple as multiplying by 1.2 - We have to consider potions effects, and we aren't even considering the base attack speed to compare with swords, for example.

The proposal is making it 75 damage. Why? Because 75 damage + 20% from attack speed bonus = 90 damage which was promised.

Note: Don't be fooled by the looks, I'm lowering 15 damage points in database but I'm nerfing 18 damage points.
Also, assuming a critical gives x2 damage, that would make criticals go from 180 to 150 damage - a nerf of 30 raw damage, or 66 raw damage with Attack Speed bonus taken in consideration (which is wrong).

As a side note: This should be the last balancing patch I'm proposing for Legacy. See also: This also follows the rules for this section - 15 votes, with 69% ratio rounded up (so 11 positive votes at minimum), running for 30 days (or less, depending on rEvolt release date schedule).

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Re: [LEGACY] Nerf Banshee Bow?

Post by Livio »

I would leave things as they are now. Warriors can use speed skill as well and are more durable than Banshee archers.
By the way the damage a Banshee does the 4% of damage he gets and they put some considerable load on mages who back them up.
I would increase the damage of Brawling skill since almost none fights barehanded.
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Re: [LEGACY] Nerf Banshee Bow?

Post by WildX »

I've never had the honour to wield a Banshee Bow but I have seen it in action and it is so broken I wonder why it was allowed into the game but other broken gear like the Assassin Set was not.

Your numbers add up, it's still a very powerful item at 75 damage. I vote for lower.

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Re: [LEGACY] Nerf Banshee Bow?

Post by WarriorPL »

Vote to lower
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Re: [LEGACY] Nerf Banshee Bow?

Post by TeZeR.D »

WildX wrote: 15 Oct 2019, 09:57 I've never had the honour to wield a Banshee Bow but I have seen it in action and it is so broken I wonder why it was allowed into the game but other broken gear like the Assassin Set was not.

Your numbers add up, it's still a very powerful item at 75 damage. I vote for lower.
Assassin gear combined provides +28 agility...
This would make the banshee build even more broken.
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Re: [LEGACY] Nerf Banshee Bow?

Post by WildX »

TeZeR.D wrote: 21 Oct 2019, 20:46
WildX wrote: 15 Oct 2019, 09:57 I've never had the honour to wield a Banshee Bow but I have seen it in action and it is so broken I wonder why it was allowed into the game but other broken gear like the Assassin Set was not.

Your numbers add up, it's still a very powerful item at 75 damage. I vote for lower.
Assassin gear combined provides +28 agility...
This would make the banshee build even more broken.
That's what I mean. How broken is too broken? If you're going to destroy balance with the Banshee Bow you may as well throw in all the other super broken equipment that has not been released in the past specifically because of how broken it was.

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Re: [LEGACY] Nerf Banshee Bow?

Post by TeZeR.D »

WildX wrote: 22 Oct 2019, 11:46
TeZeR.D wrote: 21 Oct 2019, 20:46
WildX wrote: 15 Oct 2019, 09:57 I've never had the honour to wield a Banshee Bow but I have seen it in action and it is so broken I wonder why it was allowed into the game but other broken gear like the Assassin Set was not.

Your numbers add up, it's still a very powerful item at 75 damage. I vote for lower.
Assassin gear combined provides +28 agility...
This would make the banshee build even more broken.
That's what I mean. How broken is too broken? If you're going to destroy balance with the Banshee Bow you may as well throw in all the other super broken equipment that has not been released in the past specifically because of how broken it was.
I think equating the current state of the Assassin Gear to Banshee Bow is wildly overdramatic. The Banshee Bow does a lot of damage but so does the Bull Helmet too.
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Re: [LEGACY] Nerf Banshee Bow?

Post by Archios »

The assassin set was so fun to use with the banshee bow on the Hardcore Server.
I could have imagined it, but wasnt there a monster, a pirate or something, that used to wear the assassin set and an eye patch with a bald head? Or is this from another server?
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Re: [LEGACY] Nerf Banshee Bow?

Post by Hello=) »

I'd say "nerf". Or maybe make potions to have some side effects, like, say, random poisoning chance or so to discourage overagressive gameplay a bit, or at least making it a bit more challenging.

1) Warriors have to survive direct hits by tough monsters like yetis, luvias, jack-os, fallens, ... . This takes some points. So from what I can see, warriors can't generally afford ultra-aggressive setups comparable to bansheers in terms of DPS (to be able to survive what follows). So warriors are even sometimes outshot by mages and stand absolutely no chance vs bansheers. At which point it gets rather annoying: warriors are needed to survive various encounters, yet they can't even get drops from that, despite keeping tough monsters away from more fragile players. Damn, its lame.

2) There're mages and in general mages attacks are quite expensive (lightnings like >12GPs per 1 shot) yet extremely slow (~1.5 second delay per shot for all-speed mage, at cost of being fragile) or extremely short ranged (confringo). So its by no means match to banshee. Well, on open areas it highly debatable, but nearly all tough battles take part indoors/underground, at which point mages look pathetic in terms of DPS yet expensive in reagents. Ok, mages can make it up a bit by spawns, BUT these can be a bit annoying and what worse, spawns of 2 different mages tend to clash. So if there're >1 mage, they can't easily share battle grounds this way. Maybe problem is that magic was initially meant to have 5 levels and I can imagine lvl 5 spells were likely quite a match for banshee or something. But it got never implemented in game.

There was "less gentle" way (#betsanc) to make bansheers slower, giving them clear hint people around think they ruin gameplay for others. Yet they moaned enough to get #detsanc to protect 'em from that and keep being able to screw gameplay for other classes. Cool. Now all events are dominated by bansheers who usurp virtually all valuable drops - just because nobody can do more damage. All greedhead players come with most aggressive setup they can do. Well, that kills cooperation and MMO part hell a lot. So when event happens what do we see? Every greedhead grabs banshee, puts terranite arrows, drinks all potions they can get and ... good luck to compete with it. Especially warriors.

Then I would assume all classes can be vaguely split into "damage dealers" and "supports" and various persons prefer various style in this regard. Well, say, I prefer to play as mage but don't really want to be "full support", rather preferring more offensive combat styles. Sure, I don't mind some support activity but for me it kinda secondary. Some other persons have different ideas and I guess game mechanic could be more encouraging for supports as well, but its another story.

One of most annoying places where bansheers (at least potioned) tend to be exceptionally annoying is xmas battles. Confined area + dense monsters = all drops go to bansheers. Unless they voluntarily drop leftovers to others at their discretion. Which isn't what I would call cool.

This said, I wonder if weapons like swords or arrows can easily do something like explosive/splash damage? There is equally annoying problem: I don't really like all Fluffy hunters top dominated by mages alone. Other classes should have their chance to get there as well. Fluffs were never meant to be exclusive to mages or so. And even less fair current game mechanics doesn't allows to beat top3 or so. Players don't play worse or something these days so it isnt' their fault, right? Well, guess balancing is a Female dog, wolf, fox or otter. But it's a known issue for all RPGs... :D

p.s. seems I'm unable to cast my formal vote here :\. So, well, ok... [x] that suxx :P
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Re: [LEGACY] Nerf Banshee Bow?

Post by jesusalva »

Well, we could always make TMW a standard P2W game and start selling Banshee Bow for just $ 9.99 :lol:

(This is a lame attempt at making a joke, do note there is no currency specified. US Dollar code is US$, a single $ stands for 'dollar' which is no currency without specifying the country it is related to.)

Either way, I am yet to check these polls for vote duplication, void them, recalculate manually the new scores, and see if when neither "yes" or "no" reached the 69% minimum after duplicates are removed. Because I can either be conservator (Default to no, that's what you use on legal votes), progressist (Default to second option regardless of what it is), or what I tend to do when polls are not binding like those - See what options we have between the yes and no.

And hopefully, we'll have an update by the 18th. Don't forget the poll about Christmas Rewards for overleveled players is still open until then!
t3st3r wrote: 16 Dec 2019, 05:41 This said, I wonder if weapons like swords or arrows can easily do something like explosive/splash damage? There is equally annoying problem: I don't really like all Fluffy hunters top dominated by mages alone. Other classes should have their chance to get there as well. Fluffs were never meant to be exclusive to mages or so. And even less fair current game mechanics doesn't allows to beat top3 or so. Players don't play worse or something these days so it isnt' their fault, right? Well, guess balancing is a female dog, wolf, fox or otter. But it's a known issue for all RPGs... :D
Not in TMWA. in rEvolt, however, it is easy to make swords cause splash damage, but not possible with arrows (and doesn't even makes sense, given that in absence of gunners, bows are meant to be the highest 1v1 damage dealers. In this sense, Banshee in TMW is broken, because it is capable to be the best damage dealers outside 1v1 situations.)
(I know Banshee Bow is rare, but rarity and game design should not confuse themselves. In theory, it would be the best design if Banshee Bow had an instakill chance -- wait, only rEvolt supports this.)

(I would suggest mages being best damage dealers in 1vMULT situations - glass cannons, splash based - and warriors being either an all-rounder class or, when using shields, the best in MULTv1/MULT situations, although that overlaps with support mages.)

Either way, not much that can be done for TMWA.
I'm sorry, but I can't do what I can't do :alt-4:
I can only try to patch up a few wounds, but keep in mind TMW Legacy is "stable" (thus, the Legacy title), so dramatic changes are not expected; At most a few tweaks in hope to make game more enjoyable.

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Re: [LEGACY] Nerf Banshee Bow?

Post by GNU+Linux »

Dang, it seems like I miss voting on that in time too. Poll ended last Friday. Otherwise I think I would have voted to lower it to 75 just to make the classes a bit more balanced :) at least until Mages and Warriors can do more dps. Warriors with bull helm don't do nearly as much dps as banshees do. Honestly, I wouldn’t mind keeping the banshee dps the same, if only bull warriors and lazurite mages using #ingrav did a comparable amount of dps.
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Re: [LEGACY] Nerf Banshee Bow?

Post by Hello=) »

jesusalva wrote: 16 Dec 2019, 14:34 because it is capable to be the best damage dealers outside 1v1 situations.)
This said...
1) Mages in TMW already can be like this - in some situations. But it usually outside of hard MMO-style battles.
2) As for TMWA... I see at least some things just temporarily replace weapons? Maybe it an option instead of straightforward "make sword doing splash damage"?
3) There is quite some 1v1 situation that needs consideration and better to be balanced: PvP. I'd say comparable levels of various classes should have at least some chance to kill others to make it fun. When there is just 1 winning combo that is known to everyone, it gets rather boring.

Though wait, I think I got funny idea on how to (mis)use these things as some advantage :D (uhm, where is kytty?)
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Re: [LEGACY] Nerf Banshee Bow?

Post by SpeedDuck »

I voted to nerf the damage, even though I have a banshee archer. It is a really powerful weapon and definitely outdoes all of the classes. Mages and warriors have quite a disadvantage.
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Re: [LEGACY] Nerf Banshee Bow?

Post by jesusalva »

Sockpuppeting criteria for this poll was as follows:

Zero posts - not counted. I know I've deleted at least one legit vote on this but I wanted to keep consistency.
Banned - not counted.
Written votes - not counted.

I thought in looking for IP sharing and etc., some were reeeeeeeally suspcious, but I decided to keep things simple, this is not a GM election to deserve so much spotlight.
Besides, the votes which could have been duplicate were the same as those I've thought to be legit and erased, so the final vote score won't change. (this is not a copy-paste)

So, as follows:
NERF the bow - 44%
DON'T NERF the bow - 56%

METHOD 1, BY GROUP OF INTENT
(recommended)
Per group of intent method:
NERF the bow - 44%
DON'T NERF the bow - 56%

Required vote threshold to pass: 69%
POLL HAS NOT PASS

METHOD 2, BY COMPROMISE
(NOT recommended)
If we multiply the values, the "average" compromise, ignoring intention, would be:
83 damage points (rounded down)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neither group of intention managed to get the required 69% vote threshold.

For reference, if I count votes done on comments, the ratio is almost 50% on both sides.

Well, Banshee Bow itself is not a real problem as Hello=) pointed out, it gets worst because concentration potions.

I have two viable alternatives:
  • Lower banshee bow damage from 90 to 85.
  • Put a small cooldown wait between Concentration Potions. (like, 5 seconds)
Second option requires more code, so I'm going with the first one.

If you disagree with how I've implemented this, or if you would like the damage to go back to 90, please open another poll, also to run for 30 days.
Please keep in mind the decision to ignore the 69% vote requirement was entirely upon me. The rule haven't changed, I merely did an exception this time and used an average, which is a discouraged course of action.

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